To Ozone or no to Ozone?

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Theo.M
Posts: 1035
Joined: 16 Jan 2015

06 Feb 2015

Hmm I really can't get over what onyx is doing the the mix. It's really disappointing :frown:

Default mid release is full of pumping, fast release is smearing.. it's so weird.. digital mode no extra bias (which of course only makes it louder and worse).

The thing is, there is no more than 2b GR happening max! So that really drives the issue home. Oh well! We live and learn. Sale tempted me too much without demo!

Now the flipside is, the other limiter of theirs I initially discounted, the titan, is actually more competitive with Ozone than I thought. By not having the contour up, and soft clip off, same headroom output as ozone (-0.3 in this case), it's just as loud, and sounds good. It's a bit different, but this would be a matter of choice.. either is good.
Why they didn't add a GR meter to Titan, an adjustable release and an isp button i don't know.. that would have updated it to be a truly killer plugin. I wonder what the release time even is? Perhaps it is auto adapting?


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ambeant
Posts: 180
Joined: 16 Jan 2015

06 Feb 2015

Theo.M wrote:Hmm I really can't get over what onyx is doing the the mix. It's really disappointing :frown:

Default mid release is full of pumping, fast release is smearing.. it's so weird.. digital mode no extra bias (which of course only makes it louder and worse).

The thing is, there is no more than 2b GR happening max! So that really drives the issue home. Oh well! We live and learn. Sale tempted me too much without demo!

Now the flipside is, the other limiter of theirs I initially discounted, the titan, is actually more competitive with Ozone than I thought. By not having the contour up, and soft clip off, same headroom output as ozone (-0.3 in this case), it's just as loud, and sounds good. It's a bit different, but this would be a matter of choice.. either is good.
Why they didn't add a GR meter to Titan, an adjustable release and an isp button i don't know.. that would have updated it to be a truly killer plugin. I wonder what the release time even is? Perhaps it is auto adapting?
I find that for EDM kicks, a release time of 90-200ms is more suitable. The default release time might be too slow for peaking waveforms.

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ProfessaKaos
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Location: Melbourne, Australia
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07 Feb 2015

Theo.M wrote:Hmm, i have been putting onyx through it's paces and it's not suitable for final mix edm mastering at all. The transient smear/mush is incredible to say the least.. i have never heard this before in any other pro limiter. It unfortunately, to my ear, completely ruins the mix. I was certainly wrong about it as i hadn't really put it through it's paces like this before. It has some non transient bus and single track uses in certain cases, as well as some warming up duties with it's tube mode, but compared to ozone as a final master limiter? Not even close. Ozone is louder to top it all off.. preserves better at more volume.. overall no contest.
I've had the same experience.
I've put Onyx through it's paces on my music which is more Hip Hop based with drums being one of the key focuses. I found Onyx drastically changes the loudest transients (kick and snare in my case) killing the thump and punch, and does it quite quickly with only a dB or a couple of Attenuation. I've A/B tested the Onyx and Ozone side by side and found I can get a lot more perceived level out of the Ozone without changing the mix, unless pushed quite hard but even then it doesn't ever affect louder transients like Onyx does.
Sort of sounds like a bug to me as I feel it shouldn't have this affect on the loudest transients, like Theo said "i have never heard this before in any other pro limiter" also.
 
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Theo.M
Posts: 1035
Joined: 16 Jan 2015

07 Feb 2015

Theo.M wrote:Hmm I really can't get over what onyx is doing the the mix. It's really disappointing :frown:

Default mid release is full of pumping, fast release is smearing.. it's so weird.. digital mode no extra bias (which of course only makes it louder and worse).

The thing is, there is no more than 2b GR happening max! So that really drives the issue home. Oh well! We live and learn. Sale tempted me too much without demo!

Now the flipside is, the other limiter of theirs I initially discounted, the titan, is actually more competitive with Ozone than I thought. By not having the contour up, and soft clip off, same headroom output as ozone (-0.3 in this case), it's just as loud, and sounds good. It's a bit different, but this would be a matter of choice.. either is good.
Why they didn't add a GR meter to Titan, an adjustable release and an isp button i don't know.. that would have updated it to be a truly killer plugin. I wonder what the release time even is? Perhaps it is auto adapting?
ambeant wrote:
I find that for EDM kicks, a release time of 90-200ms is more suitable. The default release time might be too slow for peaking waveforms.
As i said i tried various release times. From the fastest, through various settings (maybe 20 different settings) up to the default 500.

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Theo.M
Posts: 1035
Joined: 16 Jan 2015

07 Feb 2015

Theo.M wrote:Hmm, i have been putting onyx through it's paces and it's not suitable for final mix edm mastering at all. The transient smear/mush is incredible to say the least.. i have never heard this before in any other pro limiter. It unfortunately, to my ear, completely ruins the mix. I was certainly wrong about it as i hadn't really put it through it's paces like this before. It has some non transient bus and single track uses in certain cases, as well as some warming up duties with it's tube mode, but compared to ozone as a final master limiter? Not even close. Ozone is louder to top it all off.. preserves better at more volume.. overall no contest.
ProfessaKaos wrote:
I've had the same experience.
I've put Onyx through it's paces on my music which is more Hip Hop based with drums being one of the key focuses. I found Onyx drastically changes the loudest transients (kick and snare in my case) killing the thump and punch, and does it quite quickly with only a dB or a couple of Attenuation. I've A/B tested the Onyx and Ozone side by side and found I can get a lot more perceived level out of the Ozone without changing the mix, unless pushed quite hard but even then it doesn't ever affect louder transients like Onyx does.
Sort of sounds like a bug to me as I feel it shouldn't have this affect on the loudest transients, like Theo said "i have never heard this before in any other pro limiter" also.
 
wow thank you for confirming this..yeah that explains it really well.

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ProfessaKaos
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07 Feb 2015

Theo.M wrote: wow thank you for confirming this..yeah that explains it really well.
Couple things I've noticed is if the mix is quite dense Onyx starts to suck the punch and body out (thin clicky sounding) of the loud transients that exceed the threshold even when barely attenuating I find this happens more when using the threshold knob but I could be imagining things.
In my experience Limiters/Maximizer when pushed will start to distort (like Onyx does) and smear the transients which Onyx doesn't quite sound like it doing. For myself I've noticed this thinning out of the louder transients during the chorus sections as the chorus is usually the most dense part of the mix and usually the place the limiter/maximizer performs most/if any attenuation. This is the last place I want to loose punch.
The sound Onyx produces when the loudest transients loose punch and body reminds of a section of the book "Mixing with your Mind" where Michael Stavrou talks about fast attack times on compressors, how as fast attack times thins out the sound loosing punch and body, it reminds me of this because the when Onyx looses punch it sounds similar to a compressor with a fast attack time IMO.
On individual instruments and less dense mixes its quite nice sounding IMO but keep in mind Onyx can/will alter the sound (tone/character) of the loudest transients in the mix, dense mix or not, so that change isn't always what one would want from a Limiter/Maximizer.
That said I do feel I've had good results from Onyx, so don't count him out but don't expect too much out of him in the Master section as I think he works best subtly.
I tend to like the tube setting and find a release time around 250ms with about a dB (or 2) attenuation works best for my music as it tends to keep punch more often then not and even at times adds punch, but sometimes Onyx doesn't play nice not helping the mix at all and does what we have been discussing. So I when I do use Onyx, its for the subtle added punch and perceived level, which I then run it into the Ozone for another dB attenuation and dither etc.

So my summary is Onyx can sound great and add punch while slightly changing the tone/character or it can sound horrible on the loudest transients a take away punch. So its worth a try to see if it works for the song or not.
Reason 12 & 11.3 Suite PC- Windows 10, AMD Ryzen 9 5900x, Asus ROG CROSSHAIR Dark Hero VIII, 64GB G.Skill 3600C16 RAM, 980 Pro Samsung M.2, RTX3060.

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ambeant
Posts: 180
Joined: 16 Jan 2015

10 Feb 2015

Here's a comparison of the two at similar settings.

Original:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1XBtt ... sp=sharing



Onyx - Threshold -6dB, Recovery = 138ms, Tube Mode ON, Bias = 50%, Input Gain = 0.0dB, Margin = 0.0dB,  Intersample Limiting ON, Stereo Link ON.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1XBtt ... sp=sharing



Ozone - Threshold = -6dB, Character = 2.4, IRCII Mode, Margin = 0.0dB, Intersample Limiting ON, Dither OFF, Stereo Link Fully Linked.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1XBtt ... sp=sharing













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Theo.M
Posts: 1035
Joined: 16 Jan 2015

10 Feb 2015

Will also be putting examples up later today.. just need some more rest... will use the same excerpt of a track i used to showcase some multiband crossovers.. Ozone vs onyx vs titan.. stay tuned!

Edit: Hey ambeant, although not as evident as the sample I will be posting, it is pretty clear how onyx is mushing up the sound even in your example. Remember there is not that much going on there to really test it.. it's going to fall apart much quicker on a busier mix.



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Melody303
Posts: 385
Joined: 18 Mar 2015

22 Mar 2015

CephaloPod wrote:Ozone is one of my very few "must have" REs.  It's at the end of the signal chain in every one of my songs.  It makes every song louder and punchier, and does so transparently unless you really abuse it.  And it gives you instant results.  You can go a long way just moving a single slider, not knowing WTF you are really doing.  It's like magic. 
My sentiments exactly.
I write acid music in Reason and perform live on a bunch of machines without computers.
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Ronin
Posts: 182
Joined: 20 Jan 2015

22 Mar 2015

I have ozone 5 vst, and since i first got a little while ago, I have used it on every single tune I make.
Not sure how it compares to the RE version, but its an excellent plugin.

inmatus
Posts: 63
Joined: 25 Mar 2015

27 Mar 2015

I got the Ozone 5 RE (so I cant see the prize of it anymore). It is good

However what to consider and decide: Do you want to master your song in Reason or outside?
-It is a benefit to master outside if you ask me. If you focus your mix session and MIX and dont bother about "boosting" etc. I used to do it and it became a mess cause if something was "wrong" -where to correct it? You sort of loose track. So to have a two step process is IMO better. If you master outside it sort of supports that
-Latency! Ozone is latency hungry. If you master outside of Reason you dont have to care about latency at all

So.. alternative to Ozone RE is to get Ozone 6 (skip the advance). You find it for e.g. 179€ here: http://www.thomann.de/se/izotope_ozone_6.htm
Ozone 6 work as standalone! You then get EXCELLENT EQ, Dynamics, stereo imaging and harmonic exciter to master with for that price! AND you get the opportunity to plug in mastering VST as well.
I use Mastercheck to have LUFS under control

My experience is: Skip the master plugs/REs in reason (I only have RE60 and Measure). Skip the SSL compressor. Yes, it sounds better with them but better wait to after mix with it and it will sound even better. Spend your money on Ozone 6 or Wavelab instead

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gak
Posts: 2840
Joined: 05 Feb 2015

28 Mar 2015

Interesting. 

Since I got into reason my thoughts have always been if I finish some masterpiece I really want to share, I'll simply export the stems and work in studio one for final mixing/mastering. But then again I'm not the worlds foremost expert in mixing/mastering so if the only time you use ozone is during the final bounce, I don't really care about the latency.

BTW: Is the ozone limiter so much better than the built in limiter that you really need it?

inmatus
Posts: 63
Joined: 25 Mar 2015

29 Mar 2015

I think so.. Several different modes and true peaking if "inter sample limit" is activated. Sounds transparent

Everyone have their own way of doing it but I do think that bringing the levels up is the last thing you should do.
When I am swapping between mixing and mastering -and even recording- I loose track what the heck I am doing
I used to do it like that but noticed I get better result working a bit more structured
When I bounce from Reason I to have no limiting at all and as much dynamics as needed for the mastering part
You can of course master in Reason as well - all the tools are there + some REs too

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Kov
Posts: 467
Joined: 21 Jan 2015

29 Mar 2015

I tried all of them and stayed with mclass.

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Morphic1977
Posts: 34
Joined: 30 Mar 2015
Location: Slovakia, Bratislava

30 Mar 2015

Faastwalker wrote:Tried this & liked it. A nice simple way to boost levels up, no fuss, no mess, no skills required to be honest! Not pulled the trigger on this one yet though. Should I? Seems like a no brainer for $50. But what are the alternatives, if any, at this price point? Or should I spend more on an alternative RE & get something better / more capable? 
Hi,
I have tried all maximizer in the shop, made tests and comparisons, and decided to buy Ozone. It is ease to set and the final sound stays more natural and pleasant to ears in comparison to other maximizers which had tendency to introduce distortion. Plus, the Ozone has additional dithering section if you need it.
:reason: :PUF_balance: :ignition: :re: :refill:

Nektar Panorama P4, Many of REs and couple of refills...
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