Unsaved patch indicator

Have any feature requests? No promise they'll get to Reason Studios, but you can still discuss them here.
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JiggeryPokery
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Post 20 Jan 2015

JiggeryPokery wrote:Propellerhead CHOSE to remove that feature. The feature request was to take it out. It's gone. It's awful, poor decision-making, it's a massive and backwards, workflow-killing step, but that's what PH chose to do.
wikholm wrote:
As far as I know, but I may be wrong, the "preview" of the old browser wasn't ever an intended, or perhaps even conscious, actual feature, but rather a very useful side-effect of how the old browser managed memory.

Being a software developer myself, I have also inadvertently and unknowingly created a useful side-effect or two, and been surprised when my users have regarded the behavior as a feature.

Say I did an ugly hack where I temporarily stored something on clipboard, and then forgot to tidy up when done. I'd consider myself to have caused a bug, while my users enjoyed my clever "auto-copy feature". I made that example up, because reality is more complicated, but you get the point.

Perhaps we shouldn't just presume PH deliberately chose to kill a useful feature. I think it's conceivable they never saw it as anything more than a side-effect of tidying up a canceled browsing dialog, and was genuinely surprised when we started batch about it.

That said, now when that behavior is gone, we should - just as we are - keep asking for it, but let's not attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by ignorance.
It doesn't matter if it was an unintended side-effect of the original implementation, and I'm beginning to suspect that suggestion is something PH have put out to cover up and justify its being removed. "Oh, it's bug, so we took it out". What, after 15 years?! Yeah, right. If that was the case why wasn't it removed when the browser was last updated, back in Reason... 4 I think it was?

You'd have to go through all the marketing but if it was ever mentioned or shown in a video, then it was an intended function.

So no-one asked for it to removed because everyone liked it. People asked for drag'n'drop, not removal of preview and the ability to freely browse with a mouse. Alpha and test pilots mentioned it, PH chose to ignore it.

PH could have kept pre-load simply be allowing

a) free mouse single-click selection of patches (the R8 browser only allows browsing of consecutive patches with keyboard arrows, so it's not really a browser, because you can't actually browse, merely select consecutive patches),

b) providing a cancel button, and

c) automatically hiding the browser when the load or cancel action was completed.

By not including those three basic abilities from the previous browser, it must therefore be an intentional decision to make it harder to use.

I emphasize again how bad the R8 browser is with a mouse. Ctrl-ordered selection of samples has been removed, which is a PITA too.

Drag'n'drop is kinda cool - I do like some aspects of the new browser, but overall it just gets in the bloody way. I hit the load icon and the browser pushes the device off the edge of the screen so I can't even see the fucking patch to preview the settings. Stupid.

If something that was a single-click is now a double-click, then the workflow 100% worse. That's not advanced maths!

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normen
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Post 20 Jan 2015

JiggeryPokery wrote:It doesn't matter if it was an unintended side-effect of the original implementation, and I'm beginning to suspect that suggestion is something PH have put out to cover up and justify its being removed. "Oh, it's bug, so we took it out". What, after 15 years?! Yeah, right. If that was the case why wasn't it removed when the browser was last updated, back in Reason... 4 I think it was?

You'd have to go through all the marketing but if it was ever mentioned or shown in a video, then it was an intended function.

So no-one asked for it to removed because everyone liked it. People asked for drag'n'drop, not removal of preview and the ability to freely browse with a mouse. Alpha and test pilots mentioned it, PH chose to ignore it.

PH could have kept pre-load simply be allowing

a) free mouse single-click selection of patches (the R8 browser only allows browsing of consecutive patches with keyboard arrows, so it's not really a browser, because you can't actually browse, merely select consecutive patches),

b) providing a cancel button, and

c) automatically hiding the browser when the load or cancel action was completed.

By not including those three basic abilities from the previous browser, it must therefore be an intentional decision to make it harder to use.

I emphasize again how bad the R8 browser is with a mouse. Ctrl-ordered selection of samples has been removed, which is a PITA too.

Drag'n'drop is kinda cool - I do like some aspects of the new browser, but overall it just gets in the bloody way. I hit the load icon and the browser pushes the device off the edge of the screen so I can't even see the fucking patch to preview the settings. Stupid.
Well you have to think about the fact that due to the old patch selection being modal (that is you can't do anything else while its open) they got around the issue that you don't need any undo steps while browsing. I do think that this "feature" was kind of unplanned and just came about due to how things were done. Not saying that it wasn't a good feature to have or that they couldn't implement something similar now as well. I'd still say that condensing all the (sequential) patch browsing to one undo step would already help a lot and would be the simplest solution imo (like I explained on the PUF).

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JiggeryPokery
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Post 20 Jan 2015

normen wrote:
Well you have to think about the fact that due to the old patch selection being modal (that is you can't do anything else while its open) they got around the issue that you don't need any undo steps while browsing. I do think that this "feature" was kind of unplanned and just came about due to how things were done. Not saying that it wasn't a good feature to have or that they couldn't implement something similar now as well. I'd still say that condensing all the (sequential) patch browsing to one undo step would already help a lot and would be the simplest solution imo (like I explained on the PUF).
Maybe, but they still call it a browser, and yet it doesn't work like a browser, it's a selector - you only really get one chance to select, so if you don't chose the exact patch you want first time, it's harder to use. Anyone who has used the system for 30 seconds is aware of this, and yet the marketing tells us this is better. Well, no, it's only better if you know what you want before you hit the Load icon on the device!

I confess at this point I've not tried 8.1 yet, so I'm not aware if any improvements have been made since R8 appeared, but in R8 if you have 100 patches in a folder, you can click patch 2, but then if you want to load patch 40 instead, this was impossible: it'll load a second instance of the device, so I have click ctrl-z... blah blah, oh it makes me maaaaaad! ;)

The only way to get from patch 2 to patch 40 was to click the down arrow 38 times. That workflow is 38 times worse than R7, and yet PH insist on telling us the browser has an improved workflow!! It's bonkers, and frankly a bit insulting.

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Gaja
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Post 20 Jan 2015

It might be an improvement of other peoples workflow. I enjoy Reason 8. the browser does seem a bit cumbersome at times. But I don't browse patches a lot, so it might just not be that much of a problem to me.
I don't like olives. So when my favourite restaurant has "improved" my favourite recipe by adding olives, it's not gonna do much for me, but others might love it. Of course with Reason you have the chance to just use 7 instead, whereas my favourite recipe is forever ruined with stupid olives. :frown:
Cheers!
Fredhoven

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JiggeryPokery
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Post 20 Jan 2015

Gaja wrote:It might be an improvement of other peoples workflow. I enjoy Reason 8. the browser does seem a bit cumbersome at times. But I don't browse patches a lot, so it might just not be that much of a problem to me. I don't like olives. So when my favourite restaurant has "improved" my favourite recipe by adding olives, it's not gonna do much for me, but others might love it. Of course with Reason you have the chance to just use 7 instead, whereas my favourite recipe is forever ruined with stupid olives. :frown:

Olives are an abomination... unless they're pressed and drizzled on pasta, then they're brilliant ;)


I can see the new marketing campaign now!

"Reason 7 does not contain olives"

"Allergy warning: Reason 8 may contain nuts"



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Gaja
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Post 20 Jan 2015

Lol
Cheers!
Fredhoven

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Namahs Amrak
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Post 20 Jan 2015

To deviate from the topic for a moment... Jiggery Pokery, I admire your willingness to speak out about the shortcomings of Reason 8. As you are a developer of high regard with many products in the Prop store, it's refreshing to see that you will not be silenced by fear of being reprimanded by your business associate. It also speaks in reassuring volumes that your criticisms are aligned with many of us commoners, the end users with no hand in the RE game apart from being customers.  I tip my hat to you, sir.
My Words are my ART

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JiggeryPokery
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Post 20 Jan 2015

Namahs Amrak wrote:To deviate from the topic for a moment... Jiggery Pokery, I admire your willingness to speak out about the shortcomings of Reason 8. As you are a developer of high regard with many products in the Prop store, it's refreshing to see that you will not be silenced by fear of being reprimanded by your business associate. It also speaks in reassuring volumes that your criticisms are aligned with many of us commoners, the end users with no hand in the RE game apart from being customers.  I tip my hat to you, sir.
I think it's called "biting the hand that feeds it" ;)

I should probably learn to stfu but R8 is the first upgrade I've not bought and that troubles me, as I want reasons to upgrade Reason and support the PH environment. But it aggravates me every time I use it (while I don't have R8 I do use the special testing version of R8 we get for RE development, so I do use it nearly every day).

There are some nice improvements in R8 - the much requested sequencer improvements I do really miss in R7. But overall, that browser, the dreary grey theme, flat look and the invisible transport bar (I loathe the flat look on the sequencer channels as well) wind me the hell up; I find R7 is nicer experience overall.

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tiker01
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Post 21 Jan 2015

To sum it up the problem with R8 is that PH made several bad decisions (Browser, Transport bar, Mixer) and I fear that they might stick around just because PH won`t have the balls to revert/fix them.

I think they should change their philosophy and involve more users in the development at early stages now that Reason is getting more and more complicated.

Another thing they should do is give users more freedom setting up the user interface e.g. reorder the transport bar, devices in the browser etc. Basically accept that we are not dumb. 
    
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craven
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Post 21 Jan 2015

tiker01 wrote:To sum it up the problem with R8 is that PH made several bad decisions (Browser, Transport bar, Mixer)  
sorry for the question--- I never even tried R8, but what happened to the mixer? First time I hear this. Are there changes as well?
:ugeek:

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tiker01
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Post 21 Jan 2015

tiker01 wrote:To sum it up the problem with R8 is that PH made several bad decisions (Browser, Transport bar, Mixer)  
craven wrote:
sorry for the question--- I never even tried R8, but what happened to the mixer? First time I hear this. Are there changes as well?
They changed the browser into a "transparent" bar which overlaps with the Channel names. Here it is:

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wikholm
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Post 22 Jan 2015

tiker01 wrote:I think they should change their philosophy and involve more users in the development at early stages now that Reason is getting more and more complicated.
That would be nice. However, with the DAW market getting increasingly more competitive, they will quite likely have to involve less users at early (and late) stages to keep information (and betas) from their competitors. A bit like the car and phone makers, who holds on very tightly to their prototypes these days.
tiker01 wrote:Another thing they should do is give users more freedom setting up the user interface e.g. reorder the transport bar, devices in the browser etc. Basically accept that we are not dumb. 
Yes, I think so too. To not overwhelm new users most of such options could be disabled by default. The current (rather basic) "Advanced" tab in the settings could become "Miscellaneous" to leave room for an actual "Advanced" tab. More advanced users could go there and, say, unlock the transport bar, tinker with meter response times, or change how the browser behaves.

That said, as a developer, I also know that many such settings is a great way to create subtle bugs, because with enough settings, you simply can't test all valid combinations.

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tiker01
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Post 23 Jan 2015

tiker01 wrote:I think they should change their philosophy and involve more users in the development at early stages now that Reason is getting more and more complicated.
wikholm wrote: That would be nice. However, with the DAW market getting increasingly more competitive, they will quite likely have to involve less users at early (and late) stages to keep information (and betas) from their competitors. A bit like the car and phone makers, who holds on very tightly to their prototypes these days.
Fl Studio even has public Aplha versions AFIAK. And they could get the testers to sign NDA not just an "are you agree" kind of thing like during Beta tests.
    
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wikholm
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Post 23 Jan 2015

tiker01 wrote:Fl Studio even has public Aplha versions AFIAK. And they could get the testers to sign NDA not just an "are you agree" kind of thing like during Beta tests.
Perhaps FL is aiming to be a fairly generic DAW, while PH tries, in their way, to be cutting edge, and thus might think they have more valuable secrets to protect. I'd like public alphas and open dialogues too, but Reason has always been a bit of a walled garden, and I think we'll get more of it. I'd love to be wrong, though.

For an NDA to stop curious competitors the consequences of breaching it needs to be severe, which will likely scare away those who actually wants to help. Involving lots of people without spilling the beans is rather hard.

Our realistic hope, I think, is that PH decides to become less secretive, but I think that won't happen until PH feels they're no longer competitive and, well, for selfish reasons I want Reason to stay fairly successful. Ugh...

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Noplan
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Post 23 Jan 2015

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