Tonicmint ScaleMatrix in the shop.

[Vil]

I have a suggestion. I love scalematrix, but it has a very limiting factor, that is that it can only play one type of chord throughout the selected scale. And that's done by selecting root,third,fifth etc. As of now all these settings apply to the whole scale.
What i was suggesting is that since there is already a built in scale tools feature, where you can build the scale and save it. Then you can load up that scale in one of the slots.
So basically the scale notes column (after the scale selection column ) is redundant.
What i was suggesting is why not use this column to select a note instead.
So let's say i load up C# minor scale in the first slot. Now i select a note (from the note select column(currently scale notes column).
Now all the settings like root note third fifth,octave inversion which are now per scale would become per note.
So let's say that when i play C note i want it to play a triad, so i select the c note and then select root,third and fifth note.
But on D note i want it to play a seventh chord, so i select the D note the select root third a fifth and seventh.
Or for example on f note i could select a diminished chord with hi octave note and 2nd inversion.
So the point is to have different chord selections playing rather than a triad or seventh on the whole scale.

Hope this suggestion seems useful
And hope that you could implement it too.

As I understand, would you like to see somekind of ChordLine functionality inside the ScaleMatrix

Actually ScaleMatrix has a built in workaround for this, this is one of the purposes why ScaleMatrix has rows. I know, for this you have to use 2 hands, but in this way you can switch between the chordshapes not just for a specific note, but anytime when you wish. In a nutshell, you can use the Scale knob in ScaleMatrix for a similar way, like you using the Notes knob in Scales & Chords.

In ScaleMatrix the 7 row with different scales are good for experimenting, but in a performance perspective maybe 1 or 2 scale is usually enough, and you can utilize the rows for the different chordshapes.

I tried to keep simple this device, and some aspects this already too complex... so i would like to skip this, but good to know this device is still inspiring in various ways

Just for a quick clarification, if someone reads quickly your words.

• One row in the ScaleMatrix usually generates different type of chords. For example 1-3-5 chordnote setting produces major, minor or diminished chords on a diatonic scales depending on the incoming note. (As expected) Of course there are some special cases, where it is not true: if your scale is the chromatic scale, or built by other evenly spaced notes (like whole tone scale), the produced chord will has same quality for each incoming note.

• Scale Tools in ScaleMatrix (currently) are just for selecting scales from the huge libraries. For designing you have to use the Scale Notes section or the new randomization features (see the dropdown menu in the right end of the rows)

[visheshl]

Oh yeah, it just didn't cross my mind that i could have different chord shapes in different slots, oops...sorry to bother you...yeah it works

[crimsonwarlock]

I recently picked up ScaleMatrix. So far, I like it a lot, but there is one important thing missing for me: a separate output for the root note of the generated chord. The obvious use is with Bassline Generator, but having the root note separately available makes a lot of sense for other complex setups as well.

Is there any chance we might see this in an update?

[visheshl]

I recently picked up ScaleMatrix. So far, I like it a lot, but there is one important thing missing for me: a separate output for the root note of the generated chord. The obvious use is with Bassline Generator, but having the root note separately available makes a lot of sense for other complex setups as well.

Is there any chance we might see this in an update?

Well just turn off the other notes...you can see which notes are on...so if you're using it for basslines, only have the root note on...

[Vil]

I recently picked up ScaleMatrix. So far, I like it a lot, but there is one important thing missing for me: a separate output for the root note of the generated chord. The obvious use is with Bassline Generator, but having the root note separately available makes a lot of sense for other complex setups as well.

Is there any chance we might see this in an update?

I saw Ryan's video, and yes this could be very useful.
In ScaleMatrix this is not a trivial problem .... delays... multiple available chords at same time... even simultaneously ... so not just few lines in the code,
but it is definitely a suggestion to be considered!

[crimsonwarlock]

Well just turn off the other notes...you can see which notes are on...so if you're using it for basslines, only have the root note on...

Yep, you obviously didn't understand the question

In ScaleMatrix this is not a trivial problem .... delays... multiple available chords at same time... even simultaneously ... so not just few lines in the code,
but it is definitely a suggestion to be considered!

Oh, I'm very well aware that most things in software are NOT simple (take a look at my signature below ). Just considering it is enough for me, meaning it could happen some day. It is indeed useful for any chord-generating player, that's why Cord Sequencer has it, and RetouchControl's ChordSQ has it as well.

Maybe someone (you?) could make a separate player which gets the root note from a chord that is played through it, but my gut feeling says that might be even more complicated.

[visheshl]

Well just turn off the other notes...you can see which notes are on...so if you're using it for basslines, only have the root note on...

Yep, you obviously didn't understand the question

In ScaleMatrix this is not a trivial problem .... delays... multiple available chords at same time... even simultaneously ... so not just few lines in the code,
but it is definitely a suggestion to be considered!

Oh, I'm very well aware that most things in software are NOT simple (take a look at my signature below ). Just considering it is enough for me, meaning it could happen some day. It is indeed useful for any chord-generating player, that's why Cord Sequencer has it, and RetouchControl's ChordSQ has it as well.

Maybe someone (you?) could make a separate player which gets the root note from a chord that is played through it, but my gut feeling says that might be even more complicated.

Ok well maybe i did not understand your question...but sure why not have the option of a separate out for the root note...in case the root note needs an out

[crimsonwarlock]

Ok well maybe i did not understand your question...but sure why not have the option of a separate out for the root note...in case the root note needs an out

The question was (quite obviously) about getting the root note for the chord that is playing. Switching of the notes of the chord (as you suggested) makes ScaleMatrix outputting a root note but NOT a chord. So, you indeed didn't understand the question.

Now, if you look at the Ryan's videos about Chord Sequencer and BassLine Generator, you get a good idea why I was asking this. As I also said here, RetouchControl's ChordSQ also has a separate root-note out, for the same obvious use-case. This all illustrates the "case" where a root note needs an out.

But, of course, you are using RRP in another DAW, so you don't have the luxury of syncing different player stacks across tracks

[Vil]

a limited workaround:

1. ScaleMatrix with desired scales, without transpositions, and in "filter" mode, in any "performance" mode, and the "chords" just contains the root
2. CV Player Tap
3. ScaleMatrix with same scales, without transpositions, and in "filter" mode, in "normal" "performance" mode, and the "chords" can be anything....

workaround.png (511.29 KiB) Viewed 2365 times

not perfect, not ultimate, but this solution also have additional features, depending on what notes and how you extract by CVPT...

[Bes]

visheshl's suggestion is pretty spot on. when your scale matrix patch is complete, copy and paste the parameters onto a separate scale matrix atop a bassline gen then remove the unwanted notes. then trigger both scale matrix's from the same source

[Bes]

Vil's suggestion is a little more elegant than mine

[Vil]

sorry, not marked on the image, but "normal" performance mode is important in the 2nd ScaleMatrix, dont forget that...
also not marked the "filter" modes!

so my solution is limited in many ways, but also opens other opportunities to explore

[crimsonwarlock]

a limited workaround:

Nice one. Not able to try it out right now, but one observation/question: it seems to me that the root-note from the first ScaleMatrix instance will traverse down the player stack, doesn't that mean the root-note will get two key-signals? Depending on how the instrument handles polyphony it might play that note doubled. If this is the case though, it might be possible to set the root-note instance to a lower octave (for bass that is preferred) and then put a note filter after the player TAP to block that root-note.

Enough ideas to experiment with. Thanks for the pointers.

EDIT: It didn't occur to me directly that the second instance is being played by the first instance, so the double note problem doesn't exist that way.

[crimsonwarlock]

visheshl's suggestion is pretty spot on. when your scale matrix patch is complete, copy and paste the parameters onto a separate scale matrix atop a bassline gen then remove the unwanted notes. then trigger both scale matrix's from the same source

The problem with this solution (although acceptable as a workaround) is that you need to keep the ScaleMatrix instances in sync by copying. When experimenting with chord progressions, this can be a serious flow inhibitor. The whole idea for a separate root-note out is that everything runs from one chord generator where you can experiment and everything follows your experiments.

However, the other option I have is to play around with chords in ScaleMatrix and then move those to ChordSQ, which is a lot more work. So for now, Vil's solution will suffice.

Or maybe I just have to buy Chord Sequencer

[Vil]

If the ScaleMatrix is "on", it is always "swallow" the incoming note and generates new note/notes, if I understand well, what are you asking.... but youll see..

...oh and of course, one more thing for the workaround (just for the readers from the future) : you have to keep the scale selection in sync.
so the best, if you combine them and you can control them easily in sync....

----
update: i just noticed now, you mentioned the required syncronizations..

[Stygian Abyss]

Maybe you could also try this as another workaround. I wrote it while Vil was writing his, he was faster than me but here it is anyway.

Create a second ScaleMatrix above your bass instrument, copy-paste the original's patch and deactivate all notes but the root. Optionally, deactivate the root note in the original ScaleMatrix, as it may sounds redundant. Then put a MIDI-CV converter or CVPT above each ScaleMatrix and connect them to copy the MIDI data received by the original to the second.

You should obtain what you want if, of course, I have understood the question.

But, of course, you are using RRP in another DAW, so you don't have the luxury of syncing different player stacks across tracks

Some DAWs, such as Bitwig Studio I also use, allow any VST or built-in device to receive MIDI data output from any VST/device in other tracks. I haven't had the need to try it yet, as this system allows to feed several tracks with the multi-channel MIDI output of one RRP instance, but in such cases, syncing Player stacks between several instances of the RRP should also be possible.

[crimsonwarlock]

Some DAWs, such as Bitwig Studio I also use, allow any VST or built-in device to receive MIDI data output from any VST/device in other tracks. I haven't had the need to try it yet, as this system allows to feed several tracks with the multi-channel MIDI output of one RRP instance, but in such cases, syncing Player stacks between several instances of the RRP should also be possible.

I know things like that are possible, I used Reaper for over a decade, and it is possible there. But the workflow to do things like that are miles away from Reason, where you just plug a cable between two devices, and you're done. Besides that, I was pointing at players that have a separate output for the root-note, and I doubt you can use that outside the RRP, or at least it's not easy.

[Stygian Abyss]

I know things like that are possible, I used Reaper for over a decade, and it is possible there. But the workflow to do things like that are miles away from Reason, where you just plug a cable between two devices, and you're done.

Totally agree with that, that's why I don't use such a method but one RRP with several MIDI Out devices to rule them all.

Besides that, I was pointing at players that have a separate output for the root-note, and I doubt you can use that outside the RRP, or at least it's not easy.

You absolutely can send a separate root note output outside of the RRP, using CVPT or MIDI-CV above a MIDI Out device; this may not seem as easy as doing everything inside the RRP, but doing so allows to send the root note or any other MIDI stream to other plugins such as VSTs. Thus, in those DAWs, the RRP's ineptitude to load them directly is less problematic.

Vil, your ScaleMatrix root note workaround is very nice.

[crimsonwarlock]

You absolutely can send a separate root note output outside of the RRP, using CVPT or MIDI-CV above a MIDI Out device; this may not seem as easy as doing everything inside the RRP, but doing so allows to send the root note or any other MIDI stream to other plugins such as VSTs.

That's a workaround that shows exactly one of the reasons I like Reason DAW over other DAWs. When you need to output the separate root note through (I think) another MIDI out device, it becomes even more convoluted to get the routing outside the RRP setup in that DAW. I never used any MIDI or control routing across tracks in Reaper because it was a total mess to setup, and changing things afterwards usual did break things. Reaper is a routing powerhouse, but routing was the thing I hated the most in Reaper.

My guess is that most people who don't like the cables in Reason, never tried to do things you do with cables in Reason, in another DAW with whatever is available there to route things.

As for workarounds for ScaleMatrix, I think I'm going to grab Chord Sequencer. Initially, I thought they could replace each other, so why have both. But I can use Cord Sequencer together with ScaleMatrix to learn and sequence the ScaleMatrix generated chords, and that will also give me the root-note out.

[crimsonwarlock]

I found another workaround which seems to work and is REALLY simple: Just drop a CVPT under ScaleMatrix and connect the first CV output to Bassline Generator and the first gate-out to the bass instrument. This gives the root-note, even when using inversions in ScaleMatrix. At least as far as I tested this. So, implementing root-note out in ScaleMatrix might be unneeded, as this is as easy to use and no need to use two ScaleMatrix instances that need to be kept in sync for the chords.

Strangely enough, you need to connect the corresponding gate out from CVPT to the gate-in of the instrument that is being played by Bassline Generator, otherwise it won't work. This seems to be an oversight in BLG, so I'm going to submit a ticket for that. This is not ScaleMatrix related, as I have the same effect when using ChordSQ, which has a dedicated root-note out.

[crimsonwarlock]

OK, so I submitted a ticket to RS and got a response. It seems that ChordSQ has some sort of bug where it won't output the root-note when the corresponding gate signal is not connected.

So, I checked again with ScaleMatrix connected to a CV Player Tap, and indeed that works as it should. Simply connecting the first note-out of CVPT to Bassline Generator works as it should. Nothing else needed

[Stygian Abyss]

I found another workaround which seems to work and is REALLY simple: Just drop a CVPT under ScaleMatrix and connect the first CV output to Bassline Generator and the first gate-out to the bass instrument. This gives the root-note, even when using inversions in ScaleMatrix.

Being very interested in this possibility, I did some root note extraction tests with CVPT as you described, and also with the sequential switch in Delta. In both cases, I unfortunately found that ScaleMatrix always outputs notes in ascending pitch order without taking care of the inversion setting (Vil, if you read this, can you confirm it ?), thus simple root note extraction as you described is only possible, at least on my system, when the chord is in its fundamental state.

Anyway, this inspired me this suggestion: if adding a root note output is too complex to implement, maybe a third small option button to choose if chord notes should come out of ScaleMatrix in ascending pitch order or always in the fundamental order regardless of the selected chord inversion could be easier to implement, an just as useful.

[crimsonwarlock]

Being very interested in this possibility, I did some root note extraction tests with CVPT as you described, and also with the sequential switch in Delta. In both cases, I unfortunately found that ScaleMatrix always outputs notes in ascending pitch order without taking care of the inversion setting

Aaah, I tried again and found that I forgot to mention one important detail: you have to switch on one of the options in the 'roots' column of ScaleMatrix. This will give a consistent root note in a lower register that is not affected by the inversions. If needed you can filter out the generated root note after the CVPT with any note filter.

So ScaleMatrix basically already generates a root note, you just have to switch it on in the root column

[Stygian Abyss]

Aaah, I tried again and found that I forgot to mention one important detail: you have to switch on one of the options in the 'roots' column of ScaleMatrix.

Aaah, now I understand why we had different results, you were talking about the additional root notes, not the main chord one. That indeed does work to reliably extract the root note and is a nice workaround.
But being able to reliably extract all notes using Delta would be even better.

[crimsonwarlock]

But being able to reliably extract all notes using Delta would be even better.

Probably, but I don't own Delta (yet) so I can't help you there

But it is great fun to hook up players across tracks. I'm also feeding the root note or the full chord into RetouchControl's NoteSet with great results. Like generating bass lines from BeatMap