Haas Mixer in the shop

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Concep
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23 Feb 2015

Nothing you can't do with a DDL-1 and a line mixer.  I'm struggling to see a good use, since each voice only has a mono input.

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Sinistereo
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23 Feb 2015

I've tried to do Haas panning using stock devices, but can't get past the barrier of not being able to do any kind of math, range shunting, or logical comparison with CV using Thor. If you can implement this using a DDL-1 and a mixer, I would honestly love to know how.

Haas panning (which uses only interaural time difference, not level difference) from left to right requires that the right signal delay (typically ~10ms) be gradually reduced until the delay of both L and R channels is zero (center), then the left signal delay be gradually increased (again, typically to ~10ms). Sound level should remain constant, although combining interaural time difference with a subtle sound level pan will intensify the effect. Left and right signals need to be essentially identical for our brains to perceive a time difference between the two.

Using a mixer to fade between two fixed delays (one L, one R) isn't a good implementation.

I see the value of this. I'd rather pay a bit more for a complete head-related transfer function (HRTF) or psychoacoustic modeling rack extension that combines time, level, and frequency convolution. (I tried, and didn't like Revolution).

Haas effect depends on a mono source, so having stereo input wouldn't make sense.


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Concep
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23 Feb 2015

Thanks for the description, Sinistereo.  I didn't fully understand the mathematical intricacies of the haas effect.  My poor man's haas effect is to take a DDL with delay times of 8-15ms and pan a little to one side, then pan the dry signal a little the other way.  Some times I would do this with two delayed signals with slightly different times along with a center dry signal.  The actual sound is not all that different than what you get with this device...to my ears. :)  

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dvdrtldg
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23 Feb 2015

Nice elegant little device, well worth $25 imo

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Sinistereo
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23 Feb 2015

Concep wrote:My poor man's haas effect is to take a DDL with delay times of 8-15ms and pan a little to one side, then pan the dry signal a little the other way.
I'm sure this works, but the effect will be less pronounced. Our brains have a really cool circuit that compares phase differences between signals received at each ear. If the Haas delay is present on both R and L channels, the size of the perceived phase difference will be lower. Since this is a psychoacoustic effect, each individual is likely to interpret it differently.

I'll give this a try this weekend and see if I can make a more complete head-related transfer function (HRTF) combinator.

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Concep
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23 Feb 2015

I watched the video a few more times, and I see what you mean.  My method mentioned above is only what I thought was the haas effect.  I basically use it for thickening single vocal tracks.

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selig
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23 Feb 2015

Concep wrote:I watched the video a few more times, and I see what you mean.  My method mentioned above is only what I thought was the haas effect.  I basically use it for thickening single vocal tracks.
Most folks only know of the Haas Effect as a way to widen a mono source, but it's actually more about the law of first arrival (precedence). Probably a more accurately descriptive name for this RE would have been a Haas Panner, since there is no such thing as a Haas "mixing" effect (that I'm aware of)! ;)
Selig Audio, LLC

Ostermilk
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23 Feb 2015

Concep wrote:I watched the video a few more times, and I see what you mean.  My method mentioned above is only what I thought was the haas effect.  I basically use it for thickening single vocal tracks.
You actually described how to create the Haas or Precedence effect perfectly well.

The differences are how and when you are applying it in a studio context to either generate a stereo impression or to extract the natural ambience from within a signal (Ambience Recovery).

Examples of Ambience Recovery tools are:

The proprietary K-Stereo plugin or the excellent free Sheppi VST.

Much like using the DDL-1, the finer controlled Titus or VMG-01 to create the required delay to generate the impression of ambience though, this new tool is more based on this method but provides several channels that can be treated at once for more creative options.

It looks pretty cool to me and would be great for doing those through zero flanging tricks with a single device and an automation lane or CV input as well as providing a bit of width where you want it.

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gak
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23 Feb 2015

I can't figure out how to route this for most thing. I had it working with kong with some creating routing but no luck with anything else.

What I want is to widen drums/synth/guitars. Is this a lousy idea?

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gak
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23 Feb 2015

Hmmm. Also, I can't seem to access their site so not sure if there is a manual. Don't remember seeing anything in the viddy about how to connect.

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JoshuaPhilgarlic
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Location: Munich/ Germany

23 Feb 2015

I already knew how Haas panning works in theory, but I never used it so far 'cause I didn't like to fiddle with delays etc. Now I took the opportunity to test this all-in-one device and I still don't get it: what's the benefit of Haas panning? It does some kind of panning indeed, but it doesn't sound better than normal panning for me. So why are people so keen on Haas panning? What did I miss?? Any foolproof examples available???

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Last Alternative
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23 Feb 2015

The Haas effect is a great way for widening and filling in gaps of an empty sounding song. For example, if you don't want a guitar only on 1 side, or center, or if you don't want the double-tracked sound then Hass is perfect for making the mix sound live and in one room like you would hear it naturally live. Of course it can be made to sound unnatural too but there are great uses for it. It certainly delivers a fuller mix when done right!
I agree with those who say the half-rack delay is pretty tricky to get right. And I've used different methods: as James Bernard's patch, as a send effect, and as an insert effect in different ways including plugged into a 6 way mixer aux and just straight in the chain- last of course. I can never get it to sound right so I will definitely be trying out this little tool.

By the way obviously I played with ~10-30ms, 0 feedback on the delay, and various opposite panning positions of the track and delay. Plus I've studied the heck out if it but it just never sounds as good as it should. Like a pro song. I always feel like it sounds cheap every time with the stock delay.

If you listen close to modern music you start to hear it in almost everything!
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selig
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23 Feb 2015

Last Alternative wrote:The Haas effect is a great way for widening and filling in gaps of an empty sounding song. For example, if you don't want a guitar only on 1 side, or center, or if you don't want the double-tracked sound then Hass is perfect for making the mix sound live and in one room like you would hear it naturally live. Of course it can be made to sound unnatural too but there are great uses for it. It certainly delivers a fuller mix when done right!
I agree with those who say the half-rack delay is pretty tricky to get right. And I've used different methods: as James Bernard's patch, as a send effect, and as an insert effect in different ways including plugged into a 6 way mixer aux and just straight in the chain- last of course. I can never get it to sound right so I will definitely be trying out this little tool.

By the way obviously I played with ~10-30ms, 0 feedback on the delay, and various opposite panning positions of the track and delay. Plus I've studied the heck out if it but it just never sounds as good as it should. Like a pro song. I always feel like it sounds cheap every time with the stock delay.

If you listen close to modern music you start to hear it in almost everything!
I've not had that experience (or maybe we're talking about different things here) - what examples can you give?
:)
Selig Audio, LLC

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Sinistereo
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23 Feb 2015

Disclosure: I'm at best an amateur musician, but professionally I'm a clinical neurologist and academic neurophysiologist. Physiologically, we know quite a bit about mammalian audio circuitry thanks to the noble sacrifice made by hundreds of owls. Stereo perception is roughly 75% phase (Haas) difference, 25% level difference to the untrained ear. Professional music listeners might rely more on level difference cues as a result of too much headphone listening (probably a good research topic), but in practice a combination of Haas and conventional panning will yield the best illusion of stereo placement.

In practice, I yield to folks like Selig who actually know how music perception works!

TL,DR: Physiologically, small delays (<5ms) yield the most realistic results. A combination of traditional panning and Haas panning will give optimal perception of stereo field.

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Last Alternative
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23 Feb 2015

Selig- not sure what experience you mean. Or examples you want. My point is a song sounds fuller and more exciting to me with the Haas effect when you can somewhat hear an instrument on the other side of the strong side. Without it the song might feel like there are holes. I only use it sometimes. Because there are times when you don't want it and you prefer the sound of one sided instrument totally disconnected from the rest of the soundstage with another bare bones instrument hard-panned on the other side. For me though Haas give much more depth; it's just hard to get right so I hope this new RE does the trick simply.
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JoshuaPhilgarlic
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Location: Munich/ Germany

23 Feb 2015

Last Alternative wrote:Selig- not sure what experience you mean. Or examples you want. My point is a song sounds fuller and more exciting to me with the Haas effect when you can somewhat hear an instrument on the other side of the strong side. Without it the song might feel like there are holes. I only use it sometimes. Because there are times when you don't want it and you prefer the sound of one sided instrument totally disconnected from the rest of the soundstage with another bare bones instrument hard-panned on the other side. For me though Haas give much more depth; it's just hard to get right so I hope this new RE does the trick simply.
Well, what you're talking about is a signal panned to one side with a little delay to the other side, leading into more stereo. Maybe that's also a "Haas effect", but what I'm wondering about (and what Selig mentioned earlier) is "Haas Panning"!

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Jagwah
Posts: 2549
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23 Feb 2015

Concep wrote:Thanks for the description, Sinistereo.  I didn't fully understand the mathematical intricacies of the haas effect.  My poor man's haas effect is to take a DDL with delay times of 8-15ms and pan a little to one side, then pan the dry signal a little the other way.  Some times I would do this with two delayed signals with slightly different times along with a center dry signal.  The actual sound is not all that different than what you get with this device...to my ears. :)  
I use this method a lot, I use lower delay times than you mention and I also pan hard left and right, it's a good, quick and easy way to spread something out.

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Last Alternative
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23 Feb 2015

JoshuaPhilgarlic wrote:Well, what you're talking about is a signal panned to one side with a little delay to the other side, leading into more stereo. Maybe that's also a "Haas effect", but what I'm wondering about (and what Selig mentioned earlier) is "Haas Panning"!
That's the only way I know how to do the Haas effect but I'd like to know more about Haas panning also.
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hamu
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24 Feb 2015

Concep wrote:Thanks for the description, Sinistereo.  I didn't fully understand the mathematical intricacies of the haas effect.  My poor man's haas effect is to take a DDL with delay times of 8-15ms and pan a little to one side, then pan the dry signal a little the other way.  Some times I would do this with two delayed signals with slightly different times along with a center dry signal.  The actual sound is not all that different than what you get with this device...to my ears. :)  
Jagwah wrote: I use this method a lot, I use lower delay times than you mention and I also pan hard left and right, it's a good, quick and easy way to spread something out.
if I set a combi knob to affect two DDL - left and right - within the range 1-5 ms, I get a fairly good effect of Haas I think. At the ends this gives 10 ms difference. The steps are big though, and the mid point gives a delay on both sides of 3 ms.
Can someone explain to me why it works up to 10ms when the time difference between the ears is more like 1ms? I.e. about 35cm
Just wondering... :-)

avasopht
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24 Feb 2015

Here you go, a FREE Haas panner made using stock Reason devices!

Avasopht Haas Delay - SNAPSHOT

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selig
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24 Feb 2015

JoshuaPhilgarlic wrote:Well, what you're talking about is a signal panned to one side with a little delay to the other side, leading into more stereo. Maybe that's also a "Haas effect", but what I'm wondering about (and what Selig mentioned earlier) is "Haas Panning"!
Last Alternative wrote: That's the only way I know how to do the Haas effect but I'd like to know more about Haas panning also.
Haas panning IS the Haas effect. It's also known as the precedence effect, which states that if a sound reaches one ear before the other, it will appear to come from that direction. Other observations made were that the 'later' sound can be up to 10 dB louder without affecting this, and the panning effect "works" because we don't perceive the delay as being separate from the original when it's less than 30ms or so. But it's only this last bit that folks seem to think is the Haas Effect. :)
Selig Audio, LLC

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gullum
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24 Feb 2015

avasopht wrote:Here you go, a FREE Haas panner made using stock Reason devices!

Avasopht Haas Delay - SNAPSHOT
Nice, but a big difference is that the Haas Mixer is 1Image device instead of 12 devices.
:D I don't even know if I would need this

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Concep
Posts: 105
Joined: 17 Jan 2015

24 Feb 2015

Great discussion here.  Can anybody weigh in on when Haas panning would be preferable to regular panning?

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