RRP automation janky in Cubase 14

[bjmatt]

I started using RRP in Cubase 14 lately and I noticed that the RRP UI is not following the automation curves smoothly, it jumps around, seems quite janky. The audio is fine fortunately, it's not a showstopper, but seems weird. I created a support ticket, but was wondering if anyone else noticed this. Created a few demonstration videos:

Automating Subtractor:

Comparing NI Driver and Sweeper at the same time. Also enabling record improves it a little:

Inserting RRP in Voltage Modular and automating through that seems smooth:

I'm on latest Windows 11, using an Nvidia card with the latest studio driver. Tried it with disabling OpenGL but it had no effect.

Turning off Cubase's ASIO guard or arming the track for recording/monitoring slightly improves it. My best guess is that while ASIO guard is active, Cubase sends update signals less frequent. The weird thing is that in Reaper the GUI updates smoothly, despite Reaper doing a similar pre-calculation like Cubase ASIO guard.

[motuscott]

Lurves me the adjective "janky".
Need to include it in more of my everyday conversation
OK, you may continue on...
Nothing to see here
Motuscott, purveyor of wordthings

[Pepin]

Try disabling vsync for Cubase from the nvidia control panel. I had a lot of graphical issues with RRP until I did that.

[bjmatt]

Thank you very much Pepin! Unfortunately it didn't help, but I continued debugging and I guess I found either a bug or somethings wrong with my Cubase or Reason install.

I had a hunch, that this is not a graphic or driver issue, but seemed more like the poor parameters are controlled by multiple things. I checked the new modulators introduced in Cubase 14 and I guess I found the issue.

When I added a new modulator to an empty RRP instrument and tried to select a modulation target it showed several Subtractor parameters:

https://ibb.co/Y4thP4hQ

As you can see, the rack is empty, but still reporting that it has a Subtractor. The Cubase project is new, clean.

And then if I add a new Polytone to the previously empty rack, it will show mixed Subtractor and Polytone parameters:

https://ibb.co/SD5T0jg5

Same happens with the RRP audio effect version, but instead of a Subtractor, it shows parameters of a non-existing Ozone Maximizer:

https://ibb.co/xtw5kP20

I wrote to support, I'm curios if this is a real bug, or should I try to reinstall Cubase or Reason.

[bjmatt]

Tried with other VSTs, but it's only happening with Reason. For example for Repro it only shows the currently existing parameters:

https://ibb.co/hxbp7dZM

[bjmatt]

I tried to map one of the non-existing Subtractor parameters as the modulation target, and the LFO modulated an existing Europa parameter:

[Pepin]

Hmm, something is definitely going wrong there. I've never seen anything other than the generic Param #### listed for a new instance.
I don't use RRP very often though, so it's possible I just haven't triggered the bug myself.

Maybe it's obvious, but you've restarted your computer? I'm just wondering if a previous RRP instance didn't clean itself up properly.
My only other guess is maybe you've accidentally saved a default preset in Cubase. If you click the arrow in the top right of the plugin window, there's a "Default Preset" menu where you can reset the default preset if it's been changed.

Do those incorrect parameters show up in Reaper?

[bjmatt]

Sure, I'm experiencing this for days, did multiple restarts. Thanks for the default preset tip, but no, I didn't change the default yet, the reset option is greyed out in the plugin menu.

Just want to note again, that this happens only with the new modulator parameters, the automation lane dropdowns are fine, they do show the generic Param list until the rack is populated.

And of course I can imagine that this is a Cubase bug.

[bjmatt]

"Do those incorrect parameters show up in Reaper?"

Nope, tested in Reaper, Bitwig, FL Studio, it's working fine everywhere. I'm sensing a Cubase reinstall soon

[Pepin]

In that case, you're right it's probably a Cubase bug.
I've used the new modulators with RRP a bit when they first came out and didn't notice this. But I've only ever used them from the "lower zone," not the top of the plugin window. No idea if that makes a difference. I haven't yet used them extensively on a real project.

[bjmatt]

Uninstalled it, removed as much settings from ProgramData, home\Documents, etc I could, reinstalled and the zombie Subtractor parameters are still there. I guess I take a little break, and try to reinstall it again, maybe Reason too. Thanks a lot for the tips again!

[bjmatt]

Unfortunately reinstalling Reason didn't help either.

[bjmatt]

Seems like I have found the root cause. Did some more cleanup in my user home folder and found a folder called VST XMLs with 2 entries, one for RRP Instr and the other for the Effect. They did contain the Subtractor and Ozone parameters uncommented.

https://ibb.co/N6Y1ww6L

I moved them to another drive and now the zombie parameters are gone from the modulation targets and the automation is more smooth. It's still a little janky compared to other plugins and disabling ASIO guard improves is, but since the audio is fine, it's just a minor cosmetic thing.

I have no idea how the XML files were created, I don't remember setting up quick controls for Subtractor, especially not for Ozone, wouldn't think of automating a mastering plugin realtime. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[chimp_spanner]

Thanks for sharing the solution! And glad you were able to figure it out. So was it a Cubase issue in the end vs Reason?

[bjmatt]

I guess both and there are more underlying causes.

One was this parameter mismatch which caused the controls to jump all over the places even without enabling any Cubase modulations. Maybe the automation was conflicting with the default parameter values and sometimes the latter won.

The other is that the RRP UI is less frequently updating than other VSTs in Cubase. I will try again disabling the vsync for the GPU as Pepin suggested, but it didn't seem to have any visible effect. Also in other DAWs it's buttery smooth, so maybe this is also on Steinberg.

This is what it looks like currently:

It's much better, less erratic, but not as smooth as Driver for example. It's fine, not complaining, just an observation.

I will update this post if I manage to improve it with the GPU/Windows settings. Wanted to add SOLVED to the thread title, but I don't seem to have edit rights. Mods please feel free to add it!

[bjmatt]

In Bitwig it's perfectly fine, so I probably have to ask Steinberg about it.

[bjmatt]

So, the xmls returned and it's janky again, even after deleting them. I will ask Steinberg what's happening.

[bjmatt]

Just did a fresh Windows 11 install with nothing else then Cubase 14 and Reason 13 and it's the same:

And although the Retrologue automation is better, it doesn't look great either.

I noticed the the Windows setup automatically installed the NVidia driver and control panel, I might try to uninstall it, or try tweaking it again, because I can't think of anything else at this point.

I know it's a minor thing, but find interesting that I don't see others reporting this. Cubase 14, Windows 11, NVidia cards/drivers are quite mainstream choices I guess.

Anyway, I can't be sure, but I think it's Reasonable (pun intended) to think, that it's a Cubase issue. It's working fine in Bitwig, Reaper and FLStudio with the same OS, GPU, drivers.

[bjmatt]

Just tested it with the clean install and the CPU's Intel UHD 770 GPU, it's the very same. Also tested with a 4k TV with multiple resolutions and refresh rates, same. Tested again with V-Sync off, setting performance to the max, nada. Guess I've got a dedicated Cubase installer with a bad mojo.

[bjmatt]

It's probably very boring by now, sorry, but maybe useful for future reference. I did more testing, and managed to reproduce it with U-He Hive! Here comes the twist: only with the VST3 version. The VST2 version is working fine:

VST2 on the left, VST3 on the right. And I turn on and off the ASIO guard in Cubase, which when turned off completely fixes it for Hive.

I'm not sure if there is a conclusion to be drawn. Maybe some VST3 plugins update their UIs less often then VST2 plugins when ASIO guard is enabled.

[jam-s]

My conclusion from your experiments is: VST3 support in Cubase 14 is (still) buggy.

[bjmatt]

Yeah, it's quite ironic. What I discovered since then, is that all of the U-He VST3 plugins behave like this, the VST2 versions work well. Same goes for Voxengo LF Max Punch. I've got a response from our local reseller, forwarded my emails to Steinberg technicians, hope we are going to get some answers or confirmations.

[bjmatt]

Little update again. I got some help on the Steinberg forum, few others were able to reproduce this. It is a combination of the above mentioned plugins and buffer sizes above 1024 samples. (Mine was set to 256, but since I had ASIO guard turned on, Cubase used 1024 instead).

And the workaround is currently (besides the obvious to use lower buffer sizes or not activate ASIO guard) is to use the new ModScripter modulator to modulate the VST parameters and automate the ModScripter. So it's an indirect automation, but works well.

RRP

Hive

Steinberg has been notified, but it was not confirmed yet. I cannot judge if this is a Cubase bug or the plugins, but yeah, they do work flawlessly in Bitwig, FLStudio and Reaper.