Reason Rack plugin lackluster MIDI features

This forum is for discussing the Reason Rack Plugin, the version of the Reason rack that runs as a VST3, AU, AAX in other DAWs.
jlgrimes
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Joined: 06 Jun 2017

Post 08 Dec 2019

NostraDAWmus wrote:
07 Dec 2019
I cannot believe all talk about MIDI-Out ...
What´s up w/ MIDI-In ?

Noone interested in multiple MIDI - In ports/ channels ?

What´s such rack for ?
Just only cascading RSN devices making it ONE multi-instrument using a Combinator ?

What´s up when I want p.ex. several of Bitley´s "WBF R2(X)" combinator instruments in just only ONE RSN VST rack,- on individual MIDI channels, w/ different controllers assigned and on individual tracks in p.ex. Reaper (v6.0) ???
Impossible !
And why in the world doesn´t even THOR respond to MIDI Prg Changes in the rack, but does in (standalone) RSN 11 ???

Compare to a NI Kontakt rack hosting "MULTI" = 16 individual MIDI channels w/ 16 instruments loaded before using a new instance.

What did they smoke in Reason Studios when releasing this piece of shit VST3 rack ?
Who needs a rack handling just only 1 MIDI Input channel,- in hardware or software ?

I´m happy I didn´t pay for that crap because I upgraded to Reason 10 late enough and got that rack for free.
Nonetheless and even for free,- for me, the rack is useless.
Reason 10.x w/ Rewire is still better !

P.

Im guessing they are trying to overcome some limitations in Reasons existing spec. Reason standalone doesnt support Multiple midi channels on VSTs as well. This probably has alot to do with no supporting it in the Rack plugin.

Im guessing if Props ever decides to support it in the standalone, we would also get it in the Plugin.

I would imagine this stems from Reason having alot of old code in it that worked well almost 20 years ago when it had alot more limited functionality and people were just happy they were getting to use good quality instruments on a minimally specd machine. Situation is alot different now as there are more DAWS and apps that utilize these features.


Along with Graphics and the midi Spec, Im guessing they have to modify alot of old code. They already made improvements in some areas namely buffering performance and such but Reason ultimately probably needs to be rewritten from the ground up.

Ad0
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Post 08 Dec 2019

I'd like to see an official statement on what's in the pipeline

NostraDAWmus
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Post 08 Dec 2019

jlgrimes wrote:
08 Dec 2019

Reason standalone doesnt support Multiple midi channels on VSTs as well. This probably has alot to do with no supporting it in the Rack plugin.
I never tried w/ VSTis up to now,- but at least for the Reason devices, there´s the "Advanced MIDI" hardware interface where you´re able to adress 4 MIDI input ports, 16 individual channels each, to individual tracks controlling whatever devices in the Reason rack,- no ?

So, at least I expected to get the same functionality in the VST3 rack for REASON devices as well, especially because other VST-hosts DO work w/ MIDI- ports and MIDI- channels.

I´d be somewhat satisfied w/ such solution because the main target of the RSN VST rack was using Reason devices in other DAWs !
When that works well, MIDI-Out for the RSN VST rack would be essential.
Using VST inside the RSN VST rack is another step up then.
jlgrimes wrote:
08 Dec 2019
Im guessing if Props ever decides to support it in the standalone, we would also get it in the Plugin.
Well, see above ...
jlgrimes wrote:
08 Dec 2019
I would imagine this stems from Reason having alot of old code in it that worked well almost 20 years ago when it had alot more limited functionality and people were just happy they were getting to use good quality instruments on a minimally specd machine. Situation is alot different now as there are more DAWS and apps that utilize these features.
Yes, there´s always something but that should not be a paying customers problem.
When they ditch Rewire and replace it w/ a VST3 rack device,- we can expect to get the same or even more advanced (because it´s a upgrade !) functionality we already got from Reason when using Rewire to trigger and control REASON devices and when using any other VST host.

I have the impression they didn´t even think about that.

For coders, it might be a big technical step forward presenting a Reason VST rack,- but it isn´t for the user when functionality is reduced and the whole thing is a step back.

I really think it´s a trivial demand putting several DSP devices in a virtual rack and trigger/control each device by MIDI info transmitted from different MIDI ports/tracks/channels.
That´s how we worked in studios for decades,- hardware and software.

It might be some lifestyle kind of thing, but using just only a laptop (computer) w/ a tiny 2 octave keyspan "surface" controller and just only Reason is,- at least for me, amateurish and probably good enough for the average EDM bedroom producer,- but not for the pros doing all kind of stuff.
The Reason sequencer lacks tons of features other DAWs deliver anyway,- I´m fine w/ that because Reason, for me, is some kind of synth, ROMpler, processor, offering CV patchability and MIDI as also audio out.
That´s great and there are sounds I only get out from Reason that way,- but breaking interface-connectivity by introducing a device which out of the box is unable replacing Rewire is a cheek !
jlgrimes wrote:
08 Dec 2019
Along with Graphics and the midi Spec, Im guessing they have to modify alot of old code.
Can be or not.
Who says old code is bad and the culprit ?

There´s more in the way for sure.
Different manufacturer´s VST`compatible DAW sequencer applications also behave different.
It might be hard to get it right for everyone.
Finding the common denominator to get the best out of it regardless of which VST compatible DAW application is in use is probably some balancing act old props avoided like plague.
Maybe they knew why ...
jlgrimes wrote:
08 Dec 2019

They already made improvements in some areas namely buffering performance and such but Reason ultimately probably needs to be rewritten from the ground up.
I grow old w/ this and until it´s rewritten, I might be retired already.
We users don´t have to understand the problems manufactuirers have,- THEY have to come up w/ clever solutions when introducing upgrades we have to pay for.
The reality is we aren´t beta testers paying for THEIR progressing.

We are the customers, paying for and using products for OUR progressing.
Some (if not lots) of us make their living w/ music, are in biz for decades and feed families.
It´s not correct let ´em pay and beg for patience once they found out all that s##t not working as expected.

Using RSN 10.x and Rewire is also not o.k. when someone paid for more feature updates and new devices in v11 and cannot use ´em in v11 Reason VST3 rack when working w/ other DAW than Reason itself.

That RSN VST rack was and is simply not ready for release and just only an advertising and marketing argument to buy Reason 11 upgrade, financiating further development.
In fact,- it´s swindle for the time being.

P.

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Iapetus 9
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Post 09 Dec 2019

Reason is my DAW of choice, but this is the main reason why I didn't upgrade. I mean, I guess it's fun to have the rack in another DAW, but the lack of midi features really hinder it. Perhaps they'll update it and people will stop complaining. Either way, I'm good to go.
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jlgrimes
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Post 09 Dec 2019

NostraDAWmus wrote:
08 Dec 2019
jlgrimes wrote:
08 Dec 2019

Reason standalone doesnt support Multiple midi channels on VSTs as well. This probably has alot to do with no supporting it in the Rack plugin.
I never tried w/ VSTis up to now,- but at least for the Reason devices, there´s the "Advanced MIDI" hardware interface where you´re able to adress 4 MIDI input ports, 16 individual channels each, to individual tracks controlling whatever devices in the Reason rack,- no ?

So, at least I expected to get the same functionality in the VST3 rack for REASON devices as well, especially because other VST-hosts DO work w/ MIDI- ports and MIDI- channels.

I´d be somewhat satisfied w/ such solution because the main target of the RSN VST rack was using Reason devices in other DAWs !
When that works well, MIDI-Out for the RSN VST rack would be essential.
Using VST inside the RSN VST rack is another step up then.
jlgrimes wrote:
08 Dec 2019
Im guessing if Props ever decides to support it in the standalone, we would also get it in the Plugin.
Well, see above ...
jlgrimes wrote:
08 Dec 2019
I would imagine this stems from Reason having alot of old code in it that worked well almost 20 years ago when it had alot more limited functionality and people were just happy they were getting to use good quality instruments on a minimally specd machine. Situation is alot different now as there are more DAWS and apps that utilize these features.
Yes, there´s always something but that should not be a paying customers problem.
When they ditch Rewire and replace it w/ a VST3 rack device,- we can expect to get the same or even more advanced (because it´s a upgrade !) functionality we already got from Reason when using Rewire to trigger and control REASON devices and when using any other VST host.

I have the impression they didn´t even think about that.

For coders, it might be a big technical step forward presenting a Reason VST rack,- but it isn´t for the user when functionality is reduced and the whole thing is a step back.

I really think it´s a trivial demand putting several DSP devices in a virtual rack and trigger/control each device by MIDI info transmitted from different MIDI ports/tracks/channels.
That´s how we worked in studios for decades,- hardware and software.

It might be some lifestyle kind of thing, but using just only a laptop (computer) w/ a tiny 2 octave keyspan "surface" controller and just only Reason is,- at least for me, amateurish and probably good enough for the average EDM bedroom producer,- but not for the pros doing all kind of stuff.
The Reason sequencer lacks tons of features other DAWs deliver anyway,- I´m fine w/ that because Reason, for me, is some kind of synth, ROMpler, processor, offering CV patchability and MIDI as also audio out.
That´s great and there are sounds I only get out from Reason that way,- but breaking interface-connectivity by introducing a device which out of the box is unable replacing Rewire is a cheek !
jlgrimes wrote:
08 Dec 2019
Along with Graphics and the midi Spec, Im guessing they have to modify alot of old code.
Can be or not.
Who says old code is bad and the culprit ?

There´s more in the way for sure.
Different manufacturer´s VST`compatible DAW sequencer applications also behave different.
It might be hard to get it right for everyone.
Finding the common denominator to get the best out of it regardless of which VST compatible DAW application is in use is probably some balancing act old props avoided like plague.
Maybe they knew why ...
jlgrimes wrote:
08 Dec 2019

They already made improvements in some areas namely buffering performance and such but Reason ultimately probably needs to be rewritten from the ground up.
I grow old w/ this and until it´s rewritten, I might be retired already.
We users don´t have to understand the problems manufactuirers have,- THEY have to come up w/ clever solutions when introducing upgrades we have to pay for.
The reality is we aren´t beta testers paying for THEIR progressing.

We are the customers, paying for and using products for OUR progressing.
Some (if not lots) of us make their living w/ music, are in biz for decades and feed families.
It´s not correct let ´em pay and beg for patience once they found out all that s##t not working as expected.

Using RSN 10.x and Rewire is also not o.k. when someone paid for more feature updates and new devices in v11 and cannot use ´em in v11 Reason VST3 rack when working w/ other DAW than Reason itself.

That RSN VST rack was and is simply not ready for release and just only an advertising and marketing argument to buy Reason 11 upgrade, financiating further development.
In fact,- it´s swindle for the time being.

P.
I totally agree that they shouldn't have killed Rewire. (At least not before making sure the Rack could handle everything or a good portion of what Rewire was doing.)

The Rack has a few limitations in addition to what you already mentioned.


Reason is in a weird place now, DAW, Plugin and it is in direct competition with alot of companies.

That said I'm still making great use of the devices but the current implementation limits it. Being able to drag midi and audio even to host would have been a great feature alone.


I'm guessing though some of these features will be more sooner than later as Reason updates are a bit faster than usual and I know that some of those features especially drag and drop of midi would create some interesting uses of the Rack plugin as it should be able to sequence external devices with the players at least and it could be used as an instant midi pattern generator with drag and drop.


The one thing I do like with the Rack though is how easy it is to layer devices without a combinator.

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Lempface
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Post 10 Dec 2019

It's not a swindle, yes its missing some of the MIDI features I'd REALLY like to use, but c'mon now...

There are demos and feature lists and product reviews, it's clear what it doesn't do and they don't advertise that it does something it doesn't...
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Boombastix
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Post 10 Dec 2019

Lempface wrote:
10 Dec 2019
It's not a swindle, yes its missing some of the MIDI features I'd REALLY like to use, but c'mon now...

There are demos and feature lists and product reviews, it's clear what it doesn't do and they don't advertise that it does something it doesn't...
Well, they still talk about opening ANY Combinator in the Rack Plugin, that is simply not true. You cannot open up Combinators you made with VSTs inside. It is a false claim, but I sure hope they will fix it. The No 1 reason I haven't updated to R11.
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Ad0
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Post 11 Dec 2019

Boombastix wrote:
10 Dec 2019
Well, they still talk about opening ANY Combinator in the Rack Plugin, that is simply not true. You cannot open up Combinators you made with VSTs inside. It is a false claim, but I sure hope they will fix it. The No 1 reason I haven't updated to R11.
Since VST support was launched, VSTs are a part of my chains and combinators. All these are useless in the rack plugin. Also #1 or #2 reason why I don't upgrade.

Again, tons and tons of plugins already host plugins. I suspect they have an architectural problem. Also - REs are plugins.
If they are afraid of "plugin inception" of their own rack plugin, there are a million ways to detect this in code. Or even easier: Allow it, but don't officially support it.

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Boombastix
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Post 11 Dec 2019

Ad0 wrote:
11 Dec 2019
Boombastix wrote:
10 Dec 2019
Well, they still talk about opening ANY Combinator in the Rack Plugin, that is simply not true. You cannot open up Combinators you made with VSTs inside. It is a false claim, but I sure hope they will fix it. The No 1 reason I haven't updated to R11.
Since VST support was launched, VSTs are a part of my chains and combinators. All these are useless in the rack plugin. Also #1 or #2 reason why I don't upgrade.

Again, tons and tons of plugins already host plugins. I suspect they have an architectural problem. Also - REs are plugins.
If they are afraid of "plugin inception" of their own rack plugin, there are a million ways to detect this in code. Or even easier: Allow it, but don't officially support it.
I doubt there is a technical problem. 'Kids' make VST hosts and give them away for free. The existing Rack VST holder is already some RE of sort. I think it is just some stubbornness or idiosyncrasy behavior that nobody outside of their office can phantom. Combine that with a total lack of feature discussions/surveys with the user community (like Cubase, Studio One, etc, do) and I also suspect very little Reason use by themselves beside some tinkering/noodling, then yeah, they could not envision a need for VSTs or Midi in the Rack Plugin. Like i said when R11 dropped, if they had a focus group for this, they should be fired/replaced with a group that has some vision and ideas and desire to get basic/obvious features included. I really hope they step up the game, and soon... It is obvious it is needed, we want it, and we will pay for it.

But no point in upgrading for me either right now, so I spent close to $900 bucks this Black Friday, but $0 in the Reason shop. They need to figure this out, for their own sake.
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Ad0
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Post 11 Dec 2019

Boombastix wrote:
11 Dec 2019
I doubt there is a technical problem. 'Kids' make VST hosts and give them away for free. The existing Rack VST holder is already some RE of sort.
Yeah well. But kids don't make huge complex apps either. My suspicion is still that the VST hosting has elements outside the container portion that's used as a plugin.
Boombastix wrote:
11 Dec 2019
I think it is just some stubbornness or idiosyncrasy behavior that nobody outside of their office can phantom. Combine that with a total lack of feature discussions/surveys with the user community (like Cubase, Studio One, etc, do) and I also suspect very little Reason use by themselves beside some tinkering/noodling, then yeah, they could not envision a need for VSTs or Midi in the Rack Plugin. Like i said when R11 dropped, if they had a focus group for this, they should be fired/replaced with a group that has some vision and ideas and desire to get basic/obvious features included. I really hope they step up the game, and soon... It is obvious it is needed, we want it, and we will pay for it.

But no point in upgrading for me either right now, so I spent close to $900 bucks this Black Friday, but $0 in the Reason shop. They need to figure this out, for their own sake.
Yeah that might also be correct, or a combination.

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Boombastix
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Post 11 Dec 2019

Ad0 wrote:
11 Dec 2019
Boombastix wrote:
11 Dec 2019
I doubt there is a technical problem. 'Kids' make VST hosts and give them away for free. The existing Rack VST holder is already some RE of sort.
Yeah well. But kids don't make huge complex apps either. My suspicion is still that the VST hosting has elements outside the container portion that's used as a plugin.
It is well know the full Reason VST device was coded several years before they released it. The guy who coded Malstrom did it, he is now Sonic Charge. My guess is it is very much a separate device and they could just release it as any other Reason Rack device.

The only comment on it from RS themselves that I have seen was "The Rack Plugin is not a VST host". I sent a friendly request to RS support shortly after R11 was released, asking for this. Never heard back, did not get a confirmation back , or "thanks for the request", just crickets... The way they treat this issue with silence and avoidance is pretty frustrating. There must have been dozens of requests of this on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram etc by now. I have seen plenty of them, but in return, just crickets. It is pretty bad to be honest.
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Ad0
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Post 11 Dec 2019

Boombastix wrote:
11 Dec 2019
It is well know the full Reason VST device was coded several years before they released it. The guy who coded Malstrom did it, he is now Sonic Charge. My guess is it is very much a separate device and they could just release it as any other Reason Rack device.
They had to redo everything through the whole app that took months. Reason 10.3 -> 10.4. Which tells me stuff like VST thread scheduling and whatnot might have a different path and reside outside the layer that's included in the plugin.
Boombastix wrote:
11 Dec 2019
The only comment on it from RS themselves that I have seen was "The Rack Plugin is not a VST host". I sent a friendly request to RS support shortly after R11 was released, asking for this. Never heard back, did not get a confirmation back , or "thanks for the request", just crickets... The way they treat this issue with silence and avoidance is pretty frustrating. There must have been dozens of requests of this on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram etc by now. I have seen plenty of them, but in return, just crickets. It is pretty bad to be honest.
I did it a couple of times, but crickets as well. Do they want to add it but technically can't ATM, or do they refuse to add it? I would love a statement so I can make a decision.

Ad0
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Post 12 Dec 2019

An update from KVR:

https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopi ... 7#p7604307
In general, I'm careful about confirming something's coming and when since things can always change and I don't want to disappoint anyone. But everything on your list except VST hosting inside the plugin is high up in priority, I'd say MIDI out is closest.

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MattiasHG
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Post 13 Dec 2019

I just saw something related to this on Instagram stories / Facebook stories... ;)

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Post 13 Dec 2019

MattiasHG wrote:
13 Dec 2019
I just saw something related to this on Instagram stories / Facebook stories... ;)
Very good! :)

Image

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MattiasHG
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Post 13 Dec 2019

For the record, using the External MIDI Instrument is entirely placeholder for this alpha prototype. But it's SUPER FUN. ;)

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Oquasec
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Post 13 Dec 2019

Oh I thought we were gonna like connect those to empty rpg-8s with loop midi on in the plugin.
If this plugin instead acts a different way using the host as loopmidi (technically) that is very interesting.
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Post 13 Dec 2019

MattiasHG wrote:
13 Dec 2019
For the record, using the External MIDI Instrument is entirely placeholder for this alpha prototype. But it's SUPER FUN. ;)
That's great to hear!

Let's hope the pattern export for REX comes soon as well! I never use "vanilla" REX loops. It can be worked around with going into reason DAW, export MIDI, then import, but it's very lumpy. :)

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Post 13 Dec 2019

Sounds like good news are on the way?! 🕺

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EnochLight
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Post 13 Dec 2019

MattiasHG wrote:
13 Dec 2019
For the record, using the External MIDI Instrument is entirely placeholder for this alpha prototype. But it's SUPER FUN. ;)
Ah, good to know! ;)
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dezma
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Post 13 Dec 2019

Good.

Now, if they want to overdeliver we could dream of drag and drop functionality so we could drag a clip to a pattern lane in our DAW.

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Boombastix
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Post 13 Dec 2019

MattiasHG wrote:
13 Dec 2019
I just saw something related to this on Instagram stories / Facebook stories... ;)
That's great with the midi. But is there a technical issue preventing you to enable the VST RE thingy in the Rack Plugin so we can use VSTs just like we can when we put them into Combinators?

From what I have seen most people mix RE and VSTs inside the Combinator, but then all that work is useless when it comes to the Rack Plugin. If we can get VSTs inside the Rack Plugin it makes sense to continue to work in Reason DAW (and buy future DAW upgrades), but if VSTs will never be enabled in the Rack Plugin, you force the current Reason user base towards choosing Reason DAW OR Rack Plugin. If I decide, OK I'll focus on my Cubase Pro and Rack Plugin, then it makes no sense for me to continue with Reason DAW and make Combinators and sound design by mixing RE and VSTs, so I'll be forced to drop Reason DAW, and hey, I will no longer feel a need buy Reason DAW upgrades, and probably not buy many REs either as I distance myself from the whole Reason echo system.

It seems you are loosing a big existing user base this way that is part of your existing cash cow group. I'm sure you new CEO coming from Ericsson know well about the cash cow importance (and you too I assume), so why force the cash cow users to make a choice, many will leave for sure. Certainly you get plenty of sales now with the Rack Plugin, but that is from new users who will have no need to upgrade to R12, R13 and so on, they will unlikely leave Studio One/Ableton/Cubase for Reason DAW, they just bought it to get the Rack Plugin.

So, I am sure you can see the business potential here for next year and so on, and the importance of retaining your cash cow user base. Sooo many Reason DAW users do actually have another DAW already - but from comments I have seen I'm not the only one who feel I am being forced to make a choice of DAW, it is a junction point.

We sound design by combining the best of RE and VSTs, so again, I am forced to do it my other DAW now, since I will track vocals there and NEED to be able to adjust sound/mix etc.
If you add the VST thing to the Rack Plugin, the Rack Plugin do not need a whole lot of further development and you can focus on the DAW, but avoiding the Rack Plugin VST issue, how much of your cash cow user base are you willing to give up? 30% maybe, that is a huge amount of revenue drop when R12 - R13 drops. Think about life after Christmas, this is good feature to bring to the Rack plugin, for the users and for your company.

I know, tough choices, but I have also been a Global Product Manager for a large corporation, responsible for a 60 million USD budget. From my outside view, this is a good decision to make.
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hurricane
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Post 13 Dec 2019

dezma wrote:
13 Dec 2019
Good.

Now, if they want to overdeliver we could dream of drag and drop functionality so we could drag a clip to a pattern lane in our DAW.
That would be great, but they NEVER over-deliver.
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dezma
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Post 13 Dec 2019

hurricane wrote:
13 Dec 2019
dezma wrote:
13 Dec 2019
Good.

Now, if they want to overdeliver we could dream of drag and drop functionality so we could drag a clip to a pattern lane in our DAW.
That would be great, but they NEVER over-deliver.
Hence the usage of dream :)

I know it's not going to happen but well midi out for live recording is better than nothing and my use case changed from using reason as daw to reason as plugin so this is good news for us - yet should have been there from the start

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stratatonic
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Post 13 Dec 2019

MattiasHG wrote:
13 Dec 2019
For the record, using the External MIDI Instrument is entirely placeholder for this alpha prototype. But it's SUPER FUN. ;)
Hi Mattias. I haven't tried out the R11 demo yet , but would I be correct in assuming that "alpha" is a very early stage thing, and means you're still at least a half year away from releasing this?
Also, when you do release, would VST and AU MIDI Out happen at the same time?
AND...clarification on the quote below...I thought copy pattern for REX was already possible with the plugin? Looks like I'm misinformed. Would the MIDI Out allow that kind of thing? Thanks. :)
Ad0 wrote:
13 Dec 2019
Let's hope the pattern export for REX comes soon as well! I never use "vanilla" REX loops. It can be worked around with going into reason DAW, export MIDI, then import, but it's very lumpy. :)

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