AutoTheory RE: Confusing

[normen]

I'm starting to get it. So if I'm taking C aeolian as the example.... I'm not in A minor. I'm taking the notes of the C major scale and starting from A (the 6th note) as if it was the I. So ABCDEFGA. I.E. A minor. So I'm taking the intervals I found by starting at the 6th note of C major and transposing them down so that they start on C instead of A. So aeolian mode is really just a natural minor scale. Why it needs to be labeled differently is beyond me but it's interesting to figure out the logic behind it

Oh it can be way more confusing than that Actually "minor" and "major" as used in classical music only refers to the third. So mixolydian is a "major" scale. Jazz musicians actually mean the whole minor or major scale when they use that word.

Generally its much easier since western music went to the well-tempered notes, before that each scale in each key had infinitesimal different intervals. So now we only have these 12 slightly mistuned notes which makes things much easier and jazz possible at all

[miahluvdd]

I'm starting to get it. So if I'm taking C aeolian as the example.... I'm not in A minor. I'm taking the notes of the C major scale and starting from A (the 6th note) as if it was the I. So ABCDEFGA. I.E. A minor. So I'm taking the intervals I found by starting at the 6th note of C major and transposing them down so that they start on C instead of A. So aeolian mode is really just a natural minor scale. Why it needs to be labeled differently is beyond me but it's interesting to figure out the logic behind it

I don't have this re so I don't know how the re is set up. But this is not true in music theory. C aeolian would be the same as the Eb major scale, just starting on C instad of Eb. A aeolian is the same as C major.

[miahluvdd]

Here's another way of thinking of modes that makes sense for some people:

1. Memorize the modes in their proper order:

Ionian
Dorian
Phrygian
Lydian
Mixolydian
Aeolian
Locrian

Think of them as the first mode, fourth mode, etc

Now pick a scale. Let's use a c major scale for an example because it's all white keys on a piano. Play from c to c using only notes from the c major scale (all white keys) that's C Ionian also known as a major scale. Play from the second note of the scale from D to D play in the notes of the C major scale and you have D Dorian mode. E to E all white notes is E Phrygian and so on. A to A with all white keys is an A aeolian also known as a natural minor scale.

For other keys, if you know the scale, and the order of the mode names, you can work any mode out.

Let's say that the song is in the key of C. That means that you're using a C major scale for everything if you stick to diatonic or "normal as relates to scale" harmony. For a D chord in a song in the key of C, you would normally use a D Dorian mode. This would correspond to a D m chord. To get out of the box, try a D mixolyxian there instead and you've jumped out of key "into the key of G" for a temporary alternate chord color.

[GRIFTY]

C minor is the relative minor to Eb major. If you play the notes of Eb major starting at C and ascending an octave to the next C, you have just played a C minor scale. The same with CM/Am

[miahluvdd]

C minor is the relative minor to Eb major. If you play the notes of Eb major starting at C and ascending an octave to the next C, you have just played a C minor scale. The same with CM/Am

Correct. Saying C Aeolian is another way of saying C natural minor scale.

[miahluvdd]

C minor is the relative minor to Eb major. If you play the notes of Eb major starting at C and ascending an octave to the next C, you have just played a C minor scale. The same with CM/Am

Correct. Saying C Aeolian is another way of saying C natural minor scale.

I think one possible answer as to why there has to be multiple names is that the modes came first and of the 7 modes, as western music developed that people were naturally drawn got the Ionian and Aeolian modes and they became known by a more common or informal name, major and minor scales. That's just a guess though...

[GRIFTY]

up a bit you had 'corrected' me and i was responding to you, saying, in fact i was not incorrect.  but it's alright.  i have something of a grasp on it now. 

i have a question though....  can the modes be in key with each other? 

for example.... if i play in B 'locrian' (which if i understand correctly would be BCDEFGAB) would i still be in tune with C ionian?  which would be the "true" key?

[normen]

up a bit you had 'corrected' me and i was responding to you, saying, in fact i was not incorrect.  but it's alright.  i have something of a grasp on it now. 

i have a question though....  can the modes be in key with each other? 

for example.... if i play in B 'locrian' (which if i understand correctly would be BCDEFGAB) would i still be in tune with C ionian?  which would be the "true" key?

If you mean if the single notes are the same frequencies.. With well-tempered instruments yes, its actually the same frequencies. With true pythagorean tuning or other tunings no, the notes would differ slightly.

If you mean the root note, that depends on your composition. You might have the same chords and notes as C major but because your composition has the B as its tonic it will not sound like major.

[miahluvdd]

up a bit you had 'corrected' me and i was responding to you, saying, in fact i was not incorrect.  but it's alright.  i have something of a grasp on it now. 

i have a question though....  can the modes be in key with each other? 

for example.... if i play in B 'locrian' (which if i understand correctly would be BCDEFGAB) would i still be in tune with C ionian?  which would be the "true" key?

Sorry about that - I must have misread it. Just trying to help. Forgive me if I misunderstood you earlier.

B locrian would have the same chords as c major except the root chord that the chords resolve to would be B diminished chord and not C major. That is the B diminished would be the I chord of the key. The chorus or main part of the song would gravitate to and head towards Bo. Make sense?

So in C major (C Ionian) a common progression is the II V I cycle which is Dm G major and C major in C major. In B locrian the the II V I would be C major, F major, and B diminished.

Play that sequence and you'll quickly realize that it doesn't have a strong sense of resolving which is why largely popular music hasn't gravitated to Locrian mode.

If we take the same scenario and apply it to the minor scale we would get. A Aeolian mode (the key of A minor) and the II V I cycle would be Bo Em Am. Play those chords and you'll hear how it's not a strong conclusion sound what classical musicians would call an authentic cadence. To
change it to the strong resolve that we're used to hearing in major mode music invented the harmonic minor scale where they took the natural minor scale (the aeolian mode) and raised the seventh scale tone. In Am that would mean a G# and not a G natural which changes the V to E major and not E minor. Go play Bo E7 and Am and you'll hear a typical II V I progression in Aeolian (minor) mode. They've altered the scale to get stronger resolved.

So theoretically, go back to the B locrian and see what you could alter to make the II V I sound standard. An obvious one would be to sharp the fifth scale tone so that the II V I cycle would be C and then F#o then Bo. Weird? You betcha. Now try something else on the C and the F to make it resolve more naturally to end in the I which is Bo. Figure out how to alter the locrian scale to sound clever and you've entered the world of Herbie Hancock and modern jazz! And most people still won't appreciate it.

[pedrocaetanos]

can the modes be in key with each other? 

for example.... if i play in B 'locrian' (which if i understand correctly would be BCDEFGAB) would i still be in tune with C ionian?  which would be the "true" key?

If you play in B Locrian your key is B
If you play in C Ionian your key is C

That's two different tonal centers. B and C.

There's a thing called bitonality that involves having two keys at the same time, but that's an advanced concept and usually reserved for esoteric music.

You will notice that if you try to improvise something in B Locrian there will be some tendency to end up in C Ionian - that's because some keys are weaker than others (for reasons such as miahluvdd explained). Locrian is not a good example. Strongest is Major (Ionian), next is Minor (Aeolian), preferably in it's harmonic variation. Use those for some examples for your idea. (But let's leave the Harmonic out of this - it doesn't fit into the usual modes)

Play C Ionian and A Aeolian at the same time. Which is the true key? Weird question hey? Can you tell while playing? 2 simple rules to tell the real key:
1) it's the first and the last chord (meaning, music begins and ends in C chord, C is the key - notice I'm not saying if the chord is major or minor, doesn't matter, see below)
2) If you play the note all the time during the music it doesn't sound that bad
(as with every rules, there's always exceptions, and rely more on 1 than 2)

But is it C major or C minor? Look at the 3rd note of the scale:
a) Eb - then it's C minor
b) E - then it's C major

To get a good grasp of all this get in front of a keyboard:
1st) With Left hand keep playing always the A note for bass, with right hand improvise something using several white keys. Start in A note, do it for a while, end in A note.
2nd) With Left hand keep playing always the C note for bass, with right hand improvise something using several white keys. Start in C note, do it for a while, end in C note.

Summary:
If you play in A Aeolian your key is A
If you play in C Ionian your key is C

Let's got for a weirder experience: Let's try C Aeolian and C Ionian at the same time.
Is this bitonality? no and yes. No because, the tonal center is the same, C, thus just one. Yes, because the "flavor" is too different, one scale is minor the other is major.
You will also notice that if you use the C Ionian for the chords and the C Aeolian for the melody there are some resemblances with blues...

[miahluvdd]

can the modes be in key with each other? 

for example.... if i play in B 'locrian' (which if i understand correctly would be BCDEFGAB) would i still be in tune with C ionian?  which would be the "true" key?

If you play in B Locrian your key is B
If you play in C Ionian your key is C

That's two different tonal centers. B and C.

There's a thing called bitonality that involves having two keys at the same time, but that's an advanced concept and usually reserved for esoteric music.

You will notice that if you try to improvise something in B Locrian there will be some tendency to end up in C Ionian - that's because some keys are weaker than others (for reasons such as miahluvdd explained). Locrian is not a good example. Strongest is Major (Ionian), next is Minor (Aeolian), preferably in it's harmonic variation. Use those for some examples for your idea. (But let's leave the Harmonic out of this - it doesn't fit into the usual modes)

Play C Ionian and A Aeolian at the same time. Which is the true key? Weird question hey? Can you tell while playing? 2 simple rules to tell the real key:
1) it's the first and the last chord (meaning, music begins and ends in C chord, C is the key - notice I'm not saying if the chord is major or minor, doesn't matter, see below)
2) If you play the note all the time during the music it doesn't sound that bad
(as with every rules, there's always exceptions, and rely more on 1 than 2)

But is it C major or C minor? Look at the 3rd note of the scale:
a) Eb - then it's C minor
b) E - then it's C major

To get a good grasp of all this get in front of a keyboard:
1st) With Left hand keep playing always the A note for bass, with right hand improvise something using several white keys. Start in A note, do it for a while, end in A note.
2nd) With Left hand keep playing always the C note for bass, with right hand improvise something using several white keys. Start in C note, do it for a while, end in C note.

Summary:
If you play in A Aeolian your key is A
If you play in C Ionian your key is C

Let's got for a weirder experience: Let's try C Aeolian and C Ionian at the same time.
Is this bitonality? no and yes. No because, the tonal center is the same, C, thus just one. Yes, because the "flavor" is too different, one scale is minor the other is major.
You will also notice that if you use the C Ionian for the chords and the C Aeolian for the melody there are some resemblances with blues...

This is a good way of thinking about it and I would agree with these points! I would add - to answer more fully the original question - that some songs go from minor mode to major mode and back again. That is, some songs have a chorus and intro and most of the song in C major and yet the tonality center shifts in a verse to minor mode. (Am) as stated you can tell when this happens because suddenly the Am chord feels like the I. A clue to this happening is when you're playing in the key of C and perhaps a verse or another section of a song goes to E7 then Am and ends there. The E7 is from Am harmonic minor and not C major. It's a derivative of. A aeolian and the song has shifted tonal centers.

Another common trick is for a song to suddenly shift in bridge section or later section to minor mode matching the name of the major key that you had been in. So you might be playing in C major and suddenly you're playing in C minor which is akin to Eb. You go from chords like C Dm F to Cm Eb Fm G7. This happens more often than one might think. Especially in 1980's era pop music. That's what the above post meant when he talked about a song going from C Ionian to C Aeolian.

Locrian is indeed a "weak mode" that people largely haven't done much with because of the lack of strong resolutions of the diatonic (naturally found in the scale) chords. Stronger modes that have become more "developed" in jazz - beyond the obvious Ionian and Aeolian or major and minor scales -- are the Dorian, Phrygian, and Lydian modes. Dorian mode is essentially modal jazz (think " So What" by Miles Davis). The chords that naturally derive from altering the Phrygian scale as I proposed experimentally with the locrian earlier in this post are often used to add color to major mode songs and chord progressions. The Lydian mode (In the altered form of Lydian Augmented) is used to add color to typical progressions in the minor mode songs on modern jazz.

It could be argued that the blues, which traditionally puts the dominant 7 chord on everything is essentially applying the Mixolydian mode to conventional theory because the Mixolydian essentially adds the dominant 7th (b7) to a major scale. Many Jazz musicians are taught to think of it this way. Perhaps the blues were the first area in this attempt to branch out beyond major and minor modes? It's fun to think about and consider by people who enjoy jazz theoretics like myself.

[pedrocaetanos]

some songs have a chorus and intro and most of the song in C major and yet the tonality center shifts in a verse to minor mode. (Am)

Or the opposite.
New season of Game of Thrones is going on. First 4 bars of the title tune are major, and then shift to minor (same chord) - this will be the tonality (minor) for the remainder of the tune, and the key is the root of the chord.

 you might be playing in C major and suddenly you're playing in C minor which is akin to Eb. You go from chords like C Dm F to Cm Eb Fm G7. This happens more often than one might think. Especially in 1980's era pop music.

Interesting, do you have an example in mind?

It could be argued that the blues, which traditionally puts the dominant 7 chord on everything is essentially applying the Mixolydian mode to conventional theory because the Mixolydian essentially adds the dominant 7th (b7) to a major scale. Many Jazz musicians are taught to think of it this way. Perhaps the blues were the first area in this attempt to branch out beyond major and minor modes? It's fun to think about and consider by people who enjoy jazz theoretics like myself.

I vaguely hinted in that direction in[url=http:// http//www.reasontalk.com/post/show_single_pos ... stcount=23] [/url]http://www.reasontalk.com/post/show_sin ... stcount=23
But even so, it only works the "jazz way", where the chord defines the scale, instead of having only one common scale for the whole piece.
Say you have a blues in C with chords C7, F7, G7. As I understand, you are saying to consider the scale as C Mixolydian, F Mixolydian, and G Mixolydian, depending on which chord is being played.
I suppose it's a good way to theorize the blues solos, having them tuneful, whithout relying solely on intuition. With the added the bonus that you get more notes than just with the root pentatonic. On the downside you start to sound more jazzy than bluesy, and specially because thinking that way there will be a predominance of different notes (I say downside because that may not be intended, when compared with the vison pentatonic minor over 3 7th chords)
Even so so, you still have to put the blue note in, so now you will have 3 mixolydians with an extra altered note, different in each of them. Blues refuses all attempts to be theorized!
Interestingly, if we merge those 3 mixolydians plus the blue note, we find that we are using allmost all the 12 chromatic notes. When in C key, only Db and Ab are left out - So, Blues can be seen as a scale of 10 notes (plus a set of guidelines about which ones to play and when ). Maybe it's a chromatic!
Wikipedia mentions this kind of theorization, but they mess up the number of notes in the scale (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blues_scale)

[selig]

I'm starting to get it. So if I'm taking C aeolian as the example.... I'm not in A minor. I'm taking the notes of the C major scale and starting from A (the 6th note) as if it was the I. So ABCDEFGA. I.E. A minor. So I'm taking the intervals I found by starting at the 6th note of C major and transposing them down so that they start on C instead of A. So aeolian mode is really just a natural minor scale. Why it needs to be labeled differently is beyond me but it's interesting to figure out the logic behind it

Actually, C Aeolian (minor) is based on a major scale that starts on Eb. Remember the relative minor is a minor third BELOW the relative major of any scale. You've combined C minor/Aeolian and A minor/Aeolian in your above description.

The only modes that have "two" names are major/Ionian and minor/Aeolian. 

Here's the simplest way to understand the 7 basic modes IMO:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mode_(music)

[pedrocaetanos]

And a nicely organized list of more scales and modes: http://www.pluck-n-play.com/en/scale-list.html

And a not so organized list, but linking to more information: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mu ... _and_modes

[miahluvdd]

I'm starting to get it. So if I'm taking C aeolian as the example.... I'm not in A minor. I'm taking the notes of the C major scale and starting from A (the 6th note) as if it was the I. So ABCDEFGA. I.E. A minor. So I'm taking the intervals I found by starting at the 6th note of C major and transposing them down so that they start on C instead of A. So aeolian mode is really just a natural minor scale. Why it needs to be labeled differently is beyond me but it's interesting to figure out the logic behind it

Actually, C Aeolian (minor) is based on a major scale that starts on Eb. Remember the relative minor is a minor third BELOW the relative major of any scale. You've combined C minor/Aeolian and A minor/Aeolian in your above description.

The only modes that have "two" names are major/Ionian and minor/Aeolian. 

Here's the simplest way to understand the 7 basic modes IMO:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mode_

(music)

Which is what I was trying to convey in my original response to Grifty.  Well done, Selig!

[miahluvdd]

 you might be playing in C major and suddenly you're playing in C minor which is akin to Eb. You go from chords like C Dm F to Cm Eb Fm G7. This happens more often than one might think. Especially in 1980's era pop music.

Interesting, do you have an example in mind?

There are several examples, none of which are coming to mind at the time.  I just know that I've come across this many times as a musician.  Your example of the recent Game of Thrones is a great illustration of this -- I'm glad that I'm not the only person who has the "musician's curse" of analyzing the chords and tonality of every song and music that I hear! 

The first example to come to mind as I type this is a religious song from the black gospel genre:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LY06VKymkCE

I think that the song is in Db.  Fast forward to the ending vamp and you'll hear them go from Db major mode to Db minor mode.  And the tonality is centered around Dbm7 and they even play a Db minor blues scale lick as a turnaround. 

It could be argued that the blues, which traditionally puts the dominant 7 chord on everything is essentially applying the Mixolydian mode to conventional theory because the Mixolydian essentially adds the dominant 7th (b7) to a major scale. Many Jazz musicians are taught to think of it this way. Perhaps the blues were the first area in this attempt to branch out beyond major and minor modes? It's fun to think about and consider by people who enjoy jazz theoretics like myself.

I vaguely hinted in that direction in[url=http:// http//www.reasontalk.com/post/show_single_pos ... stcount=23] [/url]http://www.reasontalk.com/post/show_sin ... stcount=23
But even so, it only works the "jazz way", where the chord defines the scale, instead of having only one common scale for the whole piece.
Say you have a blues in C with chords C7, F7, G7. As I understand, you are saying to consider the scale as C Mixolydian, F Mixolydian, and G Mixolydian, depending on which chord is being played.
I suppose it's a good way to theorize the blues solos, having them tuneful, whithout relying solely on intuition. With the added the bonus that you get more notes than just with the root pentatonic. On the downside you start to sound more jazzy than bluesy, and specially because thinking that way there will be a predominance of different notes (I say downside because that may not be intended, when compared with the vison pentatonic minor over 3 7th chords)
Even so so, you still have to put the blue note in, so now you will have 3 mixolydians with an extra altered note, different in each of them. Blues refuses all attempts to be theorized!
Interestingly, if we merge those 3 mixolydians plus the blue note, we find that we are using allmost all the 12 chromatic notes. When in C key, only Db and Ab are left out - So, Blues can be seen as a scale of 10 notes (plus a set of guidelines about which ones to play and when ). Maybe it's a chromatic!
Wikipedia mentions this kind of theorization, but they mess up the number of notes in the scale (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blues_scale)

What you're describing here with all of the notes being used is essentially what Bebop is founded upon -- that no note is a wrong note if approached in a right way.  Every note can be made to sound "right" on any chord if handled correctly.  That's what led to Bebop and Post Bop Jazz and what caused Jazz "to die" to the average listener of music.  What I mean by that is that when Bebop hit with these principles, jazz ceased to be the popular music and became a niche.  I think the points that you bring up are interesting in that they show that Bebop did in fact come from the Blues and you can see the line of thinking that led from one to the other.

Another simple way to describe the blues that works at least in my mind's eye is to view the Blues as breaking the rules in several different ways.  One being that they put the dominant 7 (b7) on everything regardless of whether or not it is found diatonically.  (in other words rather than playing a maj7 on the I and IV, they play dominant 7ths in both places).  The other being that they often play the traditional minor chords of a major mode (IIm IIIm and VIm) as major chords and again make them them dominant 7ths.  And the third being that they add minor tonality to major mode or major mode to minor tonality in that they take the major pentatonic scale and add the b3, the so called "blues note."  This looks like a tritone in the corresponding minor blues scale but it still adds that bluesy feel because it has a minor feel. 

To put this into practical terms, if I'm playing the blues in the key of C, then I'm using basic chord roots from the C major scale, in that I'm playing a C and an F and a G chords.  But I'm playing both a C major blues scale (which is the same as an A minor blues scale) and a C minor blues scale over those chords and both sound good because of the dominant 7ths added.  You can try it yourself:

Play C 7 for a few measures and then F7 and then C 7 and then G7 F7 and C7.  Now play the notes from these two scales and you'll find that both sound good:

C major blues:  C D Eb E G A C
C minor blues:  C Eb F F# G Bb C

We've sort of got sidetracked from the original op, but I'll have to one day try out the Re and see if any of this knowledge would be applicable to the way that the Re is set up.  If it is, I'll try to post my findings here! :s0511: