4Dyne compared to VST Plugins like Waves C6?

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EthicistBeats
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Post 09 Feb 2015

Hey guys, so I've been messing with Mutiband compressors recently [mainly waves c6 and logic 9's multipressor] and i'm wondering how does 4dyne compare/stand up to these and other mulibands. I already tried my trial a while ago, and remember liking it, but to those that have multiband plugins let me know what you think in comparison.

I watched their marketing vids, to refresh my thoughts, and i noticed some cool things it does that are interesting/different to the two i'm used to. Really though, i don't want to re-wire as much but it's hard to due to my many plugins.

Again, to those that use other multibands tell me your views. I'm partial to it, but really interested in how it sounds.

Peace.



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tiker01
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Post 09 Feb 2015

You don`t even need an Re for this but if you have Re compressors you can build your own with as many band as you want.

    
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MDTerps2015
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Post 09 Feb 2015

I dont have the vst's you have but i do have 4 dyne and its awesome and very easy to use. I bought it a long time ago without even knowing how to use it and just tinkered with it off and on until I had the transparency working just right but you could hear a difference. Watched the videos on it too. 
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EthicistBeats
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Post 09 Feb 2015

Yea i'm aware of various ways to make one, but what peaks my interest the most are 4dyne's filters/bands. But i'll def make one then mess with it before i spend money.

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EthicistBeats
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Post 09 Feb 2015

@MDTerps are you familiar with other multiband compressors? Or was that more so a +1 for 4dyne?

MDTerps2015
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Post 09 Feb 2015

I have five different compressors and i use them all for different applications. My FET i use for synths and vocals while i will use my DCAM Compressor for bass and drums. I only use the m-class for side chaining nowadays. 4 dyne i bought not even knowing what it was about two year ago and kept plugging at it and watched the video probably a hundred times. I also have the DCAM Bus Comp. Throw in the pulverizer and the the Selig leveler i have about six compressors. 
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Theo.M
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Post 10 Feb 2015

hi ethicist.. 4 dyne can be true zero latency using the analog crossovers which still sound great and no look ahead. Using all the features in max quality the latency is still low.

It shits on the logic multi pressor to be frank, as logic's crossovers ruin the source. This is very easy to check.. just load any sound and disable all the actual compression but drag the crossovers around and hear how it changes the sound drastically. ;)

I don't have any use for that sort of thing, who does really? Mcdsp ml/mc series are the same.. terrible crossovers.

The best in this regards are ozone, fab filter and yes, 4 dyne. C6 is fine too, they are "pretty good" crossovers.

IMO any type of effect multiband is only as good as it's crossovers first and foremost, then of course feature set/capabilities. 4 Dyne is an absolute top of the line multiband compressor and just as good as ozone for example, for sure. C6 is 6 band due to the 2 floating bands which i will admit is a unique feature and an be very handy especially for deessing but it's not really "needed" as such and we have DQ from code diggers anyway that we could use in conjunction with 4Dyne which would give you that same floating band as DQ is a single frequency dependant compressor.

To sum it up i think 4 dyne sounds fantastic, and i love that it can be used to turn any effect into a multiband version also with it's on board wet/dry inserts.

The compression itself has a nice character to it, overall I would describe it as "smooth".



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EthicistBeats
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Post 10 Feb 2015

Theo thanks. Your review sums up my concerns nicely.

Will be mulling the purchase over all day. ;)

Peace.


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selig
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Post 10 Feb 2015

Theo.M wrote:hi ethicist.. 4 dyne can be true zero latency using the analog crossovers which still sound great and no look ahead. Using all the features in max quality the latency is still low.

It shits on the logic multi pressor to be frank, as logic's crossovers ruin the source. This is very easy to check.. just load any sound and disable all the actual compression but drag the crossovers around and hear how it changes the sound drastically. ;)

I don't have any use for that sort of thing, who does really? Mcdsp ml/mc series are the same.. terrible crossovers.
Ouch - EVERYTHING I've done professionally in the past many years has been through those McDSP crossovers. ;(

That being said, I'm not sure that hearing the crossover when it moves is an issue, unless you move your crossovers intentionally during playback. I've never heard the McDSP crossovers, but never really listened either. 

OK, just listened to the Multipressor in Logic on a piano vocal/demo, and I can't hear the crossovers moving. But I'm a musician first, following the old "if it sounds good, it is good" approach and may not be tuned into the finer details here. Either way, I'm probably still hooked on the McDSP stuff as the best sounding to my ears (for better or for worse!).

For me, having more compressor options is far more important with a multi band than the crossovers, assuming they are adding up correctly. 
If I can't hear them when they move, then I certainly can't hear them when they don't! :)
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Theo.M
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Post 10 Feb 2015

Theo.M wrote:hi ethicist.. 4 dyne can be true zero latency using the analog crossovers which still sound great and no look ahead. Using all the features in max quality the latency is still low.

It shits on the logic multi pressor to be frank, as logic's crossovers ruin the source. This is very easy to check.. just load any sound and disable all the actual compression but drag the crossovers around and hear how it changes the sound drastically. ;)

I don't have any use for that sort of thing, who does really? Mcdsp ml/mc series are the same.. terrible crossovers.
selig wrote:
Ouch - EVERYTHING I've done professionally in the past many years has been through those McDSP crossovers. ;(

That being said, I'm not sure that hearing the crossover when it moves is an issue, unless you move your crossovers intentionally during playback. I've never heard the McDSP crossovers, but never really listened either. 

OK, just listened to the Multipressor in Logic on a piano vocal/demo, and I can't hear the crossovers moving. But I'm a musician first, following the old "if it sounds good, it is good" approach and may not be tuned into the finer details here. Either way, I'm probably still hooked on the McDSP stuff as the best sounding to my ears (for better or for worse!).

For me, having more compressor options is far more important with a multi band than the crossovers, assuming they are adding up correctly. 
If I can't hear them when they move, then I certainly can't hear them when they don't! :)
I am not talking about hearing the crossover when it moves.. even 4 dyne does that.. i am talking about the crossovers completely altering the frequency balance of the mix once the crossovers are at their destination. I am VERY surprised to read this from you Giles and that you would even consider using the mcdsp multi band stuff on a mix.

I won't even use them on a single instrument these days to tame a certain part of it, will use something else instead because of this.

The logic crossovers just like the mcdsp completely change the spectral of the mix. Move em to the left, hear it yourself, it's really pronounced there.. it will gut mids and add bass. 4 dyne has perfect crossovers (the 24 db ones named, as it happens, "perfect" lol) as does ozone and fab filter. After that there are the "good enough" camp which you can only hear alter the spectral balance of the mix on really radical changes, like C6, blue cat MB-7, 4 dyne analog, and a few others. Then there are the plain bad, like logic, mcdsp, fxpansion maul etc etc.

Many people at KVR/Gearslutz agree with me about this, *especially* the fxpansion maul, it was the most hotly resold plugin because no one would use it as even without distortion active, the crossovers ruined the sound.. the mcdsp are no better, really. So again I am surprised at your reply.
Maybe for a one eared guy with tinnitus, i dunno, not being smart, i just pick up stuff with greater sensitivity than you in some cases. I guess it's possible. I honestly thought when i saw you had replied that you'd be confirming, you sent me for a six!

I guess the best thing to do is post sound examples of just what mcdsp crossovers can do to a mix. One can disable the comp/gating/limiter completely, set ratio to 0 and threshold same, just to be sure, and only cut the sound up with the crossovers, and the destruction will happen. This will be the method I use in the coming examples.



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Theo.M
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Post 10 Feb 2015

By the way, what i am essentially trying to say is that a good crossover is one that does not alter the mix at all itself, i.e it's sole purpose is to divide the sound into frequency bands and put it back together exactly the same way, whether the mix is good or bad to begin with, is not the point, the crossover itself should not change anything.

A bit of trivia. 4 bands in ozone will null with the identical source with no ozone. now THAT'S a crossover.


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selig
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Post 10 Feb 2015

FWIW, the Logic crossovers also pass your null test with flying colors (multiprocessor on one channel, not on it's duplicate, with no compression) - so my ears are not deceiving me after all?

I'll try the same thing with the McDSP crossovers when I'm at the studio later in the week. But if they sound like the Logic crossovers, and the Logic crossovers are not coloring the sound in any way, then maybe I'll be ok!

;)

Of course, we can still be friends even if we don't hear the same issues or share the same favorite processors!

:)
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Theo.M
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Post 10 Feb 2015

selig wrote:FWIW, the Logic crossovers also pass your null test with flying colors (multiprocessor on one channel, not on it's duplicate, with no compression) - so my ears are not deceiving me after all?

I'll try the same thing with the McDSP crossovers when I'm at the studio later in the week. But if they sound like the Logic crossovers, and the Logic crossovers are not coloring the sound in any way, then maybe I'll be ok!

;)

Of course, we can still be friends even if we don't hear the same issues or share the same favorite processors!

:)
now with the mcdsp ones you will hear massive frequency differences during null attempts depending solely on where the crossovers are.. of this one i am 100% sure ;)

However it is possible with so many plugins I am confusing the logic multiband with the steinberg one in cubase.. i know one was ok and one wasn't.. but i don't bother with anything anymore other than ozone/4 dyne/fab filter/C6/MB-7

Waves drastically improved the C6 ones over the C4 with some sort of hybrid crossover.

Anyway, will load the logic multipressor now for the first time in ages, and do your test also and see how I go, then will do cubase, as maybe I am totally wrong, but not about the mcdsp. Cheers

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Theo.M
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Post 10 Feb 2015

You are 100% correct Giles, the logic one nulls. It was the steinberg one that changes the sound, sorry! This is actually good news, as over the years with so many plugins I forget things, and it means I can sell ozone and use the logic one, so I actually owe you one! Unfortunately, the mcdsp ones ARE really bad. Sorry!


Edit: My goodness they are bad.. WOW.. complete mix destroyers.. it's stuff like this and the issues with the RE's which really does make me question MCDSP's quality control. Compressor bank and the retro series are very nice though.

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Theo.M
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Post 10 Feb 2015

Here you go guys, here is a tiny excerpt from a song I am writing called overflow. please note this has NOT been mixed down yet but that's irrelevant as what the mcdsp crossovers do to the sound is clearly evident.

Simply a one bar bounce with mcdsp disabled then enabled.

the limiter, compressor, gate and expander of the mcdsp are all disabled but just to be extra cautious all thresholds at 0 and ratios at 1.00

high band is cut at 1khz as this really pronounces the problem in this particular track.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/926 ... ML4000.mp3

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/926 ... ML4000.mp3

Edit, just tested 4 Dyne with the same crossover frequency settings as the mcdsp.. using the 48db analogs there is a change, not as drastic as the mcdsp but certainly not the same as the original source and something i wouldn't like to use for mastering. However, i would certainly happily use this mode on individual sounds , for deessing vocals for example, where i would need a steep crossover, as it's fairly non destructive. But the perfect 24 db mode is flawless. Absolutely no change to the original mix between 4 dyne enabled and disabled.

What i like about this is that unlike most tools you get to choose the steepness and type of crossover, the perfect adds some latency but for mastering that doesn't matter.. whereas the analog mode without look ahead enabled is zero latency and is totally suitable for mixing purposes.. they were very clever about this to offer both modes. Logic, mcdsp, many others don't let you choose anything about the crossover. I have no idea how steep logic's one is but it IS good, as i said i made an error there, perhaps Giles with his brilliant graphing method could compare steepness to 4 dyne if he has some time in the future (no rush).

Anyway, buy 4 dyne with absolute confidence, wonderful tool... ;)
To the OP, please bear in mind I gave you bad info about the logic multiband in my first reply to this topic, so please ignore that mate.


MDTerps2015
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Post 10 Feb 2015

Between Theo and Selig, i just have to watch your post because i can learn a lot just from your conversation. Like i said i bought the 4 dyne not even knowing how to use it or what it was about 2 years ago and just watched videos on "IT" and other multiband compression videos. I just need to sit down and start making music instead of getting halfway done and trashing it after listening to the music for ten hours in a sitting, LOL. 
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selig
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Post 10 Feb 2015

Theo.M wrote:You are 100% correct Giles, the logic one nulls. It was the steinberg one that changes the sound, sorry! This is actually good news, as over the years with so many plugins I forget things, and it means I can sell ozone and use the logic one, so I actually owe you one! Unfortunately, the mcdsp ones ARE really bad. Sorry!


Edit: My goodness they are bad.. WOW.. complete mix destroyers.. it's stuff like this and the issues with the RE's which really does make me question MCDSP's quality control. Compressor bank and the retro series are very nice though.
Love Compressor Bank, passed on writing a review for the Retro series because I didn't find they offered anything useful for me (and I'm a "retro" audio fan, and a McDSP fan!). To each their own, vive la différence, variety is the spice of life, etc…

What might be lost on those who are listening to our conversation is how much our personal taste can affect our opinions, and who our clients are (what type of music we typically work on, etc). I'm definitely more of a rock-n-roll/indy minded engineer, if that makes any sense - I'd never get hired to make a "you are there" audiophile recording as I don't have a clue how to make that kind of record (nor do I listen to those sort of recordings on a regular basis). I don't know how this differs from Theo's background, but it's something to consider when you hear two differing opinions - the phrase "horses for courses" often comes up in this type of conversation!

But this is also how I learn and progress as an engineer, musician, and artist. Being open to other's experiences and opinions has been the key to me not getting bored or stagnant in my musical life. There's always something to learn from others, if you're open to learning!
:)
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EthicistBeats
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Post 10 Feb 2015

Cool, nice convo guys. I will definitely consider spending the money on the device, even if it's just for the ease of it... but it seems to hold its own.

And, FWIW, i made a five band combi with the Reason's stereo imager and it nulled perfect. Not sure what you'd consider those filters, definitely not "perfect" lol, but it nulls perfectly.


Anyways glad the forum lives in someway. Peace.


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Theo.M
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Post 10 Feb 2015

EthicistBeats wrote:Cool, nice convo guys. I will definitely consider spending the money on the device, even if it's just for the ease of it... but it seems to hold its own.

And, FWIW, i made a five band combi with the Reason's stereo imager and it nulled perfect. Not sure what you'd consider those filters, definitely not "perfect" lol, but it nulls perfectly.


Anyways glad the forum lives in someway. Peace.
the stereo imager crossovers are indeed perfect.


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Theo.M
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Post 10 Feb 2015

Giles I am confused again. Did you listen to my example of what just the crossovers are doing to the sound and how radically they are altering it?

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selig
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Post 10 Feb 2015

Theo.M wrote:Giles I am confused again. Did you listen to my example of what just the crossovers are doing to the sound and how radically they are altering it?
Sorry! Yes, I hear the difference, I guess I just love all of the dynamics sections so much I end up working around it - worked for analog tape pretty well… ;)

Again, I'll listen more closely the next time I'm at the studio. 

:)
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Theo.M
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Post 10 Feb 2015

Theo.M wrote:Giles I am confused again. Did you listen to my example of what just the crossovers are doing to the sound and how radically they are altering it?
selig wrote:
Sorry! Yes, I hear the difference, I guess I just love all of the dynamics sections so much I end up working around it - worked for analog tape pretty well… ;)

Again, I'll listen more closely the next time I'm at the studio. 

:)
that's only one setting for the example.. there are 1000+ different settings, infinite almost.. they all change the source, all of them, in different ways. There is simply no way to cut up the source with mcdsp multi band processors and have it sound as what you feed into it before processing. I simply don't understand how anyone can "work around that". But... i guess.. we are never going to agree on that one LOL. Just the way it is. Enjoy!


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EthicistBeats
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Post 11 Feb 2015

Theo.M wrote:Giles I am confused again. Did you listen to my example of what just the crossovers are doing to the sound and how radically they are altering it?
selig wrote:
Sorry! Yes, I hear the difference, I guess I just love all of the dynamics sections so much I end up working around it - worked for analog tape pretty well… ;)

Again, I'll listen more closely the next time I'm at the studio. 

:)
Theo.M wrote: that's only one setting for the example.. there are 1000+ different settings, infinite almost.. they all change the source, all of them, in different ways. There is simply no way to cut up the source with mcdsp multi band processors and have it sound as what you feed into it before processing. I simply don't understand how anyone can "work around that". But... i guess.. we are never going to agree on that one LOL. Just the way it is. Enjoy!
TBH i tend to agree with you ... but my first thoughts on the McDSP example, is that people may want it like that. I got the impression that the McDSP sounded more like a lot of things you hear on the radio... i don't have much statistics to back it up, it's more of a feeling i got when i listened to the examples. Just my 2 cents.

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Theo.M
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Post 12 Feb 2015

Theo.M wrote:Giles I am confused again. Did you listen to my example of what just the crossovers are doing to the sound and how radically they are altering it?
selig wrote:
Sorry! Yes, I hear the difference, I guess I just love all of the dynamics sections so much I end up working around it - worked for analog tape pretty well… ;)

Again, I'll listen more closely the next time I'm at the studio. 

:)
Theo.M wrote: that's only one setting for the example.. there are 1000+ different settings, infinite almost.. they all change the source, all of them, in different ways. There is simply no way to cut up the source with mcdsp multi band processors and have it sound as what you feed into it before processing. I simply don't understand how anyone can "work around that". But... i guess.. we are never going to agree on that one LOL. Just the way it is. Enjoy!
EthicistBeats wrote:
TBH i tend to agree with you ... but my first thoughts on the McDSP example, is that people may want it like that. I got the impression that the McDSP sounded more like a lot of things you hear on the radio... i don't have much statistics to back it up, it's more of a feeling i got when i listened to the examples. Just my 2 cents.
I get what you are saying, but remember the track i fed into it had not been mixed at *all* (brand new techo track and i only just finished the composition, even basic levels aren't right yet let alone mixing!).
Perhaps I should provide an example of a completely mixed and mastered track and how just inserting the mcdsp and not using any compression at all but just the frequency splitters, will completely ruin the mix.

I posted an example where the mcdsp didn't sound that "bad" but the point was to prove it had an effect on the sound.

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EthicistBeats
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Post 13 Feb 2015

Yea i got that. 

I'm saying that as much as one may not like that aspect of effecting a mix [an audio engineer for instance] , someone that may not know what they are doing [in regards to that audio engineer] would be "Oh, wow 'almost ' like a record with this one plugin! thats cool." even if it is "destroying" their mix... Alluding to what Selig said about, differing opinions.

With all that said,i purchased 4dyne last night. I'm happy i did though i haven't put it through the full ringer yet. But it's a solid addition to my reason rack.

Peace.

Sidenote: if the multiband compression conversation wants to continue this video came out yesterday.  [video] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I1NYFR_yzm4 [/video]

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