Master Bus Inserts: Toggle between pre and post-fade

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Aquila
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Post 29 Dec 2020

Unless I've completely missed a feature, the master bus inserts are currently pre-fade only.

That means the master fader can only adjust the volume of your master AFTER all the effects have been added. If, for example, you're using a maximiser, you can only achieve the correct output ceiling if you leave the master fader at 0.

It would also be nice to toggle it the other way round, so that you can set the master fader BEFORE any of the insert effects are applied.

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jam-s
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Post 30 Dec 2020

Aquila wrote:
29 Dec 2020
Unless I've completely missed a feature, the master bus inserts are currently pre-fade only.

That means the master fader can only adjust the volume of your master AFTER all the effects have been added. If, for example, you're using a maximiser, you can only achieve the correct output ceiling if you leave the master fader at 0.

It would also be nice to toggle it the other way round, so that you can set the master fader BEFORE any of the insert effects are applied.
I think, this feature is not needed as you can easily put all your mastering/limiting stuff inbetwen the mixer out and the hardware interface if you need them to be not affected by the master fader. (I usually put them in the Rack column at the left side of the hardware interface).
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selig
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Post 30 Dec 2020

jam-s wrote:
30 Dec 2020
I think, this feature is not needed as you can easily put all your mastering/limiting stuff inbetwen the mixer out and the hardware interface if you need them to be not affected by the master fader. (I usually put them in the Rack column at the left side of the hardware interface).
I do exactly the same thing, probably because I'm old (school) and want my mastering to come after my mixing. Also because dither, but that's a secondary function in my case! ;)
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Aquila
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Post 31 Dec 2020

jam-s wrote:
30 Dec 2020
I think, this feature is not needed as you can easily put all your mastering/limiting stuff inbetwen the mixer out and the hardware interface if you need them to be not affected by the master fader. (I usually put them in the Rack column at the left side of the hardware interface).
Good idea, hadn't thought of that. But still, it's nice to use the insert controls on the master bus so I wouldn't say not needed, but maybe not urgent.

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selig
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Post 31 Dec 2020

Aquila wrote:
31 Dec 2020
jam-s wrote:
30 Dec 2020
I think, this feature is not needed as you can easily put all your mastering/limiting stuff inbetwen the mixer out and the hardware interface if you need them to be not affected by the master fader. (I usually put them in the Rack column at the left side of the hardware interface).
Good idea, hadn't thought of that. But still, it's nice to use the insert controls on the master bus so I wouldn't say not needed, but maybe not urgent.
There's really no need for an actual toggle - there would be no occasion I can think of where I'd want to compare pre vs post fader mastering inserts, and the only use I have for the master insert is to connect side-chain filtering to the Master Compressor correctly.

As for insert controls, I use a Combinator for my mastering FX complete with "insert controls" including the built in master FX bypass, plus a few more I created myself for quick and easy adjustments. I assume that's what you were referring to? :)
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antic604
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Post 11 Jan 2021

Ok, two stupid / beginner / hobbyist questions:
- why change the position of master fader from unity?
- why put effects after fader on master?
Music tech enthusiast. DAW, VST & hardware hoarder :D
My "music" - https://soundcloud.com/antic604

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selig
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Post 11 Jan 2021

antic604 wrote:
11 Jan 2021
Ok, two stupid / beginner / hobbyist questions:
- why change the position of master fader from unity?
- why put effects after fader on master?
Why change any level? The master fader is the last "gain stage" for the mixer, so it's the last place/chance to adjust final levels. You can also do fade outs/ins using the master fader (anyone remember those?!?).

I put all mastering AFTER the master fader. Call me "old school", but that's how things used to go: mix first, master second. So in that more traditional scenario, ALL mastering could only happen after the master fader! ;) The other advantage is that when I DO send tracks out for mastering by a professional, I need only turn off the mastering I've added after the Master Outputs, and can rest assured everything that's left is a MIX element - and my "pre master" levels are restored, which are peaking between -3 to -6dBFS. Makes my life simpler.

I also cut my teeth on an SSL, learning to use the master compressor as a MIX tool rather than a mastering tool. SO every mix I ever made on any SSL I ever had the pleasure of working on used the master compressor, and the same is true for my Reason projects as well.
Selig Audio, LLC

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antic604
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Post 11 Jan 2021

selig wrote:
11 Jan 2021
I put all mastering AFTER the master fader.
You mean BETWEEN Master Out and Audio Out?
Isn't what Reason renders when you Bounce Mixer Channels or Export Song the output of Master Out, though?
Or are you recording the final file via your interface somehow?
selig wrote:
11 Jan 2021
...other advantage is that when I DO send tracks out for mastering by a professional, I need only turn off the mastering I've added after the Master Outputs, and can rest assured everything that's left is a MIX element - and my "pre master" levels are restored, which are peaking between -3 to -6dBFS. Makes my life simpler...
Isn't that what Bypass Inserts button on the Master section is for?
Music tech enthusiast. DAW, VST & hardware hoarder :D
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selig
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Post 11 Jan 2021

antic604 wrote:
11 Jan 2021
selig wrote:
11 Jan 2021
I put all mastering AFTER the master fader.
You mean BETWEEN Master Out and Audio Out?
Isn't what Reason renders when you Bounce Mixer Channels or Export Song the output of Master Out, though?
Or are you recording the final file via your interface somehow?
selig wrote:
11 Jan 2021
...other advantage is that when I DO send tracks out for mastering by a professional, I need only turn off the mastering I've added after the Master Outputs, and can rest assured everything that's left is a MIX element - and my "pre master" levels are restored, which are peaking between -3 to -6dBFS. Makes my life simpler...
Isn't that what Bypass Inserts button on the Master section is for?
To the first - Reason renders whatever you send to the Hardware Interface jacks. It is even "smart" enough to know when there is something plugged in there (between the Master Outputs and the Hardware Interface) because the Master Meter no longer shows any clipping (since it can't clip at that point since it's no longer the "end of the line").

To the second - I'm stuck doing it this way for three main reasons:
One, because when you add dither you must never make further changes, and having the master fader AFTER dither means it could happen. I know that's a minor issue in the big picture, but that's been drilled into my head now.
Secondly if I do a fade out I want to do it before mastering just like I've done for decades. This is because I do fades as a part of the mix process, not mastering.
Finally, because of the way Reason works the only way to add side-chain filtering on the Master Compressor is to put the inserts "pre compression", which means I can't bypass stuff there without also bypassing my side-chain filtering.
Selig Audio, LLC

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