ReasonTalk.com

joeyluck wrote:SDK2 can do what SDK1 can do and better. SDK2 doesn't just mean 'custom displays.'

This what I was trying to add to this discussion, but kept saying too much.

I was happy to get the kick in the butt to move on to the newest SDK, and no longer have to worry about the "what if" of excluding a part of the market. The Props did the right thing to get developers to move on, to stop supporting old bugs, and start supporting new features.

This is how to make niche market smaller and smaller.

tumar wrote:This is how to make niche market smaller and smaller.

yeah, that's my concern also.  i think the full version update between 6.5 and 7 and where they put the SDK update in that was a mistake.  also, as an end user i don't really care about the SDK update as it represents no intrinsic value to me as part of the upgrade.  unless of course it enables better integration with RE (which was not the case with 7.1 and i honestly thought the automation was bugged at first)

I don't see the point in dropping support for building 1.0 REs either until the newest version of Reason literally becomes incompatible to old REs (which is when even old, unsupported REs would have to be recompiled anyway). For now thats seemingly not the case so theres no reason to disallow building such REs either. People who bought a RE for their Reason 6.5 can of course still use it but they can never get bugfixes.

Even worse, IF they at some point decide that all REs need to be recompiled because they somehow get incompatible to the newest Reason version (which is the only valid reason for dropping this support) then people can't even get a compatible version of their REs anymore (unless they allow downloading of old versions akin to Apples App Store).

Has the abandonment of SDK 1 been confirmed by any official source or voice? The last SDK 1 Rack Extensions to be released were the Quadelectra's JackBoxes, released in December, which is not far away... And SDK 2 devices "without any obvious reasons" are not new: I remember I was sad seeing that Audio Poison's Strontium90 is a SDK 2 device many months ago...

joeyluck wrote:For real.  If you can't see the value in the features added in Reason 7 and 8 and can't justify having MIDI Out, audio quantize, REX file saving, channel grouping, spectrum EQ, Audiomatic, snappier browser, drag and drop, drop to Propellerhead, Softube Amps, etc for a single upgrade price...You should probably just give up on it =P  But you really shouldn't and should just do yourself a favor and upgrade

Honestly, given my music style and the way I use Reason, none of these features really makes me want to upgrade right now from 6.5, simply because I don't need any of them... The most appealing of those features to me is Audiomatic, that I could buy separately! The spectrum analyzer is fine, but, for now, I have the Red Rock Sound's one which does the job. The worst in all this: upgrading Reason would requiere in my case to upgrade Windows too, for a total cost of around 250$... Access to new Rack Extensions is very likely what will make me upgrade... A couple of the current SDK 2 stock is very appealing, but there's still not enough of them for me to justify a 250$ upgrade, REs not included!

dannyF wrote:There is no reason to enforce SDK 2.0 on Rack Extensions that do not require it. This is the real point of the issue. Not all, I am guessing half of all newly created RE's would still run on 6.5 if not for the lame 2.0 requirement.

But this is, as you say, a guess. There is no reason to enforce SDK 2.0 that you know of.

But if we're going to speculate on how many REs could get by without SDK 2, we can certainly imagine some reasons why requiring SDK 2 might be a good idea. For example, if the math involved is improved, and increases efficiency, then making all new REs under SDK 2 would be a step towards improving all-over performance, where allowing REs to be built under SDK 1 would make them somewhat more of a drain on CPU resources than they have to be.

Now, I don't personally know that SDK 2 uses more efficient routines, but that would be an example of a good reason to require it for all new REs.

It doesn't seem to me to be a good idea to make a categorically definitive statement when you're dealing with incomplete information, and anyone who isn't a developer of REs probably falls under the category of "not knowing everything"...

...and anyone who is a developer, can't say everything.

joeyluck wrote:If Propellerhead allows developers to use SDK1, you can bet they will need to answer with support for it.

This is the point that interested me and changed my opinion, it makes sense but I'm not aware of the validity of the claim. I keep thinking of Sony and their Playstation as an analogy and while it probably isn't a real world analogy - if game developers wanted to make PS1 games and required Sony's support to do so I'm pretty sure they wouldn't be interested.

This did come kind of hard and fast, to think that users not only have to upgrade Reason but also their OS, it's a massive outlay.

I don't know, kind of torn between it being a good thing and a bad thing.

The problem is that the users speculating on the SDK don't really know anything, and those who know can't say anything. There's a catch 22 for you.

joeyluck wrote:If Propellerhead allows developers to use SDK1, you can bet they will need to answer with support for it.

Jagwah wrote: This is the point that interested me and changed my opinion, it makes sense but I'm not aware of the validity of the claim. I keep thinking of Sony and their Playstation as an analogy and while it probably isn't a real world analogy - if game developers wanted to make PS1 games and required Sony's support to do so I'm pretty sure they wouldn't be interested.

This did come kind of hard and fast, to think that users not only have to upgrade Reason but also their OS, it's a massive outlay.

I don't know, kind of torn between it being a good thing and a bad thing.

Working for a software company (Aretics, Sweden), I recognize this as common procedure regarding support and bugfix; We contract to provide support for the latest major, and the preceeding, releases of our software. When there is a new major upgrade (every threee years or so), we also announce that support for the second latest will shortly expire.
Keeping support for different releases of a software is indeed expensive, and Props also need to have available and support servers for the build, test and approval processes. 

If they now stop supporting SDK 1, I'm sure this is preparation and a signal that there is an SDK 3 or something around the closest corner. Probably together with Reason 9 or 8.x.

And there's no such thing as a free lunch. Someone has to pay for the cost if support should be provider for older SDK's, and it would surely not be those who do not upgrade. 

eXode wrote:The problem is that the users speculating on the SDK don't really know anything, and those who know can't say anything. There's a catch 22 for you.

Well thats kind of nonsense as this will inevitably touch the users/customers and the developers will have to give answers.

Anybody want to ask me if there will be any updates for VMG-01 that are compatible to Reason 6.5, as I planned to do them?

eXode wrote:The problem is that the users speculating on the SDK don't really know anything, and those who know can't say anything. There's a catch 22 for you.

normen wrote:
Well thats kind of nonsense as this will inevitably touch the users/customers and the developers will have to give answers.

As you are a dev and should be honoring your NDA with Propellerhead, how is eXode's statement nonsense?  Of course you can give answers, but the amount of information you divulge in regards to the SDK should, of course, be limited.

normen wrote:Anybody want to ask me if there will be any updates for VMG-01 that are compatible to Reason 6.5, as I planned to do them?

*raises hand slowly*

Any chance you'll change it to something with a interactive display widget that would display the amounts on an interactive waveform graph or something?  Have no idea if this is possible; just asking.  

EnochLight wrote: As you are a dev and should be honoring your NDA with Propellerhead, how is eXode's statement nonsense?  Of course you can give answers, but the amount of information you divulge in regards to the SDK should, of course, be limited.

I'm not saying that what he says is nonsense, just that the implicit disallowing of communicating to your customers about what you'll do is.

EnochLight wrote: *raises hand slowly*

No, there won't be any 6.5 compatible updates anymore

EnochLight wrote: Any chance you'll change it to something with a interactive display widget that would display the amounts on an interactive waveform graph or something?  Have no idea if this is possible; just asking.  

Idk if that would make too much sense as it uses a measuring signal (a short burst) and measures the latency once.. So theres not much data for any graph.

EnochLight wrote: Any chance you'll change it to something with a interactive display widget that would display the amounts on an interactive waveform graph or something?  Have no idea if this is possible; just asking.  

normen wrote:
Idk if that would make too much sense as it uses a measuring signal (a short burst) and measures the latency once.. So theres not much data for any graph.

Ah, OK I understand.  Was just kind of hoping for some "bling" to make using it more visually appealing (blinky lights, meters, etc).  Love the device, BTW!

dannyF wrote:So yes, I agree this is all speculation. Even being an RE developer isn't going to give bestow upon one Rack Extension omnipotence. Though I would say that slightly ads more weight to my 'guess'.

Fair enough then, so let me ask you:

Have you (or anyone, for that matter) actually asked PH about the requirement, and if so, what did they say?

tumar wrote:This is how to make niche market smaller and smaller.

Maybe props have simply been using us all as mass testing and eventually only they will be able to use Reason? 

I'm still having a hard time understanding why there would be any fuss if this is the case (if SDK1 is no longer supported/available to developers). Some people seem to really dig for stuff to complain about these days.  

joeyluck wrote:I'm still having a hard time understanding why there would be any fuss if this is the case (if SDK1 is no longer supported/available to developers). Some people seem to really dig for stuff to complain about these days.  

Well, I could see it if that person is short on funds and cannot afford to upgrade their computer and therefore their software...

D.

dannyF wrote:

joeyluck wrote:I'm still having a hard time understanding why there would be any fuss if this is the case (if SDK1 is no longer supported/available to developers). Some people seem to really dig for stuff to complain about these days.  

dannyF wrote:
And how much more futile is it to complain about their complaint?
 
 

Not a complaint from my end; a confusion.

If this is the case, I'm merely trying to set people at ease. Just trying to explain to them the nature with all software and moving forward. Again, this notion of SDK1 vs SDK2 meaning 'custom display' or 'no custom display' is wrong. Whenever someone sees a RE and says, "Why is this not SDK1?" Simply because they don't see a custom display is the incorrect way to look at it. We know that there are more improvements than that in SDK2 (and supposedly more as of recent mentioned in another thread). 

Aside from just accepting that...
This would only affect Reason 6.5 users.
Again, Reason 6 was PWYW.  
And even if you paid something, you were not paying for the feature of Rack Extensions.
Reason 6.5 integrated Rack Extensions and it was free.

So, at this point in time, those that would lose support for future REs would be folks who have yet to pay for a version of Reason that integrates the Rack Extension technology.
Maybe remembering that will help set them at ease?

Nobody loses any REs they purchased that were built with SDK1.
Nobody was promised that REs would continue to be built with an old SDK to be used with an old version of the software. I only care that those users can continue to use the REs they have purchased on the version of Reason they use.
But the answer is easy and I don't see any reason in dragging it out. Just upgrade. I upgraded to Reason 7 mostly just for MIDI Out. I prioritized for myself.

While I agree that it shouldn't be a big deal if we want Reason and the REs to move forward,
I was just pointing out that there might be factors that might prevent someone from upgrading.

D.

eusti wrote:While I agree that it shouldn't be a big deal if we want Reason and the REs to move forward,
I was just pointing out that there might be factors that might prevent someone from upgrading.

D.

I understand that. Which is why I'm just pointing out that we simply need to upgrade to upgrade. We're talking about future REs here. Many REs that we don't even yet know about and REs that haven't even been thought up yet. 

Now, if someone was to argue that they are staying on the free Reason 6.5 because they can't or don't want to pay to upgrade their system or OS, yet are hopeful to buy lots of newer REs far into the future for an older version of the software, that is where I get confused. It's just a difference in priorities...

I am still on Reason 7. If Reason 8 introduces SDK3 and with it comes REs I like, you can bet I'll be upgrading. And if I don't upgrade to Reason 8 and Reason 8/9 is required for me to purchase any future REs, you can bet I'll be upgrading. Even if that means upgrading my system and OS. Of course, that's under the notion that I want to keep buying optional plugins...

joeyluck wrote: I understand that. Which is why I'm just pointing out that we simply need to upgrade to upgrade. We're talking about future REs here. Many REs that we don't even yet know about and REs that haven't even been thought up yet.

Now, if someone was to argue that they are staying on the free Reason 6.5 because they can't or don't want to pay to upgrade their system or OS, yet are hopeful to buy lots of newer REs far into the future for an older version of the software, that is where I get confused. It's just a difference in priorities...

Agreed!

joeyluck wrote: I am still on Reason 7. If Reason 8 introduces SDK3 and with it comes REs I like, you can bet I'll be upgrading. And if I don't upgrade to Reason 8 and Reason 8/9 is required for me to purchase any future REs, you can bet I'll be upgrading. Even if that means upgrading my system and OS. Of course, that's under the notion that I want to keep buying optional plugins...

This is what makes me suspect that there is going to be a new SDK coming soonish... Only for 8.5 (or 9) and up...

Despite having owned Reason 7 since June 2014, I was still only using 6.5 until a few weeks ago when I replaced my computer. My previous computer was a 2009 iMac that performed respectably enough on OS X 10.6 but was basically useless on 10.7 or newer. Because Reason 7 requires OS X 10.7 or newer to run, I was out of luck. There are probably others in similar situations to what I was in.

Weird. I'm running Reason 7.1 and Mac OS 10.9.5 on my late 2008 MacBook Pro with no issues.

It's a 2.4 GHz Core 2 Duo with 4GB RAM.

I'm sure you are happy with your upgrade anyways