Reason vs. the competition: make it competitive again

[chaosroyale]

(Edited for more neutral point of view and clarity)- For context - I use music software professionally: and have used Reason since 2.5
Recently I am not using Reason so much, but after a gap of 2 months I came back to it today to remix a track for a client, and here were my "refreshed" impressions after being away.

Issue 1- SPEED
Loading is slower than other DAWs. Dragging things around the screen feels less smooth. Lots of devices in menus you might not want.
Fix1a- Let us choose what is loaded. Let people "uncheck" any and all devices / RE's, / soundbank samples. Skip loading and scanning them.
Fix1b- Re-coded more efficient GUI
Fix1c- Allow un-check for Rack extensions when syncing

Issue 2 - OUTDATED DEVICES
Aliasing on some devices. No modern sampler. New flat UI's don't really fit with the classic Reason look. Old devices have well-planned designs, but small cramped UIs.
Fix2a- Hi- Q option/ oversample option on the back of devices.
Fix2b- Update the GUI of the older devices to keep the same look, but be larger and more in line with Europa. Stop making flat UI with wasted empty space.
Fix2c- Upgrade the MClass devices / sampler etc

Issue 3- AUTOMATION
Some good points but: No text inputs. Contradictory input and labelling conventions. Limits on modulation and controls in combinator.
Fix3a- The Supercombinator, with an expanded mod matrix. Customizable rows of knobs/sliders/buttons, so each combinator takes up as much space as the user wants.
Fix3b- Text input <-this is a huge time saver
Fix3c- Rationalize the automation lanes. Rationalize labeling. Make it so inputs are consistent for the same parameter in different places *E.G. the Master Tempo and Tempo Automaton have completely different input/display conventions right now. Stop having conflicting pitch bend/mod wheel lanes in both the note lanes and outside in the arrange view- make it so they are the same data, and editing one affects the other.

Issue4- SEQUENCING/TRACK ORGANIZING/TOOLS
There have been some advances recently, but still a lot of work to do.

Issue5- CUSTOMIZABILITY
Farily self-evident. Ability to rearrange the layout of windows and controls. Visualization options, etc.

Positive Point - INTUITIVE, FUN ROUTING IN RACK
This is the one point where Reason feels superior to the competition. Making FX racks the way you want and layering instruments the way you want is easy and FUN.

[Loque]

Use the competition/competitors if you are not satisafied.

[chaosroyale]

"Reason - Why improve it? Just use something else"

That kind of thinking will put Reason Studios out of business.

Use the competition/competitors if you are not satisafied.

[Loque]

"Reason - Why improve it? Just use something else"

That kind of thinking will put Reason Studios out of business.

Use the competition/competitors if you are not satisafied.

Who cares? If they dont do the right thing, they gonna go down. Plenty of other choices to make music.

I, personally, can make music in Reason. Sure, i want to have some improvements, but I CAN MAKE MUSIC IN REASON. And, i am serious, if it wouldnt work for me, i would choose a different DAW. And i tried several, and hated most of them. Only Live clicked with me, so if i might leave Reason at some point i am not satisifed, i gonna check Live. In the meantime, i contact the support directly or just make music.

[chaosroyale]

I care, because that Rack paradigm has inspired some really cool music and I would much prefer it to survive. Unfortunately, at the moment, I think Reason the DAW doesn't have a future in the marketplace.

"Reason - Why improve it? Just use something else"

That kind of thinking will put Reason Studios out of business.

Who cares? If they dont do the right thing, they gonna go down. Plenty of other choices to make music.

I, personally, can make music in Reason. Sure, i want to have some improvements, but I CAN MAKE MUSIC IN REASON. And, i am serious, if it wouldnt work for me, i would choose a different DAW. And i tried several, and hated most of them. Only Live clicked with me, so if i might leave Reason at some point i am not satisifed, i gonna check Live. In the meantime, i contact the support directly or just make music.

[Steedus]

For Issue 1, are you using a Mac? If yes, try running Reason in Low Resolution mode. It makes scrolling, and moving windows smoother. Unfortunately it's a necessity if using a Mac with Retina display.

[Benedict]

People have been saying Reason will die because it doesn't have some thing that other DAW does for about 20 years.

Reason is still here and the fact they just attracted investors, means that it is worth something in the marketplace.

Does Reason have things that could be different? Sure. But exactly the same could be said about any/every product.

But the moment you start changing a product, it is no longer what it was. It is a new thing. Easy to say "but it sucks and needs to be different" but is different better?

If Subtractor had a new audio engine (which Props could do) then it would no longer sound like Sub. A core promise from Reson was that Reason 256 would open Reason 1 files and play then exactly as they were made. So far that has been held true. Changing Sub would break my whole back catalog. Ok so maybe they could put in a new engine and a switch but once they do that, they might as well build a new instrument. Sub is beautiful as it is. If you don't love it for what it is, the world is swimming in synths with that formulaic "perfect" sound.

Yes, there are some inconsistencies with labeling. Automating a fader so 734 is 0db is mighty odd when it could read 0db. This is where my Nektar P6 has been useful as I can see when a fader is at -6db under automation.

Typing in values, ok maybe. But only so long as it is seamless, as it doesn't add layers of windows & menus that might seem cool to the tech-obsessed but make the job harder on a day to day basis.

I love Reason's simple & clear Sequencer. It is a major strength for me. Not because I am lazy or incompetent, simply because the clean system represents how music works far better than layers of menus & oddities that only suit certain people. This is a personal choice but the very reason I choose Reason over everything else. Changing it might suit you but at my expense when those things are done in ways that you want already in other DAWs (and I choose not to use them).

A new Combi would be nice. How easily it can be drag & drop matrixing I don't know as VST parameters are not always as clearly defined as those on an RE. As a matter of interest, where Europa has drag patching, mostly I use the old system. I am not opposed to drag - it seems to work nicely in Surge & Bitwig, just the Thor style matrix is the best I have ever used in 30 years and is fast if the parameters are logically arranged).

GUI changes, Um, ok if you want em. I loathe em. A great GUI doesn't need to change. If you want black it is there. I am not opposed but that is Dev time that could go to far more useful things as the color of a knob doesn't change how anything works (but can make it far harder to use).

You seem to like the Rack but not the Seq, did you not note that Reason now comes as a VST so you can go to Reaper or Studio One and have everything you want. Everyone wins.

[selig]

I totally appreciate hearing the opinion of someone coming back to Reason after a time away. It's helpful to put things in perspective IMO.
Just wanted to add something positive!

[Benedict]

Seeing it was a negative post from the get go, or at least one where the OP put his opinions forward in a negative slant - why can't they do what he wants them to do (even tho he admits he is not using the software) I think that responses have been pretty even.

I appreciate that he has an opinion. I put a lot of time into discussing that with him, pretty well point by point (assuming he ever comes back and this wasn't wrathful grape dropping). Surely that time should be viewed positively? Indicating otherwise seems less than positive in itself. Or that is IMO anyway.

I very much fear we are looking at a world that claims equality for all but only for those who conform to an unwritten and shifting code (or at least those who spout anti-Trump bile that will only lead us to worse).

[TritoneAddiction]

More color schemes would be nice yes.
Dragging things around can some times be slow I agree. Like when you're scrolling on the back of the rack, trying to connect wires from one place to another.

But for the most part I like things the way they are in Reason.
For me the automation in Reason is great. It's so simple to just right click on whatever knob you want to automate. And it's consistent. I personally hate the automation list they have in Reaper. Gives me a headache. I hope they never go down that route. I've watched a couple of videos on automation in Reaper and while there are many options and ways to do things it also seems bloated and messy. Before I moved to Reason (many years ago) I worked in Reaper and I prefer the overall feeling of Reason. And Reasons automation is a big part of that.

I don't think they should change old devices like Subtractor. Let Subtractor be Subtractor. I prefer the way they do things now, making new devices instead of updating the old ones. I don't mind if the new ones look different from the earlier ones.
I agree the MClass stuff is pretty bad. The MClass EQ I find pretty horrible. But like I said instead of updating them I'd prefer they added new devices. They should have add something like GQ-7 as a standard EQ a long time ago.

I know lots of people want a better combinator. Personally I couldn't care less. I've always disliked using the combinator. I only use it when I need to save a chain of instruments/effects. But I hate looking at that big uggly blob and I never assign anything to the available knobs. Adding more features won't change a thing for me. it will just add more clutter.

It's easy to think changes will always be better for everyone. The more the better right? But sometimes it can do more damage than good depending on how the changes are inplemented. There's no one way that fits all.
Overall I like the way Reason works. It may lack in some areas. But the most important aspects are there. It feels inspiring and fun to use. I've seen most other DAWs and honestly the way they look I find pretty uninspiring.

[chaosroyale]

Some good points in the replies - but also some false dichotemies.

The first reply is always "use something else" - which is fair enough, but pessimistic.

As for "use the Rack in another DAW" - I totally get where you are coming from, but the plugin cannot use VSTs in the rack or easily integrate sends and loops with other channels. I don't think the Reason devices alone are worth using in another DAW. It is the rack "paradigm" and unlimited flexibility that I think is the strong point of Reason, not the devices.

The second reply is always "Changing Reason would make it not Reason", or something about backwards compatibility.

The point about backwards compatibility is simply false. The RV7000mkii can load all RV7000 patches. A Subtractor with an oversample switch could load Subtractor Patches. Furthermore, you already have to use older versions for compatibility, because Line6 was removed. So lets update and move on. Stop living in the past.

If Reason did not add new ideas, we would have none of these features;
Audio channels
The SSL Mixer
VST

This makes me want to ask - people who don't want Reason to change..what DO you want to be upgraded in Reason? What upgrades in your opinion, would not "change" Reason?

Finally, as for the combinator - If you do not like combinators in the first place, then upgrading it makes no difference to you, right? My suggestions would actually help you reduce clutter, because you would be able to remove unwanted devices from your menyu and not waste time loading them. The new combinator would be customizable with only as few or as many controls as you need.

[chaosroyale]

Thanks for the advice, but I am using a powerful PC. I was just making a comparison to the competing DAWs.

For Issue 1, are you using a Mac? If yes, try running Reason in Low Resolution mode. It makes scrolling, and moving windows smoother. Unfortunately it's a necessity if using a Mac with Retina display.

[Jmax]

On a side note, I wish Studio One 4 had the automation simplicity as Reason. In Studio One 4 it's really hard to edit automation, to even separate a line of automation and work on it. Like why??? Reason is so simple.

[Periwinkle]

I personally came back to Reason after many years away. I dropped quite a lot of money on bits and pieces. Maybe it was nostalgia. There are certainly things in Reason that are good, but in the end it just falls down on so many fundamentals. Yes it’s possible to make good music with Reason, but often it’s just such an unnecessarily bloody painful process. Unfortunately, the devs seem determined to pile more and more bells and whistles on a fundamentally flawed foundation. I recently made the decision to return to Logic Pro, and (particularly after the recent free update) the difference is like night and day. I’m afraid to say that in its present form I can’t see Reason remaining commercially viable in the future. Who knows, maybe it could become a free open source DAW in the future.

[Oquasec]

The Reason I don't bag on this, me of all people not bagging on reason ever, is because it's not anything else on the market.
It's a daw that's a plugin. It's a daw that can use samplerates for the rest of that shit.
---
It's a synth plugin house.
It's a buncha mpcs.
It's an SSL.
It's analog goodness.
---
It will never be like Cubase or FLS. Ever. and that's why I still use it to this day without quitting.

[ab459]

Issue 2 - OUTDATED DEVICES
Horrible aliasing on Subtractor. Hi cut and/or aliasing on other devices. Old and new device UI's look and behave very differently, it kind of spoils the intuitive interface. Often the old devices have much better-planned designs, just small cramped UIs.

Do not touch Subtractor sound, PLEASE. As well aliasing - which can be a FEATURE in right arms.
Do not need to make all synths sterile and equal. There is a ocean of other soft synths if need.

Added: After such wishes, the CPU meter begins to show 3 bricks at almost empty place. And then the program is criticized as unusable. Circle closed.

[Loque]

Issue 2 - OUTDATED DEVICES
Horrible aliasing on Subtractor. Hi cut and/or aliasing on other devices. Old and new device UI's look and behave very differently, it kind of spoils the intuitive interface. Often the old devices have much better-planned designs, just small cramped UIs.

Do not touch Subtractor sound, PLEASE. As well aliasing - which can be a FEATURE in right arms.
Do not need to make all synths sterile and equal. There is a ocean of other soft synths if need.

Added: After such wishes, the CPU meter begins to show 3 bricks at almost empty place. And then the program is criticized as unusable. Circle closed.

[BedsitAudio]

I appreciate that you put a lot of thought into this post, chaosroyale - but as with most of these "doom" posts, it is comparing one DAW with the entirety of the competition, it seems. And it's also very solipsistic.

"Unfortunately, at the moment, I think Reason the DAW doesn't have a future in the marketplace."
Thank you for your market analysis.


Issue 1 - Speed:

I don't really experience what you describe, at all. I just don't. So maybe it's your computer?

Issue 2 - Outdated devices

The oldest synth in the arsenal being "outdated" is a given. It's 20 years old. But it can't be changed, it needs to be what it is for compatibility reasons. You have several other, newer synths to use in its place. Learn to use them - I suspect you might not be versed in the operation of Europa, if you've not used Reason for a while. Don't blame your shortcomings on 20 year old devices. But high res UI elements are expected and anticipated, yes.

If aliasing is an issue for you, have you tried rendering in 96 kHz?

Issue 3 - Outdated automation

You are mixing several interaction issues in this post, I agree that keyboard input of values would be useful. But Reason's approach to automation is extremely quick and agile if one knows how to use it. Having automation in clips that can be moved, resized, time-stretched and reversed is extremely clever.

Issue 4 - Outdated sequencing/Track organizing

You're not even bothering to make a point here, so I can't refute it.

Issue 5 - Customizability

Yes, the real issue that really puts Reason behind the competition and will ensure Reason doesn't have a future in the market place, unlike all the other DAWs which you can skin.

Here's an idea - leave the UI design to professionals. "Choice of transport controls" really? Which one would you leave out? The rec button?

---

Here's an idea. Spend some time re-learning current Reason. Realise what its strengths are. And make your personal choice an informed one.

For me personally, Reason has a really fast, quality workflow. I love the rack idiom, and hate pop up windows. I love that Reason comes with so many quality devices. I don't really care that it doesn't have the exact same features as *all* of the competitors - in fact, I rather cherish it.

[chaosroyale]

Issue 1 - Speed:
I don't really experience what you describe, at all. I just don't. So maybe it's your computer?

I have a pretty good PC. I did a quick experiment to check: Loading time on my PC, from the same SSD, all the same VSTs etc.

Reaper: 1.8 seconds.

Bitwig: 9.5 seconds.

Reason: 30 seconds.

Scrolling seeming jerky and slow is very much subjective, I understand, but I am pretty sure the screen operations are slower and less smooth on Reason than on Reaper or Bitwig. Apparently this is such an issue on Mac that the official workaround is to use lo-res mode.

The oldest synth in the arsenal being "outdated" is a given. It's 20 years old. But it can't be changed, it needs to be what it is for compatibility reasons. You have several other, newer synths to use in its place. Learn to use them - I suspect you might not be versed in the operation of Europa, if you've not used Reason for a while. Don't blame your shortcomings on 20 year old devices.

I am not only talking about Subtractor. The sampler has never been updated and is really showing it. Thor has never been updated. etc etc. I already dealt with compatibility in my above post.

Europa is not a substitute for Subtractor. One is a (very well-designed and easy to use) virtual analog, one is a (very well-designed and easy to use) wavetable synth.

High-quality options would not break compatibility or change anything about workflow. As for rendering at a higher rate, that will affect things like feedback loops and so on, as well as having a higher CPU overhead for every device, not only for a particular instrument.

Having automation in clips that can be moved, resized, time-stretched and reversed is extremely clever.

This is pretty standard stuff, and the minimum I would expect from a modern DAW.

Here's an idea - leave the UI design to professionals. "Choice of transport controls" really? Which one would you leave out? The rec button?

haha no I don't mean individual controls, I mean the actual layouts of the tool bars, visualization, etc. The current layout of the transport bar and the groove/metronome controls etc is terrible and that's been quite a common opinion since it was introduced. Oh god and the browser..

Personally, I don't care about "skins" but the kids do so I included it for that reason. More color choices would be welcome tho.

Here's an idea. Spend some time re-learning current Reason. Realise what its strengths are. And make your personal choice an informed one.

Well..I have been using Reason professionally since about 2003 until early 2020. I know it pretty well. I've mixed and produced commercial albums in it. I love the rack paradigm, which is why I still bother to use it at all. After not touching it for a month or 2, I came back and really noticed how much I have to "workaround" things on Reason.

Some people seem to think I am a Reason hater, when the opposite is true. I think it has some really great characteristics, and don't want it to get left behind.

(edits for simplicity)

[chaosroyale]

I said antialiasing option.

Do not touch Subtractor sound, PLEASE. As well aliasing - which can be a FEATURE in right arms.
Do not need to make all synths sterile and equal. There is a ocean of other soft synths if need.

Added: After such wishes, the CPU meter begins to show 3 bricks at almost empty place. And then the program is criticized as unusable. Circle closed.

[BedsitAudio]

Yeah I'm gonna be a dick again...I have been using Reason professionally since about 2003 until early 2020. I know it pretty well. I've mixed and produced commercial albums in it. I love the rack paradigm, which is why I still bother to use it at all. After not touching it for a month or 2, I came back and really noticed how much I have to "workaround" things on Reason.

Some people seem to think I am a Reason hater, when the opposite is true. I think it has some really great characteristics, and don't want it to get left behind.

Giving us a context for your Reason usage and experience isn't "being a dick" at all. In your OP, you didn't really let us know that your "Reason pause" was more like two months. If you are making money using Reason, well, great for you! But that doesn't validate your (rather poorly expressed) opinions. This post of yours doesn't reflect well on your professionalism.

[zoidkirb]

Let's wait and see what the supposed forthcoming hd update brings. It may address a lot of the issues in point 1.

2, we got an update to Subtractor, it's called Monotone. And Europa replaces Thor as the flagship synth. I can't see them updating the old devices but I agree an optional 2x oversample button or some visual tweak would be nice.

3 I dunno about outdated automation. It could be better but like anything but I find it a strength for Reason. If they could borrow Live's auto shape draw, and Cubase's range editing it would be close to perfect.

4 yes absolutely. The organisation in Reason is a chore. Folders, plus the ability to completely hide tracks/folders just like in Cubase is all it needs really. It's not that its unworkable now, but once projects get over a certain size things can spiral out of control if you're not vigilant.

Customization, eh I don't care really. Not against the idea. Hopefully the hd update could facilitate this?

Positive point - yes the fun intuitive routing in the rack is what brought me and kept me with Reason. Let's make that more intuitive by giving us midi cables, multiple cv outs from the same source (like complex-1 and all the other virtual modular synths) and foldable player devices in line with every other rack device.

[chaosroyale]

Let's wait and see what the supposed forthcoming hd update brings. It may address a lot of the issues in point 1.

This is actually a really good point. If I was gonna over-dramatize I would say maybe a crucial point for the future of Reason.

2, we got an update to Subtractor, it's called Monotone.

Blasphemy!! I bet you put the milk in your tea first too!

[zoidkirb]

Let's wait and see what the supposed forthcoming hd update brings. It may address a lot of the issues in point 1.

This is actually a really good point. If I was gonna over-dramatize I would say maybe a crucial point for the future of Reason.

2, we got an update to Subtractor, it's called Monotone.

Blasphemy!! I bet you put the milk in your tea first too!

Haha actually no milk, I'm on the herbal tea these days.
Ok sure Monotone isn't really a replacement as far as old school Reasoners are concerned, but I think it's a replacement in a more streamlined environment where Monotone is 'here is your bass synth'. Subtractor in name sounds like a bass synth (and it does a good job) but in reality it's actually a bit of a Swiss army knife with it's multiple waveforms and lite FM functions.

[Jackjackdaw]

I dont think the stock devices have anything to do with it. There have been awesome new devices coming all the time. (I'm crying out for a NN19 replacement though!)

HD graphics, VST 3 support, multi timbral midi in the Rack plugin, 32bit fp audio , these are the main competitive issues.

Then its workflow things like track folding, some sequencer stuff, browser stuff etc. Core improvements to satisfy existing users.

I dont think anything that messes with the virtual hardware paradigm is going to get any attention, cabling in the rack, updates to the SSL that break out of the hardware limitations etc, that's just how Reason rolls for better or worse.