Future of the SDK

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Tweak
Posts: 65
Joined: 16 Jan 2015

Post 07 Sep 2021

Hi Folks,

I've been looking at the release notes for the various SDK versions dating back a few years, and it seems we've not received a genuine advance in features since Players were released in 2018, with most other releases providing fixes or very minor changes. Since the new Combinator allows your average user to dabble in very simple device design, is it fair to say further advancement of the SDK with new development features is now truly out the window?

What are the plans here, has anyone any news to share? Typically a new Reason version has meant new SDK version, even if its only fixes, but we've seen nothing since 2020.

Marc

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pongasoft
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Post 07 Sep 2021

We are definitely awaiting a version that actually supports HD graphics, because believe it or not, at this time, we cannot test HD graphics locally... Besides this obvious "fix", it's clear that RS has been busy with Reason 12 and any new SDK has been put on the back burner. We hope that, now that R+ and R12 are beyond us, they will get back to improving the SDK and add new functionalities. But we don't know more than this (at least I don't, maybe other "privileged" developers may have more insights...).

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littlejam
Posts: 397
Joined: 15 Jan 2015

Post 08 Sep 2021

hello,

this could turn into a serious conundrum
for those users who will stay on R10 / R11
i think, won't it?
if the SDK changes

RE developers have interesting choices to be made

there should be a category in the propshop 'reason 12 and up'
something like that

cheers,

j
littlejamaicastudios
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reason 10 / reaper / acidpro /akai mpk mini / korg padkontrol / axiom 25 / radium 49
'i get by with a lot of help from my friends'

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Enlightenspeed
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Post 08 Sep 2021

littlejam wrote:
08 Sep 2021
there should be a category in the propshop 'reason 12 and up'
I can't remember but I have a feeling that at checkout it gives a warning if you are not on a recent enough version? Am I dreaming this? :puf_bigsmile:

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Enlightenspeed
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Post 08 Sep 2021

Tweak wrote:
07 Sep 2021
I've been looking at the release notes for the various SDK versions dating back a few years, and it seems we've not received a genuine advance in features since Players were released in 2018,
The C++17 stuff was another larger addition :D

From what I can gather it has been all hands on deck at RS for the last 2 years, because HD graphics is such a huge project. My understanding of the last general communication on this, which we received a few days ago, is that the SDK is now back on the "under investigation" list, much like things that were mentioned in Niklas' blog post such as tighter DAW integration and sequencer/workflow enhancements.

So....
It is at least back on the agenda! It will probably be some time until it is passed out to devs for testing. The HD transformation was always going to be a long and difficult task, with very little thanks from the vocal minority :puf_bigsmile: It sucks that this was the moment that Covid-19 chose to hit, and further elongated this rather unglamorous task, but ultimately, we're all still here while a lot of less fortunate folks are not - so it needs to be put in the "it is what it is" category.

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nickb523
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Post 08 Sep 2021

Enlightenspeed wrote:
08 Sep 2021

My understanding of the last general communication on this, which we received a few days ago, is that the SDK is now back on the "under investigation" list
Where and when was the SDK specifically mentioned? - I've heard nothing in relation to the RE SDK other than the HD update to Recon. :?

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Enlightenspeed
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Post 08 Sep 2021

nickb523 wrote:
08 Sep 2021
Enlightenspeed wrote:
08 Sep 2021

My understanding of the last general communication on this, which we received a few days ago, is that the SDK is now back on the "under investigation" list
Where and when was the SDK specifically mentioned? - I've heard nothing in relation to the RE SDK other than the HD update to Recon. :?
I PM'd the post from the Dev Forum to you :D

TBH there really isn't that much to it.

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joeyluck
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Post 08 Sep 2021

Since Reason Studios still builds REs, and a big benefit of Reason+ and additional revenue is adding devices, I would imagine that they would still focus on improving the SDK. I think sometimes a feature might not be thought of until it is needed. An example being Mimic not being able to import full REX files, which turned out to be a limitation of the RE SDK. So there's one reason to update it! That said, I didn't think anything as powerful as Mimic was possible with time stretching and slice detection, etc. but I guess that just shows how inventive and creative RS can be.

I think it comes down to features that they can add that make sense for the format. My wish for RE is this idea of having a pop-out window for advanced editors, alternate UI, etc. that is not confined by the rack width. So a dev could then have a tidy and concise UI in the rack and then a more advanced UI in a pop-out window, or it could just be used as a means to zoom just one RE at a time.

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nickb523
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Post 08 Sep 2021

I do question further development of the SDK. I mean, I don't want to be a Debbie Downer here but there are only like 5-10 active developers left and around 75% of them are Gorilla IDT devs who won't really benefit from new SDK features anyway. For resources to be directed at further SDK development this small pool of developers are going to need to be making a lot of money (so RS get their 30%), or RS are going to have to work seriously hard to bring in new bigger players with high-quality unique DSP devices.

With the market in it's current state, does anyone honestly believe that we are going to see an influx of super talented developers eager to release devices on this platform?

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jam-s
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Location: Aachen, Germany

Post 08 Sep 2021

nickb523 wrote:
08 Sep 2021
With the market in it's current state, does anyone honestly believe that we are going to see an influx of super talented developers eager to release devices on this platform?
It's a little bit a hen and egg problem or rather a vicious circle: Lacking SDK does not pull in lots of devs and few devs using the SDK leads to little further development and thus lacking features.
If you're in Aachen, come and visit us at the Voidspace. ... Pool's closed due to corona.

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rcbuse
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Post 08 Sep 2021

nickb523 wrote:
08 Sep 2021
I do question further development of the SDK. I mean, I don't want to be a Debbie Downer here but there are only like 5-10 active developers left and around 75% of them are Gorilla IDT devs who won't really benefit from new SDK features anyway. For resources to be directed at further SDK development this small pool of developers are going to need to be making a lot of money (so RS get their 30%), or RS are going to have to work seriously hard to bring in new bigger players with high-quality unique DSP devices.
I don't think the population of 3rd party developers matters at all for the health of the SDK. Rack extensions are almost 10 years old. RS has used the SDK for every device they have released for the past decade. At this point they have more devices built on the SDK than not. If they want a new features for their own devices, they will put them in the SDK first.

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nickb523
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Post 08 Sep 2021

rcbuse wrote:
08 Sep 2021

I don't think the population of 3rd party developers matters at all for the health of the SDK. Rack extensions are almost 10 years old. RS has used the SDK for every device they have released for the past decade. At this point they have more devices built on the SDK than not. If they want a new features for their own devices, they will put them in the SDK first.
True true, you're totally right. I never really thought about it from that angle. They'll just keep developing it for themselves and make it available for 3rd party use. I guess whether anybody uses it or not is the big question.

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fieldframe
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Post 08 Sep 2021

rcbuse wrote:
08 Sep 2021
nickb523 wrote:
08 Sep 2021
I do question further development of the SDK. I mean, I don't want to be a Debbie Downer here but there are only like 5-10 active developers left and around 75% of them are Gorilla IDT devs who won't really benefit from new SDK features anyway. For resources to be directed at further SDK development this small pool of developers are going to need to be making a lot of money (so RS get their 30%), or RS are going to have to work seriously hard to bring in new bigger players with high-quality unique DSP devices.
I don't think the population of 3rd party developers matters at all for the health of the SDK. Rack extensions are almost 10 years old. RS has used the SDK for every device they have released for the past decade. At this point they have more devices built on the SDK than not. If they want a new features for their own devices, they will put them in the SDK first.
I would agree, up to a point. I see the RE SDK as something that would have to exist even if it were a purely internal set of APIs and frameworks, as building each device as a one-off would not have been scalable past a certain point. I don't think it's an accident that The Echo, Pulveriser, and Alligator were built with the SDK before it was made public – even if RS had never gone all-in on third-party developers, they needed an SDK to keep the growing library of first-party devices sustainable.

But that's also the pitfall. RS is invested in continued development of the SDK, but they aren't necessarily invested in continued third-party development, and all the extra formalization, documentation, and support that comes with making internal tools available externally. Judging by where the store is featured right now, I'm a little worried that RS is going to gradually choke off third-party support, eventually returning the SDK to an entirely internal toolchain.
The Iron Law of Reason forums: All topics eventually turn into feature request threads; the only difference is how many posts it takes.

Looking for UI design? DM me for a portfolio.

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joeyluck
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Post 08 Sep 2021

nickb523 wrote:
08 Sep 2021
rcbuse wrote:
08 Sep 2021

I don't think the population of 3rd party developers matters at all for the health of the SDK. Rack extensions are almost 10 years old. RS has used the SDK for every device they have released for the past decade. At this point they have more devices built on the SDK than not. If they want a new features for their own devices, they will put them in the SDK first.
True true, you're totally right. I never really thought about it from that angle. They'll just keep developing it for themselves and make it available for 3rd party use. I guess whether anybody uses it or not is the big question.
Yeah that's the point I made too. Hoping they update it to have full REX file support so they can update Mimic 🤘

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nickb523
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Post 08 Sep 2021

fieldframe wrote:
08 Sep 2021
Judging by where the store is featured right now, I'm a little worried that RS is going to gradually choke off third-party support, eventually returning the SDK to an entirely internal toolchain.
They have put the shop back into a better position now with a link next to the search icon. The footer link is also just beneath the fold now so even that is better. I've already seen an increase in sales since that move alone which is great to see.

Despite my negative viewpoint, I don't think they will ever choke off third-party support entirely. I was saying to Brian @ Enlightenspeed earlier that I reckon RE's are going to continue to drop off, but will probably settle in a Max for Live type situation where they are more of a niche power user thing than something everyone needs. At this point I think that's the most likely outcome and they'll probably be quite healthy in that position. It'll be an overall smaller market but it should contain higher quality products with less rinse/repeat fluff getting in the way.

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joeyluck
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Post 08 Sep 2021

nickb523 wrote:
08 Sep 2021
Gorilla IDT devs who won't really benefit from new SDK features anyway.
But those using GE do benefit from overall SDK features, don't they? Or are you saying that they are scripting all of that? I know that the most active ones do a fair amount of scripting, but I always thought they had access to all of the same features.

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nickb523
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Post 08 Sep 2021

joeyluck wrote:
08 Sep 2021
But those using GE do benefit from overall SDK features, don't they? Or are you saying that they are scripting all of that? I know that the most active ones do a fair amount of scripting, but I always thought they had access to all of the same features.
Only the GUI side is shared so something like SDK REX support wouldn't change anything without an update to Gorilla itself. The scripting isn't really anything special, in most cases it simply the way controls are added and where ranges etc are specified. It's pretty uncomplicated most of the time but there are a few exceptions where some clever stuff has been done.

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joeyluck
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Post 08 Sep 2021

nickb523 wrote:
08 Sep 2021
joeyluck wrote:
08 Sep 2021
But those using GE do benefit from overall SDK features, don't they? Or are you saying that they are scripting all of that? I know that the most active ones do a fair amount of scripting, but I always thought they had access to all of the same features.
Only the GUI side is shared so something like SDK REX support wouldn't change anything without an update to Gorilla itself. The scripting isn't really anything special, in most cases it simply the way controls are added and where ranges etc are specified. It's pretty uncomplicated most of the time but there are a few exceptions where some clever stuff has been done.
Gotcha. Yeah I've been pretty impressed with the effects and instruments from ekssperimental sounds and turn2on. They seem to get pretty creative with it.

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nickb523
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Post 08 Sep 2021

joeyluck wrote:
08 Sep 2021

Gotcha. Yeah I've been pretty impressed with the effects and instruments from ekssperimental sounds and turn2on. They seem to get pretty creative with it.
Honestly, I don't want to get into ragging on other devs but most of that stuff (much like some of my own releases) are fairly simple FX chains, it's exactly the same principle as a Combinator except building the GUI is clunky and annoying. Imagine Combi 2 only had access to inferior FX, less of them and the only way to skin it was via PHP+CSS and you'll have an idea of what it's like to use Gorilla.

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Billy+
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Post 08 Sep 2021

nickb523 wrote:
08 Sep 2021
Enlightenspeed wrote:
08 Sep 2021

My understanding of the last general communication on this, which we received a few days ago, is that the SDK is now back on the "under investigation" list
Where and when was the SDK specifically mentioned? - I've heard nothing in relation to the RE SDK other than the HD update to Recon. :?
I think it was brought up during mimic q&a YouTube video while talking about rx2 and the SDK, definitely sounded more like an explanation rather than a we need to do another one...
VST 2.4 MIDI It's definitely on the list of todos
What MIDI tools are you itching to use

ˁ˚ᴥ˚ˀ Time for a good long sleep ˁ˚ᴥ˚ˀ

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Billy+
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Post 08 Sep 2021

nickb523 wrote:
08 Sep 2021
joeyluck wrote:
08 Sep 2021

Gotcha. Yeah I've been pretty impressed with the effects and instruments from ekssperimental sounds and turn2on. They seem to get pretty creative with it.
Honestly, I don't want to get into ragging on other devs but most of that stuff (much like some of my own releases) are fairly simple FX chains, it's exactly the same principle as a Combinator except building the GUI is clunky and annoying. Imagine Combi 2 only had access to inferior FX, less of them and the only way to skin it was via PHP+CSS and you'll have an idea of what it's like to use Gorilla.
Is that why it's impossible for us normal people to get our hands on it?
VST 2.4 MIDI It's definitely on the list of todos
What MIDI tools are you itching to use

ˁ˚ᴥ˚ˀ Time for a good long sleep ˁ˚ᴥ˚ˀ

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nickb523
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Post 08 Sep 2021

Billy+ wrote:
08 Sep 2021

Is that why it's impossible for us normal people to get our hands on it?
You should be able to access Gorilla with a RE dev account at RS.

I was going to do a video on a simple Gorilla build so people can see what I'm talking about but it turns out Gorilla is still under NDA. So we can go into details about the RE SDK but NOT Gorilla. So, for example I can't post a screenshot of of the 35 FX modules that everyone here has bought several times over.

I suggested YEARS ago that this should have been made more clear on the website so consumers are aware of exactly what they are buying. Something like "Powered by uJam" or "Powered by Gorilla" but nope, it's all left with zero transparency so the users don't have a clue.

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aeox
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Post 08 Sep 2021

nickb523 wrote:
08 Sep 2021
Billy+ wrote:
08 Sep 2021

Is that why it's impossible for us normal people to get our hands on it?
You should be able to access Gorilla with a RE dev account at RS.

I was going to do a video on a simple Gorilla build so people can see what I'm talking about but it turns out Gorilla is still under NDA. So we can go into details about the RE SDK but NOT Gorilla. So, for example I can't post a screenshot of of the 35 FX modules that everyone here has bought several times over.

I suggested YEARS ago that this should have been made more clear on the website so consumers are aware of exactly what they are buying. Something like "Powered by uJam" or "Powered by Gorilla" but nope, it's all left with zero transparency so the users don't have a clue.
It's been years and I still haven't figured out how to access it :D

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nickb523
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Post 08 Sep 2021

aeox wrote:
08 Sep 2021


It's been years and I still haven't figured out how to access it :D
If you have an active dev account it's 3/4 of the way down this page - https://www.reasonstudios.com/developer

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joeyluck
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Post 08 Sep 2021

nickb523 wrote:
08 Sep 2021
Billy+ wrote:
08 Sep 2021

Is that why it's impossible for us normal people to get our hands on it?
You should be able to access Gorilla with a RE dev account at RS.

I was going to do a video on a simple Gorilla build so people can see what I'm talking about but it turns out Gorilla is still under NDA. So we can go into details about the RE SDK but NOT Gorilla. So, for example I can't post a screenshot of of the 35 FX modules that everyone here has bought several times over.

I suggested YEARS ago that this should have been made more clear on the website so consumers are aware of exactly what they are buying. Something like "Powered by uJam" or "Powered by Gorilla" but nope, it's all left with zero transparency so the users don't have a clue.
I don't understand why that matters at all. UJAM's own awesome effect plugins are made using the same effect modules. Much of what I've seen of REs made using the GE is pretty unique and creative uses of those effects. Many devs make plugins using things like JUCE and similar, to start with building blocks. Many devs recycle open source code. All that matters is the end product and the results.

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