Ochen K?

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Goodbye
Posts: 122
Joined: 21 May 2017

14 Nov 2017

The only viable path for a RE dev to continue is to become a VST developer, but I have no interest in that.
Really sad to hear this. Big fan of your A-series and always hoped for more. Propellerhead have been making some poor decisions of late.

Hope you'll return to RE development some day.

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Flavolous
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Location: ZW | GB

14 Nov 2017

Goodbye wrote:
14 Nov 2017
The only viable path for a RE dev to continue is to become a VST developer, but I have no interest in that.
Really sad to hear this. Big fan of your A-series and always hoped for more. Propellerhead have been making some poor decisions of late.

Hope you'll return to RE development some day.
I think Propellerhead are also just slow as hell. To think that for Reason 10 there were no improvements just extra content, fair enough a lot of effort goes into content creation, but when you just opened up to the world of VSTs its kind of a sideways move to then say R10 is a content upgrade...R9.5 was also a content upgrade if you think about it. So people who wanted to spend money on the upgrade could just get a bunch of VSTs during BF. I really want REs to move forward and succeed but if the only benefit they bring to the table over the next few years is CV functionality & speedy authorisation then I'm forced to agree with what Ochen K said. If you're a RE developer what reason do you have to stick around creating on a closed platform with limitations when you access to more customers on an open platform with signifcantly less building restrictions. Essentially the SDK needs to move forward fast to because its now got a competitor...

Goodbye
Posts: 122
Joined: 21 May 2017

14 Nov 2017

Flavolous wrote:
14 Nov 2017
Goodbye wrote:
14 Nov 2017


Really sad to hear this. Big fan of your A-series and always hoped for more. Propellerhead have been making some poor decisions of late.

Hope you'll return to RE development some day.
I think Propellerhead are also just slow as hell. To think that for Reason 10 there were no improvements just extra content, fair enough a lot of effort goes into content creation, but when you just opened up to the world of VSTs its kind of a sideways move to then say R10 is a content upgrade...R9.5 was also a content upgrade if you think about it. So people who wanted to spend money on the upgrade could just get a bunch of VSTs during BF. I really want REs to move forward and succeed but if the only benefit they bring to the table over the next few years is CV functionality & speedy authorisation then I'm forced to agree with what Ochen K said. If you're a RE developer what reason do you have to stick around creating on a closed platform with limitations when you access to more customers on an open platform with signifcantly less building restrictions. Essentially the SDK needs to move forward fast to because its now got a competitor...
Yep. It's frustrating as hell. I hope they have something big in the pipeline, but I just don't think they are interested. I guess the upside for us is that RE prices come right down, but long-term I think REs are going to fade away.

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avasopht
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14 Nov 2017

Goodbye wrote:
14 Nov 2017

Yep. It's frustrating as hell. I hope they have something big in the pipeline, but I just don't think they are interested. I guess the upside for us is that RE prices come right down, but long-term I think REs are going to fade away.
Well they could have not given VST to R9 owners for free and just packaged that in R10, but instead they chose to give us a killer new feature in R9.

In R10 we get two new instruments that are pretty advanced. Whether it's your cup of tea, it is a substantial amount of work required to get right.

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Gorgon
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14 Nov 2017

avasopht wrote:
14 Nov 2017
Well they could have not given VST to R9 owners for free and just packaged that in R10, but instead they chose to give us a killer new feature in R9.
This is what they should have done. No idea what made them think otherwise. 10 is a milestone. You need something special with such an upgrade. Something that changes the game, or the deck, whatever. And not just:
In R10 we get two new instruments that are pretty advanced. Whether it's your cup of tea, it is a substantial amount of work required to get right.
"This is a block of text that can be added to posts you make. There is a 255 character limit."

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dvdrtldg
Posts: 898
Joined: 17 Jan 2015

14 Nov 2017

Sorry to hear you won't be making y more REs, yours have been really cool and unique devices

I'm a happy & regular user of Glitch, Carve, EDS06, Probability CV Trigger and (especially) CV Tuner

Steedus
Posts: 77
Joined: 31 Aug 2015

14 Nov 2017

ochenk wrote:
14 Nov 2017
Future RE development
And yeah, I’ve mentioned it elsewhere, but I’m not actively making any REs anymore. As a Reason user, VST support is awesome and I love it. But it completely cuts the knees off of the RE market. The only viable path for a RE dev to continue is to become a VST developer, but I have no interest in that.
Ochen
For what's it's worth, like you I am solely a Reason user, and having never really used VSTs before I gave a few a try when VST support came to Reason. However the experience has been pretty poor in terms of authorising, registering, and finally performance. I MUCH prefer rack extensions. In fact I'd say the addition of VST support has made me appreciate rack extensions even more. I'm a hobbyist, so ease of use is far more important to me.

Goodbye
Posts: 122
Joined: 21 May 2017

14 Nov 2017

avasopht wrote:
14 Nov 2017
Goodbye wrote:
14 Nov 2017

Yep. It's frustrating as hell. I hope they have something big in the pipeline, but I just don't think they are interested. I guess the upside for us is that RE prices come right down, but long-term I think REs are going to fade away.
Well they could have not given VST to R9 owners for free and just packaged that in R10, but instead they chose to give us a killer new feature in R9.

In R10 we get two new instruments that are pretty advanced. Whether it's your cup of tea, it is a substantial amount of work required to get right.
I'm really talking about their approach to REs. Personally I think releasing VST support, then failing to fix the issues or address the problems in 10 is pretty lame, but more importantly they have been pulling the rug out from under VST devs.

- add VST support so now they have vastly more competition and no reason to port VST to RE.
- release two synths with 10 that are in direct completion with RE synths recently released.
- introduce subscription model.

Feels like they've totally lost confidence in REs as a platform. I wonder if the SDK will get any more updates. I seriously doubt it. The only real hope is that the project eating up all their resources - the iOS version of Reason - will bring life back to the RE market if it ever gets released.

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Flavolous
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Location: ZW | GB

15 Nov 2017

Gorgon wrote:
14 Nov 2017
avasopht wrote:
14 Nov 2017
Well they could have not given VST to R9 owners for free and just packaged that in R10, but instead they chose to give us a killer new feature in R9.
This is what they should have done. No idea what made them think otherwise. 10 is a milestone. You need something special with such an upgrade. Something that changes the game, or the deck, whatever. And not just:
In R10 we get two new instruments that are pretty advanced. Whether it's your cup of tea, it is a substantial amount of work required to get right.
This is like the no brainer of the century, one only has to take a moment to realise just how many people would pay for the upgrade on day 1! I'm certain 90% of users from previous versions would have bought in if VSTs were strictly from R10. Add to that the content which they worked hard to put together (and its top quality content from my experience in the beta), I think that would have sounded like a much bigger deal, I think after 9.5 was announced people just expected a bit more for an upgrade in terms of must haves. Grain is the only must have from the upgrade imo. All the other stuff not so much, so you have to think if one spends £130 can you purchase something as capable or more capable than Grain.

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O1B
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15 Nov 2017

10? That's so special cause it's so arbitrary.
Gorgon wrote:
14 Nov 2017
10 is a milestone. You need something special with such an upgrade. Something that changes the game, or the deck, whatever. And not just:
Image

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JiggeryPokery
Posts: 818
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15 Nov 2017

Flavolous wrote:
15 Nov 2017
content which they worked hard to put together (and its top quality content from my experience in the beta), I think that would have sounded like a much bigger deal, Grain is the only must have from the upgrade imo.
Think about this for a moment: How is cheaply licensing in other peoples' existing and long-since amortized samplesets "working hard"?

Answer: it is not.

That's not saying licensing is automatically a bad thing per se: all or nearly all of the FSB/ORK sample content is likewise, but licensing is pretty much a definition of not working hard: it's a short-cut designed to circumvent effort for long-term reward for small upfront outlay, that itself is a lot, lot less than the cost of doing the work new from scratch in terms of time and labour. Licensing, as in this model, is not even getting someone else to work hard, as again, that hard work has almost certainly already been paid for via previous sales in other formats.

And then to compound the effortless shortcut of licensing, when you look at the Drum Supply Kong Kits, for example, you'll find they use a single text pad template across all patches, regardless of the content of the pad. Thus you end up with claps labelled as snares, lo and hi congas labelled as lo and hi toms (and either side of an actual mid tom just to make it extra stupid), etc etc, and fuck knows what any of the Perc pads do until you press them. I know that's a brutal and typically sweary assessment, but it's right there in the Reason 10 install for everyone to see if they choose to look and think about it what they're seeing and listening to. And failure to label pads is the very definition of half-arsed and lazy, and just generally not being bothered to do any polishing. It's shameful, and all for the lack of spending a morning auditioning pads and labelling them properly.

Yes, it's a chore, a bit of a grind and not as fun as gurning for Likes on Facebook live streams, but that's the difference between marketeers running the show and actual product managers who can manage a product and its content, aware it's the little details that make the difference between a good-looking headline and a usable product. Chores are what hard-working developers and hard-working content creators have to do, and not doing those text labels is the primary indicator to me of how much care and diligence Reason 10 had applied to it, and the sad fact is that demonstrably there was no attention to detail at all.

I've been playing with Grain the last few days. It is cool in and of itself, but after a while it becomes apparent it's rather a one-trick one pony. It does one thing quite well, but then gets a bit samey and the omissions start to become apparent. Heck, it doesn't even have reverse sample playback (other than manually using Sample Edit, but that would be a workaround using a general Reason tool, not a synth feature and so not something you can change on-the-fly, it's an either/or decision, short of creating two devices). So the grains and spectral edit are cool features for sure, and it absolutely offers something not otherwise native to Reason, and as such may be worth the upgrade in and of itself to a lot of people. But it is limited, and together with Europa, I suspect many developers—as I'm sure Ochen, whose spot-on assessment yesterday rebooted this thread, also knows—are well aware they were clearly designed to rip off the best bits of two or three sample-loading REs as native devices that can run more efficiently than any RE will ever be able to. And it's strange how much devs are told PH want to boost RE sales, yet they neuter the market with similar native devices, thus reducing the need for RE purchases, for desperately short-termist goals like subscriptions and VST support. Don't buy that whole "VST was decided long before Verdane" line. Given that VST support for Reason (or my guess here, it was a proposed feature for Record 1.0) was originally designed, to some extent at least, back in 2007, then yes, it's literally true, as it was decided long, long before Verdane!

What many fail to realise with those kinds of carefully worded official statements, is that it's very specifically not the same as the decision to actually implement VST support when it was, and that can only have been for it to have been placed on the table as either a demand from Verdane last year, or, vastly more likely, as a very large and specific carrot for all potential investors in a pie-chart infused PowerPoint presentation* as early as Summer 2016. Investments don't have happen overnight, and we know from MHG's own posts that he was pushing hard for VST support, despite the fact that SDK2.5 was being worked on at the time, a clear conflict-of-interest imho. Given that the VST support release was right after SDK2.5 launched, it's hard to come to any other conclusion than VST support was added when it was specifically in order to faciliate investment from someone. Any sensible business plan would have dictated giving SDK2.5 a chance to bed in and resolve new issues, and effectively amortize itself through new REs, but there was demonstrably never any serious intention to do that once it was decided to get that investment and buy-out.

Oh, and subscriptions? We were hoodwinked. Utterly hoodwinked.

_____

*This is a complete guess. It could well have been floating bar charts, the clever-looking ones that involve painting the first value the same as a background... I still have nightmares about PowerPoint.

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Loque
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15 Nov 2017

JiggeryPokery wrote:
15 Nov 2017
TBH, i have some kind of bad feeling, that actually some high class RE were pretty cheap and i think the devs may know something, that a lot of ppl will not want to hear here...

I think, PH needs to persuade a lot of its old users with the point update about the future of Reason, otherwise there might be more "good byes" in future. And subscriptions may be a good thing, if you have a big bunch of users and Reason has maybe 20,000?
:reason: 10, Win10 64Bit.

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Exowildebeest
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15 Nov 2017

I've been playing with Grain the last few days. It is cool in and of itself, but after a while it becomes apparent it's rather a one-trick one pony. It does one thing quite well, but then gets a bit samey and the omissions start to become apparent. Heck, it doesn't even have reverse sample playback
It does - the start playhead can be moved beyond the end point, then it'll play in reverse. I think Grain is fantastic and "one trick pony" is really not doing it justice imo. That said, plenty could be improved, and I feel R10 was a bit rushed (maybe it's because of Mattias' inexperience as product manager (sorry Mattias, I'm sure you'll get into it).

Ontopic: thanks Ochen for checking in and for your RE's. You were often ahead of the times. Hope you'll continue to get some beer money off Glitch and other RE's that I'm sure quite a few Reason users will continue to use and buy. Also, I wouldn't worry too much about the RE market - growth of the userbase has the potential to compensate for a decrease in sales because of VST. And besides that, the new situation should encourage users and developers to start viewing RE's and VST as distinct platforms, each with their own uses and advantages and disadvantages within Reason. We'll see what the future brings.

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Flavolous
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Location: ZW | GB

15 Nov 2017

Loque wrote:
15 Nov 2017
JiggeryPokery wrote:
15 Nov 2017
TBH, i have some kind of bad feeling, that actually some high class RE were pretty cheap and i think the devs may know something, that a lot of ppl will not want to hear here...

I think, PH needs to persuade a lot of its old users with the point update about the future of Reason, otherwise there might be more "good byes" in future. And subscriptions may be a good thing, if you have a big bunch of users and Reason has maybe 20,000?
I think its safer not to have high hopes in this climate with Reason!

I don't see myself ever saying goodbye to Reason, but I think definitely it would be advantageous to start looking to learn something like Logic/Studio One who are a little bit more progressive minded. There are some excellent REs I would definitely want access to Rewired. The current technological climate is fast moving, and its an absolute mistake to allow yourself to fall behind because of loyalty.

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Gorgon
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15 Nov 2017

O1B wrote:
15 Nov 2017
10? That's so special cause it's so arbitrary.
"This is a block of text that can be added to posts you make. There is a 255 character limit."

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eXode
Posts: 595
Joined: 11 Feb 2015

15 Nov 2017

My personal opinion is similar to Ochen K and Jiggery Pokery.

RE devs were put in a bad spot by propellerheads through slow SDK development, added VST support to the platforn, and further cannabilized upon through forced subscriptions.

And to top it of propellerheads do Reason 10 as a content update, including devices that directly competes with RE developers.

I can only speak for myself (note: I don't speak for blamsoft), but there is about zero incitement for me to be involved in developing any more REs.
Last edited by eXode on 15 Nov 2017, edited 1 time in total.

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MattiasHG
Posts: 139
Joined: 16 Jan 2015

15 Nov 2017

JiggeryPokery wrote:
15 Nov 2017
I've been playing with Grain the last few days. It is cool in and of itself, but after a while it becomes apparent it's rather a one-trick one pony. It does one thing quite well, but then gets a bit samey and the omissions start to become apparent. Heck, it doesn't even have reverse sample playback (other than manually using Sample Edit, but that would be a workaround using a general Reason tool, not a synth feature and so not something you can change on-the-fly, it's an either/or decision, short of creating two devices). So the grains and spectral edit are cool features for sure, and it absolutely offers something not otherwise native to Reason, and as such may be worth the upgrade in and of itself to a lot of people. But it is limited, and together with Europa, I suspect many developers—as I'm sure Ochen, whose spot-on assessment yesterday rebooted this thread, also knows—are well aware they were clearly designed to rip off the best bits of two or three sample-loading REs as native devices that can run more efficiently than any RE will ever be able to. And it's strange how much devs are told PH want to boost RE sales, yet they neuter the market with similar native devices, thus reducing the need for RE purchases, for desperately short-termist goals like subscriptions and VST support. Don't buy that whole "VST was decided long before Verdane" line. Given that VST support for Reason (or my guess here, it was a proposed feature for Record 1.0) was originally designed, to some extent at least, back in 2007, then yes, it's literally true, as it was decided long, long before Verdane!

What many fail to realise with those kinds of carefully worded official statements, is that it's very specifically not the same as the decision to actually implement VST support when it was, and that can only have been for it to have been placed on the table as either a demand from Verdane last year, or, vastly more likely, as a very large and specific carrot for all potential investors in a pie-chart infused PowerPoint presentation* as early as Summer 2016. Investments don't have happen overnight, and we know from MHG's own posts that he was pushing hard for VST support, despite the fact that SDK2.5 was being worked on at the time, a clear conflict-of-interest imho. Given that the VST support release was right after SDK2.5 launched, it's hard to come to any other conclusion than VST support was added when it was specifically in order to faciliate investment from someone. Any sensible business plan would have dictated giving SDK2.5 a chance to bed in and resolve new issues, and effectively amortize itself through new REs, but there was demonstrably never any serious intention to do that once it was decided to get that investment and buy-out.
Couple things:
  • VST support came to be because it was the number one feature request and the things that kept the most people from checking out Reason. When I became Product Manager, all research I did pointed toward it being essentials for Reason as a DAW.
  • Europa and Grain are Rack Extensions built with the same SDK you have access to but presented as native devices for ease of use. In other words, they are not running more efficiently because of the platform. We eat our own dog food, so to speak.
  • When designing Europa, we actually tried hard to differentiate it from eXpanse—not rip anything off. Expanse is a great synth in its own right and still unique next to Europa. When designing these instruments we primarily looked at user needs and the market at large, not specific products.
  • I personally still don't think VST is a conflict of interest with REs in the long run. My hope was (and still is) that it becomes very apparent why we created REs to begin with. Personally, after getting a lot of VSTs for testing purposes, I've ended up just using three or four. The rest of my devices are REs. It's just easier to work with in the Reason environment.
  • We'll keep updating the Rack Extension SDK and platform. We believe in it and it does amazing things that no other plug-in format does.

EdGrip
Posts: 720
Joined: 03 Jun 2016

15 Nov 2017

Here's my sample viewpoint:
While I'm really glad to have access to a handful of carefully-chosen VSTs, and using them and hearing them is a pleasure, using them is also a reminder of how much I prefer and appreciate using RE devices directly in the rack.

I feel a bit bad about only buying REs in sales, but I'm very much an unproductive and aimless hobbyist so I find it hard to justify spending lots on plugins.

The recent Blamsoft sale, while a boon for Reason users, did make me a bit worried about what mysterious forces might be behind that sale. I'm very sad to hear that eXode feels the RE market is impacted such that we won't see more gems like eXpanse and VK-2. I'm VERY glad to own VK-2 and if my tastes leaned a bit more deadmau5, I would certainly have bought eXpanse as well. (I know it's scope is far larger than that - I'm just saying I'm in more of a virtual analogue vibe right now)
I'm curious about what (if any) discussions resulted in the eXpanse 3 update bringing features also found in Europa, released at basically the same time.

What with eXpanse, VK-2, and The Legend (the VST version of which is basically a little slice of Reason Rack in VST form - you flip it to access back panel settings) it felt like Rack Extension instruments were just getting into their stride. These are unapologetically modern 2017 software instruments.

I continue to be an RE customer and I haven't yet bought a VST instead of a competing RE. But I understand that from the RE devs' point of view, it's all about sales, and if it's no longer viable to develop such lovely instruments and effects, that's a huge shame.

Goodbye
Posts: 122
Joined: 21 May 2017

15 Nov 2017

gurning for Likes on Facebook live streams
This definitely appears to be the new Propellerhead 'strategy'.

Goodbye
Posts: 122
Joined: 21 May 2017

15 Nov 2017

VST support came to be because it was the number one feature request and the things that kept the most people from checking out Reason. When I became Product Manager, all research I did pointed toward it being essentials for Reason as a DAW.
Was this the same research that suggested what Reason users really want is three romplers and lots of second hand samples, and no fixes or new features?
When designing Europa, we actually tried hard to differentiate it from eXpanse—not rip anything off. Expanse is a great synth in its own right and still unique next to Europa. When designing these instruments we primarily looked at user needs and the market at large, not specific products.
But surely you can see how releasing Europa as part of the upgrade puts you in direct competition with developers using your platform. I get the decision to add Grain, but with Europa you are literally taking sales from developers.
I personally still don't think VST is a conflict of interest with REs in the long run. My hope was (and still is) that it becomes very apparent why we created REs to begin with. Personally, after getting a lot of VSTs for testing purposes, I've ended up just using three or four. The rest of my devices are REs. It's just easier to work with in the Reason environment.
It's pretty clear to everyone that the RE market is collapsing. Hope is lovely, but reality is troubling.
We'll keep updating the Rack Extension SDK and platform. We believe in it and it does amazing things that no other plug-in format does.
In the same way you have been ignoring countless valid user requests, you have also been ignoring valid requests and concerns from developers (two of which have explained their concerns in this thread). I guess only time will tell but it definitely appears that your users and RE developers have a lot less hope than you do.

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Aosta
Posts: 89
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15 Nov 2017

Exowildebeest wrote:
15 Nov 2017


Ontopic: thanks Ochen for checking in and for your RE's. You were often ahead of the times. Hope you'll continue to get some beer money off Glitch and other RE's that I'm sure quite a few Reason users will continue to use and buy
Yeah it's a shame to see one of the first cutting edge devs leave the arena. I still use Chip and Glitch is a great unit to play and twist around with. Maybe one day Ochen will return but hope he still hangs around.
Tend the flame

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MattiasHG
Posts: 139
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15 Nov 2017

I'll pre-face this post by saying it's always a bit hard to respond to your posts since you phrase your questions as accusations or sarcastic questions, but I'll do my best. Doesn't always end up being a constructive discussion. :)
Goodbye wrote:
15 Nov 2017
VST support came to be because it was the number one feature request and the things that kept the most people from checking out Reason. When I became Product Manager, all research I did pointed toward it being essentials for Reason as a DAW.
Was this the same research that suggested what Reason users really want is three romplers and lots of second hand samples, and no fixes or new features?
Refreshing the soundbank and acoustic instruments was primarily to make Reason's collection of sounds feel more up to date and broad for someone just getting into the application. It also appeals to a bunch of current Reason users, though obviously not everyone.
Goodbye wrote:
15 Nov 2017
When designing Europa, we actually tried hard to differentiate it from eXpanse—not rip anything off. Expanse is a great synth in its own right and still unique next to Europa. When designing these instruments we primarily looked at user needs and the market at large, not specific products.
But surely you can see how releasing Europa as part of the upgrade puts you in direct competition with developers using your platform. I get the decision to add Grain, but with Europa you are literally taking sales from developers.
To a certain extent, sure. Again, this is why we tried hard to make Europa and Expanse different (more focused selection of modifiers, oscillators and wavetables, one filter, increased focus on the innovative spectral filter/harmonics section, develop unique dynamic wavetables for noise and karplus strong etc.). Europa does not build on Expanse but rather on what users demand from a modern synthesizer. Expanse did a fantastic job of meeting many of those requirements, as did Serum, Massive etc. so it's no coincidence there are similarities. I still believe that people will keep looking for the instrument that fits them and that there are very valid differences between devices.

It's a bit of a strange position to be in though, I agree. With this mentality Reason could never add any new devices since they could compete with VSTs or REs, but that's also what we're known for and what many users and would-be users long for. With Reason 10 we just wanted to make sure that you get a good selection of instruments in the box so you can get started and then expand if you want to.
Goodbye wrote:
15 Nov 2017
I personally still don't think VST is a conflict of interest with REs in the long run. My hope was (and still is) that it becomes very apparent why we created REs to begin with. Personally, after getting a lot of VSTs for testing purposes, I've ended up just using three or four. The rest of my devices are REs. It's just easier to work with in the Reason environment.
It's pretty clear to everyone that the RE market is collapsing. Hope is lovely, but reality is troubling.
It's not though, we keep seeing new products releasing and sales are strong overall. And again, we're not abandoning the platform. We will keep on improving and focusing on the strengths therein!
Goodbye wrote:
15 Nov 2017
We'll keep updating the Rack Extension SDK and platform. We believe in it and it does amazing things that no other plug-in format does.
In the same way you have been ignoring countless valid user requests, you have also been ignoring valid requests and concerns from developers (two of which have explained their concerns in this thread). I guess only time will tell but it definitely appears that your users and RE developers have a lot less hope than you do.
We have also fulfilled countless valid user requests and will continue to do so. I've said it before but I'll say it again: we listen to what you say and work hard to make something we believe will make our users happy and have them make more music. We can't do everything at once, but we're not stopping any time soon.

seqoi
Posts: 90
Joined: 12 Aug 2017

15 Nov 2017

Well for once i am 15 year VST plugin user. Recently i jumped on Reason.

RE is REVELATION for me! If for anything it's for maintenance. Only when i saw how easy is to keep everything normal (as it should be) and how much less stress i am having and producing more music it honestly is revelation in peace of my mind. Plus top notch products. Viking 2 just WOW. Etc.Etc.

You can laugh but i did not realize until i tried Reason - how much i was actually annoyed buy constant bugs, updates and maintenance and how much this affected me in the long run. It is one of those things you actually can't see until you try another angle.

I was like this (comedy): wow they have one centralized place and i can hit sync and job done...wow...wow these plugins does not crash daw...wow..wait this daw does not act weird out of the blue...wow...wait these RE plugins are cross platform and i can send my file to a friend and if he have Mac or different supported host it will actually work..wow wait this just works..wow i can make music again..

RE - for me definitely. And as i said i was and still am VST plugin user.

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theshoemaker
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15 Nov 2017

I'll never start using anything like VST unless it get's as painless of managing installs and usability like REs in Reason. I love Gadget for that very same reason, albeit I hate the lack of great synths. I wish for something like Gadget on iOS with Reason. Looking forward to what will come.

And I can second the opinion for Europa and eXpanse. It's nothing close near comparable. Have a look at 4mer. Also something similar. no one is complaining. That's called competition and it is for the best. That's called innovation!

Europa has so many enhancements in workflow over Europa. I wish some of the feature will make it into Parsec: Like the envelopes. And the animations of the waveshapes from the Displays.
:PUF_figure: latest :reason: V9 on MacOS Sierra

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Innerst
Posts: 49
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Location: Norway

15 Nov 2017

seqoi wrote:
15 Nov 2017
Well for once i am 15 year VST plugin user. Recently i jumped on Reason.

RE is REVELATION for me! If for anything it's for maintenance. Only when i saw how easy is to keep everything normal (as it should be) and how much less stress i am having and producing more music it honestly is revelation in peace of my mind. Plus top notch products. Viking 2 just WOW. Etc.Etc.

You can laugh but i did not realize until i tried Reason - how much i was actually annoyed buy constant bugs, updates and maintenance and how much this affected me in the long run. It is one of those things you actually can't see until you try another angle.
Hilarious! I got that same revelation looking OUTSIDE Reason :lol: I was a Reason only user from the beginning but out of curiosity started looking at other DAWs a few years back.

Sure I found many interesting things but nothing that would make me switch my main DAW. Most importantly I discovered why I love Reason and the rack environment so much. All the hassle with a potential unstable and poorly integrated environment is not for me. Neither is constant crashes my thing. I cannot remember Reason crashing on me ever.

But hey we are all different.

I can certainly understand people who would rather invest in the VST version of a RE. In case you want to jump ship having all your investments in RE would be a waste.

It would never occur to me investing in a VST already available as a RE. I also doubt I will ever buy a VST, my money goes into RE and upgrading Reason :P
Last edited by Innerst on 15 Nov 2017, edited 3 times in total.

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