RRP as Melodyne competitor?

Have any feature requests? No promise they'll get to Reason Studios, but you can still discuss them here.
strange_scenery
Posts: 37
Joined: 05 Nov 2020

Post 10 Jun 2021

Reason has a very good pitch editor, rivaling Melodyne. An interesting idea I thought of, is that if the Reason Rack Plugin added audio tracks with pitch edit, that would be a very compelling feature, especially for Live, Bitwig and Reaper users (as they don't have built-in pitch editing), as they would essentially be getting Melodyne for free with Reason.

User avatar
raymondh
Posts: 1467
Joined: 15 Jan 2015

Post 10 Jun 2021

Interesting idea!

I really like the pitch editor inside Reason's sequencer, but in using Reaper, Melodyne 5 is way ahead. A lot more control, and they have rewritten the pitching algorithm. There's so much you can do , depending on which $edition of Melodyne you have. The Melodyne piano roll also tracks really well with the host daw sequencer.
Win 10 64-bit | :reason: 11 | Reaper | Scarlet 18i8 | M-Audio Code 61 | KRK VXT-6 | JX-8P | System-8 | D-05 | JP-08 | Sirin

User avatar
Fotu
Posts: 77
Joined: 11 Jan 2017

Post 10 Jun 2021

raymondh wrote:
10 Jun 2021
I really like the pitch editor inside Reason's sequencer, but in using Reaper, Melodyne 5 is way ahead.
That's been my experience with Logic, too. I prefer Reason's pitch editor over Logic's native 'flex' tools, but IMO Melodyne is in a different class of excellence.

User avatar
guitfnky
Posts: 3464
Joined: 19 Jan 2015

Post 10 Jun 2021

Reason’s pitch editing is good, but not great. there are times when it behaves really strangely, and you definitely have to be wary of artifacts cropping up (sometimes on stuff you’re not even actually changing).

personally, I’d rather the DAWs build their own pitch editors than relying on Melodyne or any other third party plugin. pitch editing is enough a pain in the ass as it is without having to fight against something that’s not tightly integrated with the DAW. I’m hoping Live is working on adding it, because that’s the only major feature that’s missing, for me.

DaveyG
Posts: 986
Joined: 03 May 2020

Post 10 Jun 2021

guitfnky wrote:
10 Jun 2021
personally, I’d rather the DAWs build their own pitch editors than relying on Melodyne or any other third party plugin.
That's because you haven't tried a plugin and DAW that both support ARA. Melodyne in Studio One is a plugin but behaves like it's built-in. It even appears in the S1 context menus. You edit pitch and timing right there in the audio editor. It's very clever technology and Melodyne is streets ahead of Reason's built-in editor. It's like comparing Windows Paint with Photoshop.

ARA is currently supported by Apple Logic Pro X, Steinberg Cubase and Nuendo, Presonus Studio One, Bandlab Cakewalk, Magix Samplitude Pro, Sequoia and Sound Forge, Cockos Reaper, Acoustica Mixcraft and Tracktion Waveform. Any bets on when Reason will support it? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

There are not currently many ARA plugins but the ones that there are are the ones you want to be using for pitch and timing correction: Melodyne, AutoTune, VocAlign.

User avatar
mcatalao
Posts: 1475
Joined: 17 Jan 2015

Post 10 Jun 2021

You have to seriously test melodyn against Reason's pitch editor, paying 300+ eur to get what reason has is nonsense compared to what melodyne gives you.

Reason's pitch editor is good, maybe at par with Melodyne for the most basic version, but compared to editor... i have my doubts.

User avatar
guitfnky
Posts: 3464
Joined: 19 Jan 2015

Post 10 Jun 2021

DaveyG wrote:
10 Jun 2021
guitfnky wrote:
10 Jun 2021
personally, I’d rather the DAWs build their own pitch editors than relying on Melodyne or any other third party plugin.
That's because you haven't tried a plugin and DAW that both support ARA. Melodyne in Studio One is a plugin but behaves like it's built-in. It even appears in the S1 context menus. You edit pitch and timing right there in the audio editor. It's very clever technology and Melodyne is streets ahead of Reason's built-in editor. It's like comparing Windows Paint with Photoshop.

ARA is currently supported by Apple Logic Pro X, Steinberg Cubase and Nuendo, Presonus Studio One, Bandlab Cakewalk, Magix Samplitude Pro, Sequoia and Sound Forge, Cockos Reaper, Acoustica Mixcraft and Tracktion Waveform. Any bets on when Reason will support it? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

There are not currently many ARA plugins but the ones that there are are the ones you want to be using for pitch and timing correction: Melodyne, AutoTune, VocAlign.
that’s true—I haven’t used any ARA2 plugins, but I’ve heard it’s definitely a much better workflow. the bet you’re taking is the biggest reason to advocate for integrated pitch editing in the DAWs (vs. the request to use Reason for pitch editing in RRP)—there’s almost no chance they’d do that to begin with, but doing it the right way, with ARA2 instead of the kludgy way some plugins work without, is exactly as laughable as you suggest—it ain’t going to happen. 😆

even setting that aside, there are benefits to having pitch editing integrated within the DAW itself. the main ones are, there’s no separate upgrade path, or additional cost. no need to upgrade to Live 12 (now with ARA2 support!) AND buy Melodyne on top of that—and no need to pay another fee if you want to upgrade to Melodyne 6, then 7, etc.

but it’s good to know that ARA2 is a pretty seamless experience. I’m confident Ableton will add one or the other pretty soon, and I won’t hesitate to jump on whichever solution they go with (I just hope it’s the wallet-friendlier one).

DaveyG
Posts: 986
Joined: 03 May 2020

Post 10 Jun 2021

guitfnky wrote:
10 Jun 2021

even setting that aside, there are benefits to having pitch editing integrated within the DAW itself. the main ones are, there’s no separate upgrade path, or additional cost. no need to upgrade to Live 12 (now with ARA2 support!) AND buy Melodyne on top of that—and no need to pay another fee if you want to upgrade to Melodyne 6, then 7, etc.
Melodyne Essential is included with Studio One Pro. It's the entry level tier but still very capable, still better than Reason's pitch editing and is a proper licence so you can upgrade it if you choose.

User avatar
joeyluck
Moderator
Posts: 8489
Joined: 15 Jan 2015

Post 10 Jun 2021

I have melodyne and the differences are indiscernible to me. For small adjustments, both are great. For big adjustments, both are noticeable. As a Reason user, it's much easier for me to use Reason's pitch edit.

User avatar
raymondh
Posts: 1467
Joined: 15 Jan 2015

Post 10 Jun 2021

Just to note there is a significant difference in quality between Melodyne 4 and 5. If you thought Reason pitch shifting was as good as Melodyne 4 or earlier, and want something better, it's worth checking out v5. They rewrote the algorithm.

Also worth mentioning these tools are not AI, you do need to spend time learning them to get the best results. When one note is a way from the last one, there's a decision about how much vocal drift to preserve, and maybe manually cut a single syllable so you can repitch part of what Melodyne thought was a single word etc.

ARA is amazing for sure. In Reaper it is not seamless in the audio tracks suddenly are like Reason's pitch edit, but when you open the Melodyne plug in it opens it's own piano roll window with the audio, that tracks to the sequencer when playing back.
If you copy a section of audio and paste later in the song, it will copy all the Melodyne tweaks on the audio too.
Win 10 64-bit | :reason: 11 | Reaper | Scarlet 18i8 | M-Audio Code 61 | KRK VXT-6 | JX-8P | System-8 | D-05 | JP-08 | Sirin

User avatar
EdwardKiy
Posts: 697
Joined: 02 Oct 2019

Post 10 Jun 2021

DaveyG wrote:
10 Jun 2021

ARA is currently supported by Apple Logic Pro X, Steinberg Cubase and Nuendo, Presonus Studio One, Bandlab Cakewalk, Magix Samplitude Pro, Sequoia and Sound Forge, Cockos Reaper, Acoustica Mixcraft and Tracktion Waveform. Any bets on when Reason will support it? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
I'd really rather RS focus on quality-of-life stuff first, action shortcuts, hotkeys - that kind of thing. Like if I could pause with "spacebar" and the focus would stay on the exact spot I stopped it, and if I did it with "shift+spacebar" it would return me to the previously set position, instead of having to only choose ONE of these options through the menu, which I find both stupid and annoying. Or hotkeys for pitch edit/slice edit? Come on now... ARA support can wait, although how far RS are behind competition just makes you want to scream at them.

Melodyne is more advanced in that you can much more easily create a pitch-perfect (and natural-sounding) vocal line for a dance track or conveyor pop, like Ariana Grande. But even if you take a voice much more mature and intricate than Ariana Grande's and then edit it to be pitch-perfect, it looses all character and becomes absolutely indistinguishable from another. I can NEVER tell it's Ariana singing. It's completely plastic. It shouldn't even have a name. Hell, it's now hard to tell someone like Dua Lipa from Billie Eilish because of how similar their voices are processed. Eilish now writing songs about "copycats tryin to cop my manner", which I guess means poor posture, no glottal compression, low range, no diaphragmatic support and a cardioid mic preamp set all the way to burgundy. This happens when your "style" is based on technicalities instead of skill. I've heard singers who sound more like Billie Eilish than Billie Eilish at our local "Studio 44". But I digress...

Sibilance control in Melodyne is okay. $29 or whatever for the selig de-esser gets the same job done in even fewer clicks, just saying. And if you want manual control - you still go down and clickedy-click it all manually in either case.

In short, I like Reason pitch editor better precisely because of how rough, hammer-and-chisel it is, how it pushes you to sing better when your takes are garbage instead of 'fixing' your recordings. However, if I absolutely had to help out some disabled people and record some vocals as their dying wish (or if I were working in a studio and doing it for money) I would definitely go with Melodyne.

Melodyne is more helpful and quicker to get you to 'average', but it gets you no closer to the "top", than the Reason Pitch Editor. Think Al Green, Gladys and the Pips, Joe Cocker, Whitney Houston, Joplin, Winehouse, Jack White or even that dude who rapped in dissonants - Mac Miller. Doesn't matter if we're talking soft soul singing or belting rock. With vocal you can bend tone and make it harmonize at the beginning, middle or end of a phrase/a word or a single vowel, or go completely pitch-less or even dissonant and let the music harmonize. Melodyne's idea is that you can only bend the beginning or the end of a vowel, not the middle, (let alone messing with the other stuff I mentioned) which is correct mathematically, but not musically. On a more macro level, that's what Beatles or Nirvana were doing in music - going out of key and then harmonizing back in. That's what made it so memorable and distinguishable. We enjoy imperfection and most of the VST market is now built on selling us "vintage" and "analogue" dirt to bring back into the plastic-perfect digital sound.

Damn this didn't come out short at all...
another recap:
1) if you are a producer, and not a singer and want to get the material out in as fewer takes/time as possible - Melodyne is clearly better (but it will impede your progress as a singer)
2) if you are a singer/musician/composer who does a project all alone start-to-finish - Reason Pitch Editor, although technically worse, will serve your vocal skill better in the long run
Reason 12 - last chance.

User avatar
pushedbutton
Posts: 1381
Joined: 16 Jan 2015
Location: Lancashire, UK

Post 10 Jun 2021

I really like Reason's pitch editor but it lacks the ability to use a midi lane as a guide.
If you could import a midi (usually channel 4) vocal lane into it an brute force the tuning to it or at least see it then I'd use it a lot more. As it is I find myself using Neptune because there's less steps to getting the right pitch from a ropey vocal.
@pushedbutton on twitter, add me, send me a message, but don't try to sell me stuff cos I'm skint.
Using Reason since version 3 and still never finished a song.

User avatar
raymondh
Posts: 1467
Joined: 15 Jan 2015

Post 10 Jun 2021

EdwardKiy wrote:
10 Jun 2021
DaveyG wrote:
10 Jun 2021

ARA is currently supported by Apple Logic Pro X, Steinberg Cubase and Nuendo, Presonus Studio One, Bandlab Cakewalk, Magix Samplitude Pro, Sequoia and Sound Forge, Cockos Reaper, Acoustica Mixcraft and Tracktion Waveform. Any bets on when Reason will support it? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
I'd really rather RS focus on quality-of-life stuff first, action shortcuts, hotkeys - that kind of thing. Like if I could pause with "spacebar" and the focus would stay on the exact spot I stopped it, and if I did it with "shift+spacebar" it would return me to the previously set position, instead of having to only choose ONE of these options through the menu, which I find both stupid and annoying. Or hotkeys for pitch edit/slice edit? Come on now... ARA support can wait, although how far RS are behind competition just makes you want to scream at them.

Melodyne is more advanced in that you can much more easily create a pitch-perfect (and natural-sounding) vocal line for a dance track or conveyor pop, like Ariana Grande. But even if you take a voice much more mature and intricate than Ariana Grande's and then edit it to be pitch-perfect, it looses all character and becomes absolutely indistinguishable from another. I can NEVER tell it's Ariana singing. It's completely plastic. It shouldn't even have a name. Hell, it's now hard to tell someone like Dua Lipa from Billie Eilish because of how similar their voices are processed. Eilish now writing songs about "copycats tryin to cop my manner", which I guess means poor posture, no glottal compression, low range, no diaphragmatic support and a cardioid mic preamp set all the way to burgundy. This happens when your "style" is based on technicalities instead of skill. I've heard singers who sound more like Billie Eilish than Billie Eilish at our local "Studio 44". But I digress...

Sibilance control in Melodyne is okay. $29 or whatever for the selig de-esser gets the same job done in even fewer clicks, just saying. And if you want manual control - you still go down and clickedy-click it all manually in either case.

In short, I like Reason pitch editor better precisely because of how rough, hammer-and-chisel it is, how it pushes you to sing better when your takes are garbage instead of 'fixing' your recordings. However, if I absolutely had to help out some disabled people and record some vocals as their dying wish (or if I were working in a studio and doing it for money) I would definitely go with Melodyne.

Melodyne is more helpful and quicker to get you to 'average', but it gets you no closer to the "top", than the Reason Pitch Editor. Think Al Green, Gladys and the Pips, Joe Cocker, Whitney Houston, Joplin, Winehouse, Jack White or even that dude who rapped in dissonants - Mac Miller. Doesn't matter if we're talking soft soul singing or belting rock. With vocal you can bend tone and make it harmonize at the beginning, middle or end of a phrase/a word or a single vowel, or go completely pitch-less or even dissonant and let the music harmonize. Melodyne's idea is that you can only bend the beginning or the end of a vowel, not the middle, (let alone messing with the other stuff I mentioned) which is correct mathematically, but not musically. On a more macro level, that's what Beatles or Nirvana were doing in music - going out of key and then harmonizing back in. That's what made it so memorable and distinguishable. We enjoy imperfection and most of the VST market is now built on selling us "vintage" and "analogue" dirt to bring back into the plastic-perfect digital sound.

Damn this didn't come out short at all...
another recap:
1) if you are a producer, and not a singer and want to get the material out in as fewer takes/time as possible - Melodyne is clearly better (but it will impede your progress as a singer)
2) if you are a singer/musician/composer who does a project all alone start-to-finish - Reason Pitch Editor, although technically worse, will serve your vocal skill better in the long run
What a great write up!! Very enjoyable read! Right there with you in your point that there is perfection in imperfection.

There's definitely a case here (and I think this is part of your point) that it's not about the tool, it's about the way you use it.
Just because we use a pitching tool, doesn't mean we want to suck the life out of the vocals, and we have to get past the marvel of 'correction' to get the right impact.

That said;
1. We're not all Eva Cassidy, and these other artists that are top of their game. A tool that with the right use can give us a leg-up is a great tool to have :)
2. Everything we do in production is abstracting from the raw character of the voice (or other instruments), not just pitch correction. The moment we start EQ'ing, compressing, even applying reverb, we are changing the original, and putting a spin on the sound that the artist may or may not have intended. Just like retouching a photo in photoshop starts the moment we change the levels. One can argue that we are making the picture / sound fake, but then it was fake the moment it was captured by a camera / microphone in the first place. Mixing and production is viewed by many as part of a mechanical process of getting a track as loud / as "pro" as possible but I see it is part of the interpretation process. I think Benedict Roff-Marsh explains this really well in his videos where he talks about mixing for the emotional intent of the track.

I (would like to) think there is a greater community of people these days that enjoy indie music rather than just the commercial successes. Part of this is because a lot of commercial music has become a lot more 'samey' and the indie music (including on this forum) is more individualised, exploratory, and not dumbed down by engineers/producers focused on the hitting charts and streaming counts.
Win 10 64-bit | :reason: 11 | Reaper | Scarlet 18i8 | M-Audio Code 61 | KRK VXT-6 | JX-8P | System-8 | D-05 | JP-08 | Sirin

User avatar
joeyluck
Moderator
Posts: 8489
Joined: 15 Jan 2015

Post 10 Jun 2021

raymondh wrote:
10 Jun 2021
Just to note there is a significant difference in quality between Melodyne 4 and 5. If you thought Reason pitch shifting was as good as Melodyne 4 or earlier, and want something better, it's worth checking out v5. They rewrote the algorithm.
I have v5, but I still use Reason's pitch edit. I can't hear a difference. They sound the same to me for small adjustments and for big adjustments they both sound unnatural. So with either, if it's not a small adjustment, I ask for a redo...

User avatar
raymondh
Posts: 1467
Joined: 15 Jan 2015

Post 10 Jun 2021

joeyluck wrote:
10 Jun 2021
raymondh wrote:
10 Jun 2021
Just to note there is a significant difference in quality between Melodyne 4 and 5. If you thought Reason pitch shifting was as good as Melodyne 4 or earlier, and want something better, it's worth checking out v5. They rewrote the algorithm.
I have v5, but I still use Reason's pitch edit. I can't hear a difference. They sound the same to me for small adjustments and for big adjustments they both sound unnatural. So with either, if it's not a small adjustment, I ask for a redo...
OK that's good to know. Kudos to the Reasontalk devs!
Win 10 64-bit | :reason: 11 | Reaper | Scarlet 18i8 | M-Audio Code 61 | KRK VXT-6 | JX-8P | System-8 | D-05 | JP-08 | Sirin

  • Information
  • Who is online

    Users browsing this forum: CommonCrawl [Bot] and 0 guests