Future of the SDK

This forum is for developers of Rack Extensions to discuss the RE SDK, share code, and offer tips to other developers.
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turn2on
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Post 10 Sep 2021

I can't completely agree with this. Scripting allows you to set flexibility and variability, randomization.. Scripting helps to make fine control. But yes, it is limited if compare to c++ free play.
You must start to think about how to realize what you need. Ideas and only after - realisation.
I know many things that are limited with GE, but in years of work, GE has big fixes and improvements, which helps to have today bigger possibilities. And yes.. it's Beta!
Some devs, that talk about GE with skepticism, talking about public dev beta. They do not have the last versions and just can't talk about it in actual view with a full understanding it.
I don't really like skepticism about GE, and joy about C2, when the combinator is really limited
Last edited by turn2on on 14 Sep 2021, edited 1 time in total.

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selig
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Post 10 Sep 2021

drno wrote:
10 Sep 2021
selig wrote:
09 Sep 2021
...For me the fun part is the overall routing, especially if it concerns logic and difficult issues to solve. There are many things I do that would never work with Gorillia Engine, such as developing the continuous slope, asymmetric EQ curves, or harmonic control in ColoringEQ, the logic for how Leveler works, the Pan laws in Gain, or most of the DeEsser (and certainly a good bit of my new RE)...
Yes Selig, what you say is very interesting too and there is a great field of research in it, and the best thing is when you start to compare analog equipment and you see the existing non-linearities in the equipment as the parameters change and how it affects the signal frequencies. Implementing that kind of thing is a lot of fun too.
That is why I say that GE / IDT does not allow you such fine control as directly interacting with the SDK, at least until now.
That said, there are STILL so many things the RE SDK won’t let you do, let alone GE and C2!
Selig Audio, LLC

Proboscis
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Post 10 Sep 2021

New in Reason 12.5 - Export C2 patches to Rack Extension format.

Upload to store.

Get rich, or die tryin'.

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Enlightenspeed
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Post 13 Sep 2021

turn2on wrote:
10 Sep 2021
Hi, GE is coming from the IDT. IDT was been a sample-based engine.
When gorilla coming to first steps, I'm ws been one of the first who come in it.
And many thing that today already in GE, is also few developers wish lists, for
a) their personal projects
b) content and powerful of GE

GE is more about scripting. Its a main idea. Its not just set of FX modules and sample-utilities.
The core - is script files.

About half year or near to year at the beta, we have a long talks about start to using GE as FX creator. And yes. Our devices was been first in this way.
Some FXs coming when few devs (me too) to have... not only for current projects, but also for have them to make basic music theory tricks.
GE not limited by new and new new FXs, routings, scripting updates, core updates...
Scripting and modules tricks of very low basic functionals, helps to create really powerful ideas.
First problem when we ask about FX-processing builds, without sample-based instruments building, was been "few FXs that can be used by developers = the same effects". But the ago after that - this concept as been broken, because adding something more to engine, adds new possibilities to work with FXs at fundamental level.. so many of the FXs, used today as utilities for something new.
Scripting changes also adds new and new possibilities.

So, I can understand only Reason SDK devs, that GE not flexible for some needs.. But can't understand users and devs, that touch GE "as is as"...
GE include basic modules. Big part of this modules was been created by UJAM from the developers ideas, needs and toughs about their own upcoming projects and future of the engine..

So, I'm loving GE as it changed and how UJAM work with beta users, but it still on the beta and NDA.
I'm waiting as many of other devs, the main public release. Its going to the real boom!

Combinator 2.0 - very cool project. But it is very very limited in possibilities. And some very basic moments not possible with C2. So, C2 is more constructor for users.
GE - is a constructor based on the scripting. And for creating GE projects as RE, you also need to work with Reason SDK too.

C2 - is a easy way to build some fundamental things with possibilities of Reason rack.
GE - is more like for a start developers.
I also have friends who build their first projects years ago, and they nothing to know about Reason SDK, IDT..
But if interest is deeper, you of course can try to make something own.

I repeat, now possible to use GE as FX devices, and Helpers at output - is my initiative to include this on GE. And this was been not just idea. We have very long talks about this, discussions, RE developments and tasks to realise this or that...
What I try to say, UJAM create beautiful engine, because they really listen ideas of developers (what devs really need to have in GE). Try to find something the same..

Theory of 35-fx as limit of GE, really not work. GE fxs is a real set of basic fundamental devices and you can use all of them as utilities to build new. Routings, and at the 1st place - scripting.
With scripting you can cool ideas and solutions. Its really flexible.

But about C2... its a very fast solution to build GUI. Create backdrop and add from library knobs.. cool. Fast!
If RS trying to add this visual editor as part of Reason SDK with possibilities to use custom graphical elements for all SDK widgets, its can be really incredible. Because time for SDK 2D GUI vs C2 editor is two different things.
I think that many of devs are happy to find visual editor as part of SDK...
But not think that is possible at near future.

So, as users, C2 - brilliant. I really loving C2 for one thing (MIDI OUT DEVICE + C2 interface = hardware controllers). Its already NEW level for the Reason at all. Use you CC/NRPN gear and control it from Reason rack! Dreams from early Reason versions!

So, GE - main idea also is build sample-based devices. But for me its something like a scripting with Reaktor. You just trying to create what you need!
I not find real parallels between C2 and GE/RE. Because C2 is a express-generator of UI and devices routings, with widgets limitation and very simple matrix editor.
As example - I can't make with C2 fine work by controlling many parameters with various ranges.. its working on the half.. Not thing this is a bug, this is more about limitations.. fr one results you need place this matrix line upper, for another results, at the bottom.. and you have with this various results.. SO.. C2 cool, but really not flexible and work in the way of starting a-la "devs itself" into reason rack.

Hard to say negative about anything... perfect time:
- RE SDK
- GE
- C2!!!! new additional way of Reason devices.

And cool if many of the devs start to create RE with steps of the C2. Additional degree of the device possibilities look.
Thank you so much for adding all this :D It helps clarify a lot of things.

Indulge me, though, if you don't mind.

Let's, as an example, say I'm making a RE filter in GE.

If I pull code from a DSP library somewhere on the web, then I can modify the code to add saturation to either feed-forward or feed-back models of any order, simply by adding a few random maxed samples to any batch, and taking the necessary precautions not to actually cause wraparound the integer etc.

Can I do the same thing in GE, in other words can I access the DSP buffer directly, either within one of these macro functions, or even just outside of it? Or is it much more "blocky" than that where it is entirely black-box and I don't even get control of the DSP buffers?

Cheers,
Brian

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turn2on
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Post 13 Sep 2021

I have interesting answer, but sorry its under NDA.
Just write to them and try to ask about all this. But they can answer to wait public release, because beta testers is very limited and under nda.
Public forum for Reason SDK is good place to talk, but not think that RT is good place to talk about GE with not the same license as Reason SDK. As minimum - old dev forum, where you can ask some questions about GE.
Last edited by turn2on on 15 Sep 2021, edited 2 times in total.

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nickb523
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Post 13 Sep 2021

Enlightenspeed wrote:
13 Sep 2021

Let's, as an example, say I'm making a RE filter in GE.

If I pull code from a DSP library somewhere on the web, then I can modify the code to add saturation to either feed-forward or feed-back models of any order, simply by adding a few random maxed samples to any batch, and taking the necessary precautions not to actually cause wraparound the integer etc.

Can I do the same thing in GE, in other words can I access the DSP buffer directly, either within one of these macro functions, or even just outside of it? Or is it much more "blocky" than that where it is entirely black-box and I don't even get control of the DSP buffers?
No, not even nearly. A RE filter with GE is literally like taking the ECF-42 and using the scripting to add front panel controls - That's it.

The only way to change the sound in any way is by doing things like adding EQ's and saturation before and/or after the filter - You are simply using modules creatively in exactly the same way as you would do inside a Combinator.

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turn2on
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Post 13 Sep 2021

For public release of GE, that available to approved RE devs, possible to use additionally scripting tricks to limit range, scaling, steps changes, modulations and functions to change character. But.. can't said more on public forum.
Really, not understand talks here about GE, that under NDA.
True that all this talks have something outdated base and for concrete talks RT not the right place (many questions with answers that under NDA).
Last edited by turn2on on 15 Sep 2021, edited 4 times in total.

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Creativemind
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Post 13 Sep 2021

joeyluck wrote:
08 Sep 2021
I think it comes down to features that they can add that make sense for the format. My wish for RE is this idea of having a pop-out window for advanced editors, alternate UI, etc. that is not confined by the rack width. So a dev could then have a tidy and concise UI in the rack and then a more advanced UI in a pop-out window, or it could just be used as a means to zoom just one RE at a time.
What about scrollable panels or switchable panels as part of the SDK?

Scrollable as in say a device had a section at the bottom that could scroll right to left - 1 containing a mod matrix, 1 containing fx.
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joeyluck
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Post 13 Sep 2021

Creativemind wrote:
13 Sep 2021
joeyluck wrote:
08 Sep 2021
I think it comes down to features that they can add that make sense for the format. My wish for RE is this idea of having a pop-out window for advanced editors, alternate UI, etc. that is not confined by the rack width. So a dev could then have a tidy and concise UI in the rack and then a more advanced UI in a pop-out window, or it could just be used as a means to zoom just one RE at a time.
What about scrollable panels or switchable panels as part of the SDK?

Scrollable as in say a device had a section at the bottom that could scroll right to left - 1 containing a mod matrix, 1 containing fx.
Switchable panels are already possible. And scrolling, at least on a custom display is also possible.

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turn2on
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Post 14 Sep 2021

Yes, custom_displays, or faders, and static widgets are already included in SDK for this and used in some REs.
Part of widgets supports visibility switchcing. SDK have very nice documentation

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Enlightenspeed
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Post 14 Sep 2021

nickb523 wrote:
13 Sep 2021
Enlightenspeed wrote:
13 Sep 2021

Let's, as an example, say I'm making a RE filter in GE.

If I pull code from a DSP library somewhere on the web, then I can modify the code to add saturation to either feed-forward or feed-back models of any order, simply by adding a few random maxed samples to any batch, and taking the necessary precautions not to actually cause wraparound the integer etc.

Can I do the same thing in GE, in other words can I access the DSP buffer directly, either within one of these macro functions, or even just outside of it? Or is it much more "blocky" than that where it is entirely black-box and I don't even get control of the DSP buffers?
No, not even nearly. A RE filter with GE is literally like taking the ECF-42 and using the scripting to add front panel controls - That's it.

The only way to change the sound in any way is by doing things like adding EQ's and saturation before and/or after the filter - You are simply using modules creatively in exactly the same way as you would do inside a Combinator.
I kind of thought as much :D Not for me tbh, but I'm sure there are plenty who prefer that way of working.

Cheers anyway,
Brian

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EnochLight
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Post 14 Sep 2021

nickb523 wrote:
09 Sep 2021
Ryan Harlin said this on one of the Combinator creation threads the other day. Nail > Head.
It's only starting to just sink in for me that Combinator 2 means everyone can become proxy plugin creators without needing to create the DSP. How many plugin developers spend their time making waveform, LFO, and filter DSP algorithms? We get to skip all all that do the fun part – the UX design and sound design.
drno wrote:
09 Sep 2021
The DSP is the fun part, if you like that, to create the Classic filter it took me a year of part-time research to find the right transfer function, many hours of testing in Matlab / Octave and Maxima
I know this is an old post from last week, but I think the point Ryan was making is that - you don't have to spend all that time creating that classic filter in this case. Imagine if you will - instead of spending an entire year of part-time research and many hours of testing - you instead spent that entire year releasing new products ready to go because all you had to do was design the UX and sound design?

But yeah, I agree using various black-box code from the web would certainly shave some time off (not that this is an option with GE).
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ekss
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Post 14 Sep 2021

All my REs are built with Gorilla. I think Nick severely undervalues GE in his posts here!

What I love with Gorilla is that I don't need to invest hundreds of hours into learning DSP – someone else has already done the work and is offering all the necessary building blocks for me to freely use and combine into new instruments and effects. Sure, the basic building blocks are the same - that's no problem, because depending on how you set it up, how you customize the bits and pieces, script the functionality, and route the signals it can have vastly different behavior and sound.
If you deconstruct any synth or effect they consist of the same basic building blocks; oscillators, filters, envelopes, delays etc... It's the way those building blocks are combined, how it's routed and calibrated that makes it a good product or not. And those building blocks in GE aren't static, they're very much customizable! And there isn't just one filter to chose from. So describing it like " taking the ECF-42 and using the scripting to add front panel controls" simply isn't true. GE is way more powerful than that. A lot of the stuff I do with GE just isn't possible with a combinator.

Then there's the GUI, which can be totally customized in an RE – even the backside of it!

I don't see C2 as a RE-killer. I see it as an improved combinator, new possibilities and a way for more people to create fun devices for Reason.

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turn2on
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Post 14 Sep 2021

Totally agree with Ekss! All right.
Combinations, routings, scripting, functions helps to have absolutely various results from the same modules.
Chains of modules, make un-static routings modulations - no points to talk about the same results at the end.
GE is very flexible, if you dive in it. And much deeper than its own (very good) documentation. You have variants for many tasks to realise.
Its not the same as "php+css" and skins. Combinator 2 - is a combinator + backdrop + set of controls.. Very limited matrix. When GE have a huge modulations in deep levels with customisation.

Topic name "Future of SDK" open talk to Combinator 2.0 today and not touch real Reason SDK talks.
But really no points of crossline between C2 and SDK

For users and devs - C2 is a perfect addition to present RE in basic and additional possibilities look. Really, now devs can stop to think.. add some functions or not to the device, because after the main idea of the device, all this moments (that under question) can be used in C2 patches.
Last edited by turn2on on 15 Sep 2021, edited 1 time in total.

drno
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Post 14 Sep 2021

Hi turn2on, In the beta you are testing from GE, could you tell me if it is implemented to provide your own DSP code through a DLL or any other means?

drno
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Post 14 Sep 2021

EnochLight wrote:
14 Sep 2021
I know this is an old post from last week, but I think the point Ryan was making is that - you don't have to spend all that time creating that classic filter in this case. Imagine if you will - instead of spending an entire year of part-time research and many hours of testing - you instead spent that entire year releasing new products ready to go because all you had to do was design the UX and sound design?
It was a very nice hobby, modeling capacitors and OTA amplifiers. You learn a lot about how signals behave with discrete components and it gives you a new perspective on software development and fights to avoid Aliasing.

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