Reason Rack Plugin Effects 64 sample latency

[spacepluk]

So the baseline latency of the RRP Effects is 64 samples, even for basic effects that don't require lookahead.
I would love to use Reason's effects in Ableton/Pro Tools but adding 64 samples of latency here and there, in send effects, etc. adds up pretty quickly. This is sadly a deal breaker for me and in practice I only use Reason's effects when using the Reason DAW.

Am I the only one that is bothered by this?

[Enlightenspeed]

This is the case for all effects plugins, and is the nature of DSP. It is not possible to apply any sort of effect without adding delay.

[Pepin]

This is the case for all effects plugins, and is the nature of DSP. It is not possible to apply any sort of effect without adding delay.

That's not true unless by "delay" you mean the latency resulting from the host's buffer. Most effects plugins do not introduce additional latency, which is what the OP is observing. It's only necessitated by certain algorithms (e.g. lookahead compression) and certain implementation decisions.

[PhillipOrdonez]

This is the case for all effects plugins, and is the nature of DSP. It is not possible to apply any sort of effect without adding delay.

That's not true unless by "delay" you mean the latency resulting from the host's buffer. Most effects plugins do not introduce additional latency, which is what the OP is observing. It's only necessitated by certain algorithms (e.g. lookahead compression) and certain implementation decisions.

Is that what op is observing though? Do you?

[Pepin]

That's not true unless by "delay" you mean the latency resulting from the host's buffer. Most effects plugins do not introduce additional latency, which is what the OP is observing. It's only necessitated by certain algorithms (e.g. lookahead compression) and certain implementation decisions.

Is that what op is observing though? Do you?

Yes, the RRP effect plugin reports 64 samples of latency even with no devices. It hasn't bothered me personally, but the OP is correct in their observations:

fxlatency.png (7.3 KiB) Viewed 4462 times

[PhillipOrdonez]

Is that what op is observing though? Do you?

Yes, the RRP effect plugin reports 64 samples of latency even with no devices. It hasn't bothered me personally, but the OP is correct in their observations:
fxlatency.png

Yeah. But that's not the question though. I'm taking about every additional instance adding up and stacking latency. Use that what you observe? Is that what op is observing?

[Pepin]

Yes, the RRP effect plugin reports 64 samples of latency even with no devices. It hasn't bothered me personally, but the OP is correct in their observations:
fxlatency.png

Yeah. But that's not the question though. I'm taking about every additional instance adding up and stacking latency. Use that what you observe? Is that what op is observing?

Yes, that's nothing mysterious or unique to RRP. Any plugin that reports latency will "stack" with others along the signal path. If you have several instances of RRP (or any plugin with latency) in sequence then each one will add to the overall latency.

fxlatency3.png (10.69 KiB) Viewed 4448 times

[PhillipOrdonez]

Awesome.

[spacepluk]

Thanks Pepin, that's exactly what I mean. The regular plugin doesn't have this problem, only the Effects version adds the additional latency.

But for the look of it, it seems I am indeed the only one that's bothered by it hehe

[PhillipOrdonez]

Does it stack if you have only one RRP FX plugin per track on several tracks?

[Pepin]

Does it stack if you have only one RRP FX plugin per track on several tracks?

No, overall compensated latency is based on the worst path through the system. The Delay Compensation section of the Reason manual has a good section explaining how this works (other DAWs will behave similarly):
https://docs.reasonstudios.com/reason13 ... ion#509909

[PhillipOrdonez]

Exactly. And that's what op was talking about. He mentioned multiple tracks adding up. Which is false. Nobody has a lot of RRP effect instances on the same track, they usually build chains within those so you can have a couple of those, max. Sounds like a smaller issue than you guys made it sound to begin with ‍♂️

[Pepin]

Exactly. And that's what op was talking about. He mentioned multiple tracks adding up. Which is false. Nobody has a lot of RRP effect instances on the same track, they usually build chains within those so you can have a couple of those, max. Sounds like a smaller issue than you guys made it sound to begin with ‍♂️

I don't know who "you guys" are. My exact words were "It hasn't bothered me personally."

The OP never claimed that every single instance adds to the total latency. They did not specify much about their exact use case, but I assume they already understand how plugin latency works and where it does/doesn't apply. You (not OP) are the one asking questions about how latency works. That's not what this topic was originally about.

For a basic effects chain, you only need one RRP instance. But there are situations where multiple instances will stack up. You might need to put a VST between two Reason effects or use RRP on a mix bus or on the master channel. I could see situations where you'd have 3-4 instances all contributing additional latency. If your buffer size is 256, then you've effectively doubled your latency before even adding other latent VSTs into the mix.

You've been asking a lot of questions, but are you even interested in the answers? It seems you're just hunting for a reason to minimize the OP's concerns. It's good this latency doesn't bother you (nor me), but the OP isn't "wrong" to be bothered by it either.

[PhillipOrdonez]

Sounds like we are understanding op the words OP wrote in very different ways.

He mentioned this, which sounds like several tracks:

"I would love to use Reason's effects in Ableton/Pro Tools but adding 64 samples of latency here and there, in send effects, etc. adds up pretty quickly. "

This supposed deal breaker doesn't really exist because like stated, one doesn't really add more than a couple per track (sure i know that you sometimes want a VST in between so you need a couple) and that would be 128? Say you use three in a rare case... Most cases one uses only one instance... I'm asking questions so things are clear for everyone, not because i don't know anything about the topic (yes it doesn't bother me. I know how to work) but to clarify, as maybe OP thinks every instance in a project is adding up, or perhaps someone else less experienced reading this will get out with the wrong impression and write off the software based on a false impression. But now we are clear, so things are good and dandy

[Dave Beep]

Why would you stack RRP Effect rack plugins, rather than have one RRP on the channel with whatever devices you need in the rack
?

[Pepin]

Why would you stack RRP Effect rack plugins, rather than have one RRP on the channel with whatever devices you need in the rack
?

You wouldn't use multiple for a simple chain of Reason effects. Imagine using RRP on an instrument that's bussed to an aux channel with its own RRP while also using RRP on the master channel. Those would stack up. Same if you needed to use a VST effect between Reason effects.

I don't think it's a huge issue, but it's not an unrealistic situation depending on how much you use RRP.

[spacepluk]

If you use other effects that aren't Reason's in your chain it's pretty easy to end up with more than one instance in the same track, and if you also send that track to an Aux that has one or more reason plugins those also add up.

Pepin has already explained more clearly than I could what the problem is. Of course you can work around it if you really want to. But I find a 64 sample baseline unacceptable for any effect plugin that isn't doing lookahead... so I just avoid the RRPFX to keep things simple.

If they ever fix this I'll use it a whole lot more, and I'll be much more inclined to buy more RE effects.

[spacepluk]

Also I usually have my audio buffer set to 32 samples (in other DAWS), so maybe that helps understand why it's such a big issue for me.

And BTW Reason is the the only DAW I use that doesn't let me go under 64 samples, so that's another one I would like to see fixed

[Enlightenspeed]

Also I usually have my audio buffer set to 32 samples (in other DAWS), so maybe that helps understand why it's such a big issue for me.

And BTW Reason is the the only DAW I use that doesn't let me go under 64 samples, so that's another one I would like to see fixed

Now that I see what the actual problem is, I can guarantee you that this won't change, at least not easily, as it would mess up the spec of many existing plugins which were built with the 64 sample buffer size as a constant, so it could potentially mess up a lot of the maths internally in the plugin; unlike VST3 you don't need to have handling code for different sizes, which makes life a little easier/different.

The best solution, and one that is long overdue anyway, is to allow the usage of VST plugins in the RRP system.

Cheers,
B

[jlgrimes]

So the baseline latency of the RRP Effects is 64 samples, even for basic effects that don't require lookahead.
I would love to use Reason's effects in Ableton/Pro Tools but adding 64 samples of latency here and there, in send effects, etc. adds up pretty quickly. This is sadly a deal breaker for me and in practice I only use Reason's effects when using the Reason DAW.

Am I the only one that is bothered by this?

I believe this is a part of Reason's CV system.

64 samples itself isn't that noticeable. The main thing to watch out for is adding any devices that will (add extra latency in addition to the 64 samples).

Most stock Reason devices don't add anything extra but a few such as Neptune, does. Someone created a list of them.

This really is also only an issue for Live plugin effect processing (which would be a big issue for tasks such as Performing live, or monitoring effects in realtime while recording audio). So if you are just using Reason for mixing tasks, this probably would have no effect on anything.

Basically any effects with lookahead will add extra latency. I'd also watch out for any effects with an oversampling or high quality mode (although many of these effects won't add any latency). But probably 90% of Reasons devices add no extra latency.

[spacepluk]

Well, the non-effects version of the plugin doesn't have this problem so I think it should be possible to fix it.

[Enlightenspeed]

Well, the non-effects version of the plugin doesn't have this problem so I think it should be possible to fix it.

The default delay maybe removable, but not the window size, that can't change, at least not easily.

[chimp_spanner]

I was not aware that the RRP effect plugin stacked latency with additional instances. That's...not good. I've been wondering why my projects are feeling more and more laggy as they get bigger, despite me not using any lookahead or FFT or anything like that. Luckily I'm about 9 toes in to Logic Pro and its built in effects (plus everything I have in K14 CE) are more than enough. Just to clarify, I can still use the RRP instrument without this happening right? I'd at least like to use those still. But I will not be using RRP effect any more if this is the case.

[spacepluk]

yeah! the instrument plugin only adds latency when it should.

[chimp_spanner]

I'll have to do some tests with this to see if Logic's audio monitoring/low latency mode is enough to compensate, and how much it affects MIDI input when recording drums etc.