ReasonTalk.com

Dear Reason community and developers,

I would love to see some kind (any kind) of ability to see 2+ midi/audio tracks at the same time during editing. Sometimes I laydown a piano part, and want to write in some drums to go with it, but it's annoying to have to switch between the two tracks and try to remember where certain notes are (in time, from left to right). Compounding the problems with this workflow now, is the need to "open" clips once you change tracks. Also, the act of opening a clip shifts the panning of your view which I find disorienting.

This would all be solved by allowing the user to see two or more tracks/lanes at once; whether through stacking tracks/lanes one on top of the other vertically; or through "onion skinning"; or different colored notes/waveforms.

There are many creative solutions to this problem that range from simple solutions (stacking), to more subtle and clever solutions (onion skinning, etc.).

Thank you for your time.

Regards,

John

Hi John

We have raised this a few times over the years Initially I wasn't too keen but once I started more deliberate orchestration, I suddenly realized that it was a truly useful thing.

Have the folks at Propellerhead weighed in on the matter? You would think with how into electronica they are they would want something like this.

Not that I am aware of but that means nothing as Props are always tight lipped. Most updates come as a surprise to all.

Traditionally EDM people didn't really want/need this feature (more clutter) but it sure helps with Orchestration (and any composing).

I would very much appreciate a feature like this.

hmm with drums its not so easy as with my way you cannot do muted notes to have in a clip underneath .
with normal tracks for chords and scales the simple approach is to get your scale or chords you are using and add to the start of the note clip extra 64ths in length one 64th for each chord or scale used ie if you using a chord progression that uses say three chords for simpleness then add three 64ths to the start of the clip length your working on.
copy your chords make them 64th note sizes and add them into the start you just made on the clip.
you can copy them as many times as you want up and down the piano roll to cover the whole range if you like and scales normally best to do this and save em for later use with scales.

then just drag ya clip length back to on start of bar size.
hey presto you have something to work from not great and not as other daws can do perfectly well and good inside the clips etc. but this will help loads. example pic of what I mean attached if you use that clip to start your other clips in your track and copy it over etc youll all ways have the scales or chords at hand and in view.
if we had muted notes would be such a simple thing to add as overlay into the clips but we don't sadly.
and also with redrum and kong you could copy ya notes you wanted to follow in line with drop em in redrum to appropriate scaled note range and it would be easy but we haven't so blahhh.
but this should help in a small way and at end when song done select all clip and delete the spare bits ya put in at the starts.

submonsterz wrote:hmm with drums its not so easy as with my way you cannot do muted notes to have in a clip underneath .
with normal tracks for chords and scales the simple approach is to get your scale or chords you are using and add to the start of the note clip extra 64ths in length one 64th for each chord or scale used ie if you using a chord progression that uses say three chords for simpleness then add three 64ths to the start of the clip length your working on.
copy your chords make them 64th note sizes and add them into the start you just made on the clip.
you can copy them as many times as you want up and down the piano roll to cover the whole range if you like and scales normally best to do this and save em for later use with scales.

then just drag ya clip length back to on start of bar size.
hey presto you have something to work from not great and not as other daws can do perfectly well and good inside the clips etc. but this will help loads. example pic of what I mean attached if you use that clip to start your other clips in your track and copy it over etc youll all ways have the scales or chords at hand and in view.
if we had muted notes would be such a simple thing to add as overlay into the clips but we don't sadly.
and also with redrum and kong you could copy ya notes you wanted to follow in line with drop em in redrum to appropriate scaled note range and it would be easy but we haven't so blahhh.
but this should help in a small way and at end when song done select all clip and delete the spare bits ya put in at the starts.

simples.jpg

by the way you can still select and copy the notes from the ghost to the clip your working on and adjust their lengths etc.

My desire for this feature is for timing more than pitches - I also often need to line audio up to notes or vice versa. The SIMPLEST solution IMO is in-line editing, where you don't have to be in edit "mode" (one track at a time) to do your edits. This is really backwards thinking for a modern DAW IMO. If you could simply edit multiple tracks at once, then if they are next to each other you would at least be able to see the timing relationships just fine - and without adding the complexity of a "feature" like ghosting or similar. It would "just work".

I forgot to mention that i would like this for any type of clip. Audio, note and automation clips at the same time please. Also, can we have ghost copies ?

Yes please, to all of the above!

In reference to Ghost Copies, something like Photoshop's "Smart Layers" functionality would be really incredible: make a ghost copy of something to put in the sequencer, then take it further by non-destructively turning it into an audio clip to process in the rack and slice up and rearrange in the sequencer. Of course you can do that part of it already, but as a smart layer you'd then be able to go back and edit or replace the underlying clip, then press a button to re-render it and have all the effects and rearrangement be applied in the same way you had before. This would be absolutely magical.

I hate to say it as I get accused of reason hating but since getting reaper and fl both these have awesome ways of doing all this .
even audio ghosted under the notes to see your timings ...

Benedict wrote: Traditionally EDM people didn't really want/need this feature (more clutter) but it sure helps with Orchestration (and any composing).

I only make electonic music and I'd love to see this feature, the lack of it annoyed me only yesterday. Even EDM guys sometimes want to see their bassline while laying down a pad or whatever.

submonsterz wrote:I hate to say it as I get accused of reason hating but since getting reaper and fl both these have awesome ways of doing all this .
even audio ghosted under the notes to see your timings ...

Never thought of this feature with audio as well, that sounds amazing!

Need this function also. Also a mute tool would be nice. I think Reason is the only DAW left that doesn't have a mute tool for note editing.

I need it too.

I agree with this request. I'm new to Reason coming from Sonar and FL Studio. Those sequencers have this feature and I guess I never realized how lucky I was to have it until I started using Reason and thought surely there's a way to show more than one midi track side by side while editing the notes.

But actually Reason is so much better than those other DAWs in many other ways. My workflow has increased tremendously.

But I hope this feature is added soon. I'd probably upgrade for that feature alone.

Agree it would be great to see additional MIDI parts - I often do 4-part string parts. I usually write them in a generic "string" patch and then when done split them out to violins, viola, and cello.

Also yes it would be nice to see MIDI next to Audio.

selig wrote:My desire for this feature is for timing more than pitches - I also often need to line audio up to notes or vice versa. The SIMPLEST solution IMO is in-line editing, where you don't have to be in edit "mode" (one track at a time) to do your edits. This is really backwards thinking for a modern DAW IMO. If you could simply edit multiple tracks at once, then if they are next to each other you would at least be able to see the timing relationships just fine - and without adding the complexity of a "feature" like ghosting or similar. It would "just work".

Ghost notes was the notion that a lot of us +1'd on PUF. I don't think it would be that complex to add, although it would require a selector to route notes from a chosen lane over the current lane, which would be in some shade of grey or semi-transparency (contrast is important - cf R8 scroll bars). Even if it were limited to selecting another lane from the same sequencer track would be ok.

The problem of actually editing multiple tracks comes down to screen real estate. It's bad enough zooming in and out in two directions just to see one lane properly; trying to handle two at once? The lane height handling in Reason (velocity, pitch bend etc) is appalling. And while I'm here, there's also the issue that Reason's snap handling and bar line display is fucked, unless you only ever write in 4/4, cos that's pretty much the only time signature that works at all zoom levels

In other DAWs such tracks are handled as multiple windows, thus it's a tiresome battle of jogging windows around, so in Reason this would perhaps be a little easier if the sequencer could display multiple lanes or tracks at once. But given the choice, I'd prefer ghosts just for the visual simplicity of still only needing a single track. But either way, one of them is long overdue.

JiggeryPokery wrote:

selig wrote:My desire for this feature is for timing more than pitches - I also often need to line audio up to notes or vice versa. The SIMPLEST solution IMO is in-line editing, where you don't have to be in edit "mode" (one track at a time) to do your edits. This is really backwards thinking for a modern DAW IMO. If you could simply edit multiple tracks at once, then if they are next to each other you would at least be able to see the timing relationships just fine - and without adding the complexity of a "feature" like ghosting or similar. It would "just work".

Ghost notes was the notion that a lot of us +1'd on PUF. I don't think it would be that complex to add, although it would require a selector to route notes from a chosen lane over the current lane, which would be in some shade of grey or semi-transparency (contrast is important - cf R8 scroll bars). Even if it were limited to selecting another lane from the same sequencer track would be ok.

The problem of actually editing multiple tracks comes down to screen real estate. It's bad enough zooming in and out in two directions just to see one lane properly; trying to handle two at once? The lane height handling in Reason (velocity, pitch bend etc) is appalling. And while I'm here, there's also the issue that Reason's snap handling and bar line display is fucked, unless you only ever write in 4/4, cos that's pretty much the only time signature that works at all zoom levels

In other DAWs such tracks are handled as multiple windows, thus it's a tiresome battle of jogging windows around, so in Reason this would perhaps be a little easier if the sequencer could display multiple lanes or tracks at once. But given the choice, I'd prefer ghosts just for the visual simplicity of still only needing a single track. But either way, one of them is long overdue.

Maybe the ultimate solution is both options. I use Pro Tools a good bit still, but don't find the ghost note function to be that useful (or it's implemented poorly - not familiar enough with other options to tell). But I find that inline editing solves 99% of the issues for me. That being said, if the Props could implement even a simple ghost notes function that worked as well for audio tracks (and why not automation while we're at it), then that would get me at least half way to editing nirvana with regards to "relative" editing (editing one track in relation to another).

selig wrote:

JiggeryPokery wrote:

selig wrote:My desire for this feature is for timing more than pitches - I also often need to line audio up to notes or vice versa. The SIMPLEST solution IMO is in-line editing, where you don't have to be in edit "mode" (one track at a time) to do your edits. This is really backwards thinking for a modern DAW IMO. If you could simply edit multiple tracks at once, then if they are next to each other you would at least be able to see the timing relationships just fine - and without adding the complexity of a "feature" like ghosting or similar. It would "just work".

Ghost notes was the notion that a lot of us +1'd on PUF. I don't think it would be that complex to add, although it would require a selector to route notes from a chosen lane over the current lane, which would be in some shade of grey or semi-transparency (contrast is important - cf R8 scroll bars). Even if it were limited to selecting another lane from the same sequencer track would be ok.

The problem of actually editing multiple tracks comes down to screen real estate. It's bad enough zooming in and out in two directions just to see one lane properly; trying to handle two at once? The lane height handling in Reason (velocity, pitch bend etc) is appalling. And while I'm here, there's also the issue that Reason's snap handling and bar line display is fucked, unless you only ever write in 4/4, cos that's pretty much the only time signature that works at all zoom levels

In other DAWs such tracks are handled as multiple windows, thus it's a tiresome battle of jogging windows around, so in Reason this would perhaps be a little easier if the sequencer could display multiple lanes or tracks at once. But given the choice, I'd prefer ghosts just for the visual simplicity of still only needing a single track. But either way, one of them is long overdue.

Maybe the ultimate solution is both options. I use Pro Tools a good bit still, but don't find the ghost note function to be that useful (or it's implemented poorly - not familiar enough with other options to tell). But I find that inline editing solves 99% of the issues for me. That being said, if the Props could implement even a simple ghost notes function that worked as well for audio tracks (and why not automation while we're at it), then that would get me at least half way to editing nirvana with regards to "relative" editing (editing one track in relation to another).

I think we need mockups!

The thing is, Reason already supports ghost notes:
Ok, I've recoloured the blue "out of clip" notes red, but it's pretty much how it would look other than the background being the active clip rather than grey.

Tracks, otoh, would have to be something along these lines:

Benedict wrote:Hi John

We have raised this a few times over the years Initially I wasn't too keen but once I started more deliberate orchestration, I suddenly realized that it was a truly useful thing.

Specially to check chord inconsistencies and tonal imbalances. Definitely a must if well designed and with different color coding between the various active lanes. Cubase implemented this very well.

le93baron wrote: I'd probably upgrade for that feature alone.

came here to write that as well! This feature is a must. I miss it since I started with Reason a long time ago. Please don't take another 15 years of waiting

mcatalao wrote:

Benedict wrote:Hi John

We have raised this a few times over the years Initially I wasn't too keen but once I started more deliberate orchestration, I suddenly realized that it was a truly useful thing.

Specially to check chord inconsistencies and tonal imbalances. Definitely a must if well designed and with different color coding between the various active lanes. Cubase implemented this very well.

The one situation where I can definitely use ghost notes is in arranging "real" strings (samples or writing for live strings), as it will quickly tell you if you are doubling a line (accidentally or on purpose). But I don't do that sort of thing very often.

But there's an issue in that when you DO double a line one note will be hidden behind the other (and selection then must be addressed). This also can come up when working with drums where some samples may share the same note).

Ghost notes will also have to work with audio, and should ALREADY work with automation (ALL automation should be displayed with the source track ghosted behind it IMO - see attached image below).

The way this works should be simple - select multiple tracks then select "edit". The last track selected becomes the "top" layer (for editing), and you can change the "edit" track as you work if necessary.

I can generalize the difference between my need for ghost notes vs in-line editing for my work: I really need ghost notes to compare pitches between a few tracks at a time (and for automation, and in-line for timing across many tracks. Sure, I can compare timing with ghost notes, but only a few tracks at a time.

Did someone say "mockups"? Here's how automation should appear IMO:

Agreee with everithing, though in my case i think i'd use it more often. Dissonances can happen in most projects and when you're working on an arrangement for like 3 hours in a row, you start to get used to them as if they are part of the song. Specially those notest that have functions in the chords (a 6th, and a 9th can be functional on jazz but out of line on pop).

Another issue i have with these note representation is the velocity representaion. When you have multiple notes playing at the same exact time, and you want to change the velocity of one note (and not the other) you have to displace one note from the other, edit the velocity and re-place it. That and you cannot visualize the multiple velocities. When you select one note, it will show you the highest velocity one in the back, and the one you selected.

This could be simply solved by focusing the write tool, on a note if it was selected. If no not was selected, shave them all, else cut onl the one selected. Do i make sense?

I liked your mockup ofor the automation, and i would like to see all automation on top of the track. Maybe it could be added a automation lane selector, instead of having a bunch of automation lanes dropping from the main track.

mcatalao wrote:Another issue i have with these note representation is the velocity representaion. When you have multiple notes playing at the same exact time, and you want to change the velocity of one note (and not the other) you have to displace one note from the other, edit the velocity and re-place it. That and you cannot visualize the multiple velocities. When you select one note, it will show you the highest velocity one in the back, and the one you selected.

Holding down one of the modifier keys (I forget which it is, I'm so used to doing it without thinking ) will cause velocity changes to only affect the selected notes, so you can change velocities of certain notes in chords or other overlapping groups, without touching the other notes.