A built-in 'Auto-Ride Fader' feature like Waves Vocal Rider?

[joeyluck]

I've been eyeing Vocal Rider by Waves. I gave it a try and the results are really great.

https://www.waves.com/plugins/vocal-rider

But it got me thinking...would it be possible to have something like this built into Reason?
Do any DAWs offer an option like this built-in?

I have many ways of working with vocals and levels. Often times using downwards compression, and sometimes upwards compression, and sometimes both. Other times I automate the fader, which is a lot work, but sometimes necessary. And something like this is a quick workflow solution to that. There is no coloration or compression type sound with Vocal Rider—it's more natural.

[Sterioevo]

The HoRNet plugins are worth a look/try.

Come to think of it, it wouldn't be that hard to build something - don't know how effective it would be though. Maybe a snappy exponential envelope controlling Selig's Gain RE?

There are some Max 4 Live solutions. Izotope Nectar 3 has it as well.

[Timmy Crowne]

That would be a welcome feature in my book. You can build one yourself this way, though:

You can split the audio signal off to an Mclass Compressor and route the gain-reduction CV out to an External MIDI Instrument’s CC input. Then use a MIDI loopback to send the CC signal to the channel fader via Remote Override. If you then press record, the fader rides will auto-write to the sequencer track. You can then experiment with the control signal using any CV manipulation RE you have; multiply/combine/invert/smooth/clamp/etc.

[xboix]

Waves Vocal Rider is something I use in almost every project. I think it gives better results than Selig's Leveller but that might put me in a minority on this forum! It probably does about 90% of the work and then I manually tweak the rest, usually the bit with the biggest volume variations (mostly due to less than ideal vocal technique).

If you like the Waves result, why not just buy it? It's almost always on offer, currently 40% off with coupon code CREATIVE40.

[selig]

Waves Vocal Rider is something I use in almost every project. I think it gives better results than Selig's Leveller but that might put me in a minority on this forum! It probably does about 90% of the work and then I manually tweak the rest, usually the bit with the biggest volume variations (mostly due to less than ideal vocal technique).

If you like the Waves result, why not just buy it? It's almost always on offer, currently 40% off with coupon code CREATIVE40.

If properly set up, Waves does a different thing (listening to the whole mix) than Leveler does, and does it better than any other solution I'm familiar with in my limited experience with such devices.
Leveler only gets you "leveled out" with regard to vocals and with no regard to the rest of the mix. If you know how to mix, that's no problem but if you're slow or unable to hear vocal balances, then Waves will be a better solution no doubt. Horses for courses IMO. Plus Leveler does MANY other super cool things you can't do with other devices - it was never designed specifically for vocals, BTW…

[xboix]

Waves Vocal Rider is something I use in almost every project. I think it gives better results than Selig's Leveller but that might put me in a minority on this forum! It probably does about 90% of the work and then I manually tweak the rest, usually the bit with the biggest volume variations (mostly due to less than ideal vocal technique).

If you like the Waves result, why not just buy it? It's almost always on offer, currently 40% off with coupon code CREATIVE40.

If properly set up, Waves does a different thing (listening to the whole mix) than Leveler does, and does it better than any other solution I'm familiar with in my limited experience with such devices.
Leveler only gets you "leveled out" with regard to vocals and with no regard to the rest of the mix. If you know how to mix, that's no problem but if you're slow or unable to hear vocal balances, then Waves will be a better solution no doubt. Horses for courses IMO. Plus Leveler does MANY other super cool things you can't do with other devices - it was never designed specifically for vocals, BTW…

Oh I realise they are not quite the same thing but the OP was wanting something like the Waves plugin and I wondered why he doesn't just use the Waves plugin. It's stable and works well in Reason. In my world a typical vocal track treatment would be listening and looking for excessively quiet bits, manually editing those sections to get them about the same as the adjacent sections then using vocal rider and compression for the rest. I trialled Leveler and it was OK but it really would not save me much time or effort so I passed on buying it, plus I tend to work in several different DAWs so an RE is not ideal (Using RRP just to run leveller would feel a bit excessive).

And we're getting off topic but Giles, have you ever considered making a VST version of leveller? It's a much bigger marketplace and there are not many easy to use upward compression tools.

[joeyluck]

The HoRNet plugins are worth a look/try.

Thanks I didn't know about AutoGain Pro, I'll check it out.

Come to think of it, it wouldn't be that hard to build something - don't know how effective it would be though. Maybe a snappy exponential envelope controlling Selig's Gain RE?

That would be a welcome feature in my book. You can build one yourself this way, though:

You can split the audio signal off to an Mclass Compressor and route the gain-reduction CV out to an External MIDI Instrument’s CC input. Then use a MIDI loopback to send the CC signal to the channel fader via Remote Override. If you then press record, the fader rides will auto-write to the sequencer track. You can then experiment with the control signal using any CV manipulation RE you have; multiply/combine/invert/smooth/clamp/etc.

Yeah I was curious if someone had built something and was trying to wrap my head around it. But if I were to get this working, would it only remove volume? Would it add it as well?

There are some Max 4 Live solutions. Izotope Nectar 3 has it as well.

Thanks for the heads up. I only have Nectar Elements. It's also a feature in RX Advanced, and I have RX Standard.

Waves Vocal Rider is something I use in almost every project. I think it gives better results than Selig's Leveller but that might put me in a minority on this forum! It probably does about 90% of the work and then I manually tweak the rest, usually the bit with the biggest volume variations (mostly due to less than ideal vocal technique).

If you like the Waves result, why not just buy it? It's almost always on offer, currently 40% off with coupon code CREATIVE40.

I imagine I will get it at some point. I'll certainly have projects again where I can put it to use, but not any at the moment. The main point of this thread was the idea it inspired of having it as a built-in feature. The concept just seems like a basic feature, and the DAW that has it as a right-click option would make it appealing.

I have looked at the current sale, and I've seen Vocal Rider for as low as $29 before, so since I don't need it right this second, I can wait. Right now with the coupon it takes it down to $47. And what's funny is you get a free $29 plugin when you spend $50. That's how they get ya lol. I wonder if I could convince them to charge me $3 more haha. But not a big deal right now.

[guitfnky]

echoing your comment about the tedium of automating faders...there’s nothing I dislike more than having to spend my time drawing automation. I only reach for automation if I need something very specific.

one thing I’ve started to do with vocals is to automate the ratio/compression amount, rather than the volume of the track fader itself. I’ll usually set the fader so the balance is good 85%+ of the time, and so that the loudest vocals sound good compared to the rest of the mix. this usually means there will be a few areas where the vocals dip below the music a bit. that’s where I would use automation to lower the ratio on the compressor, and allow the vocal to pop through more.

of course, it all depends on how you set your compressors. I tend to have fairly dense mixes and usually set the threshold for my vocal compression so it’s compressing a bit even on the quietest parts. if your threshold is above the quietest parts though, it may not work as well.

it’s obviously not automatic, and does still require a little bit of automation, but it’s a heck of a lot better than manually automating the entire vocal track.

[selig]

echoing your comment about the tedium of automating faders...there’s nothing I dislike more than having to spend my time drawing automation. I only reach for automation if I need something very specific.

I dislike drawing automation for fader rides as much as I dislike drawing notes for keyboard or drum parts. In both cases it's much faster to do it with hardware (not a mouse etc.). I was lucky to learn fader riding by watching some world class engineers mix over the years. It's a "performance", and there are some basic moves to learn - once you learn them you can pretty much to it in a pass or two or three.
Just like with keyboards or drums, once you learn do play, it's always faster than drawing notes in by hand.

That's the main reason I don't like the "automatic" approach to mixing either, as when I've tried them in the past I always need to "fix" a bunch of things that I hear but the "algorithm" cannot. Takes less time to just "do it" right in the first place…

[Sterioevo]

There is a number of plugins in the HoRNet offering that include an auto gain element, like their normaliser. You can download the demo plugins to be copied directly - no software needs to be installed.

The closest I have come to getting an effective CV envelope in this scenario is with the Audio to CV RE. It's tricky though because not only do you want an inverted amplitude envelope response that has the maximum audio level as the threshold, ideally you want this to be dynamic as well. This leads me to think that compression may have a role to play in analysing the incoming signal.

[joeyluck]

Yeah I'm definitely familiar with riding faders for mixing live vocals.

I do need a better option at home for recording fader automation. I have a BCF2000 which is packed away. It's a little too noisy for me and not very smooth feeling. It was more fun back when it was the only affordable motorized fader option.

[selig]

There is a number of plugins in the HoRNet offering that include an auto gain element, like their normaliser. You can download the demo plugins to be copied directly - no software needs to be installed.

The closest I have come to getting an effective CV envelope in this scenario is with the Audio to CV RE. It's tricky though because not only do you want an inverted amplitude envelope response that has the maximum audio level as the threshold, ideally you want this to be dynamic as well. This leads me to think that compression may have a role to play in analysing the incoming signal.

But isn't what we're talking about MUCH more than just leveling the vocal? If that was all you needed, Selig Leveler would be PERFECT (since it can do that job perfectly).

What you need (educated guessing) is a way for the device to listen to the instrument mix, account for basic Fletcher/Munson curves and crest factor/LUFS, and adjust the vocal accordingly with an RMS timing resolution to average things out as we hear it. Basically you need to simulate a pro engineer's ears listening to the mix and riding the level so the vocal effectively rides above the mix at a consistent user-settable level, right? But without increasing the breaths and noise and headphone bleed.
Basically a Selig Leveler "front end" (so you start with a truly level vocal, your "base line") that can ALSO "listen" to the mix so the leveled vocal adjusts automatically to the dynamics of the mix. You would thus need two plugins - one on the mix minus bus ("listening" to just the instruments) and one on the vocal channel (to ride the vocal). The plugin listening to the mix needs to ALSO listen to the vocal to know what range it occupies, so that it can make good decisions based on the spectral energy of the mix, so you need two-way communication to effectively do this job I would think. Mimicking the human brain is not easy, especially the brain of the elite mixing pros!

[Sterioevo]

Selig yes, and this seems to be the 2 seperate approaches/solutions that are available. Eg, Waves vocal rider - level rider and Terry West’s vocrider - adjusts level of track in reference to overall mix.
Perhaps Izotopes Nectar 3 integrated into the Neutron 3 system is an existing working solution that also includes the ability to perform cross referenced eq masking/frequency sidechaining. I say perhaps because I only have Neutron 2 so I speculating.
The more analytical functions (waveform analysis) and levelling could be done offline by a program, and then the finer tweakings done by ear in real time - I am thinking here of a broad range of material as opposed to vocals only. I need to check how this works in Izotopes RX, I haven’t had a chance yet but will report back.

[Sterioevo]

No can do sorry - it is in RX6 Advanced. I only have standard.

[joeyluck]

No can do sorry - it is in RX6 Advanced. I only have standard.

Yeah I checked and mentioned that above after your suggestion of Nectar. I have RX Standard. Although the upgrade to RX Advanced is half off right now!!.........for $399 Would be cool if they sold modules separately.