CrimsonWarlock's new studio build

[visheshl]

Very nice
Connect everything and post a few pics of the finished studio

[crimsonwarlock]

I hooked up most of the equipment, just to find I have some serious noise issues. Probably because none of the wall sockets in the attic are grounded. So first thing tomorrow, I'm going to get a good ground connection implemented and hopefully get rid of the noise.

[selig]

I hooked up most of the equipment, just to find I have some serious noise issues. Probably because none of the wall sockets in the attic are grounded. So first thing tomorrow, I'm going to get a good ground connection implemented and hopefully get rid of the noise.

Aw man, that sucks. Clean power = clean sound, hope you can get it sorted. Worst case is you have to run a separate line for studio power, which is something I went ahead and did (with isolated ground outlets as an extra precaution) when doing my build. I was doing spray foam insulation so wouldn’t have an easy way of adding it later. BUT, if you do that, you’ll likely not have further issues, so maybe worst case turns into best case?

[crimsonwarlock]

Aw man, that sucks. Clean power = clean sound, hope you can get it sorted. Worst case is you have to run a separate line for studio power, which is something I went ahead and did (with isolated ground outlets as an extra precaution) when doing my build. I was doing spray foam insulation so wouldn’t have an easy way of adding it later. BUT, if you do that, you’ll likely not have further issues, so maybe worst case turns into best case?

Yeah, I was kinda expecting it, but still hoped it wouldn't be a problem. Getting a good grounded connection is no problem, though, as I started my professional life (long time ago) as an electrician. Just have to do a shop run today to get the needed materials and hopefully get it sorted before the end of the day.

[RobC]

To think that my less than 10 years old midi controllers die one-by-one... Even AKAI and KORG.

Yet you have working vintage gear? D :

[selig]

Aw man, that sucks. Clean power = clean sound, hope you can get it sorted. Worst case is you have to run a separate line for studio power, which is something I went ahead and did (with isolated ground outlets as an extra precaution) when doing my build. I was doing spray foam insulation so wouldn’t have an easy way of adding it later. BUT, if you do that, you’ll likely not have further issues, so maybe worst case turns into best case?

Yeah, I was kinda expecting it, but still hoped it wouldn't be a problem. Getting a good grounded connection is no problem, though, as I started my professional life (long time ago) as an electrician. Just have to do a shop run today to get the needed materials and hopefully get it sorted before the end of the day.

Now YOU’RE just bragging - this is one area I WISH I understood more. I probably know more than I think I know, having asked questions along the way when speaking to experienced studio wiring folks over the years. But I’d probably just electrocute myself if I actually tried to do any actual electrical work…

[crimsonwarlock]

Now YOU’RE just bragging

Touché

[crimsonwarlock]

Most of the studio is in place and up-and-running now. I'm still in the process of setting up all the internal signal routing inside Reason, to take advantage of the multiple IO that is available with the Scarlett 18i20.

So, some pictures of the new space:

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20230304_200453.jpg

[visheshl]

Congratulations dude...that looks amazing

[robussc]

Gorgeous!

[MuttReason]

Love the new setup.

How do you find looking at the Reason SSL mixer on that big monitor above the desk? I think my eyes would struggle looking at fine positions on individual SSL mixer knobs on a monitor that far away, even a large monitor. My eyes are my weak spot these days, I struggle to see detail unless on a big zoom setting with a 4k monitor and I’m close up.

[crimsonwarlock]

Congratulations dude...that looks amazing

Gorgeous!

Love the new setup.

Thanks guys. I'm thrilled how it turned out, given the limited space to cram everything into. It's a very inspirational space for me now, even more so than the previous studio room. Next up is calibrating my monitors for this room with SonarWorks. I'll post the measurements when it is done

How do you find looking at the Reason SSL mixer on that big monitor above the desk? I think my eyes would struggle looking at fine positions on individual SSL mixer knobs on a monitor that far away, even a large monitor. My eyes are my weak spot these days, I struggle to see detail unless on a big zoom setting with a 4k monitor and I’m close up.

I'm lucky to have excellent vision, no problems there. Although I do like the sharper graphics of R12

[crimsonwarlock]

Measurements and room correction are done. I'm happy with the results, especially as this room's sound comes pretty close to the previous room, which sounded great.

The most significant difference is in symmetry. With the different equipment left and right from the central position, a room is never acoustically symmetric. However, the new room's ceiling beams are positioned different left and right, resulting in slightly different positions of the acoustic panels. This shows in the measurements.

attic-studio.png

For comparison, here's the measurement graph of the previous room. Funny to see that, having preferable measurements, the previous room had a more prominent dip in the 300-500 Hz area.

studio-old.png

With the room being spaced far from optimal, and the positioning of the desk and resulting listening position go against all rules and sound advice (but were inevitable), it shows what a bunch of (cheap) acoustic panels can do for your room. These panels are by far the cheapest things in my studio, with the largest impact

[visheshl]

Awesome bro... Glad you got a great setup working with the acoustics well managed.
Congratulations

[Popey]

Looks fantastic. Glad you got it all up and running and look forward to hearing the fruits of your labour.

[moalla]

I‘m now as well in the process to rebuild my music space crimsonwarlock, i had never thought about room correction / analysis before. The last times it seems crazy for me, people who still have such big computer systems and controller collections here in the forum, using mostly some of the inexpensivest monitor speakers, but i reallize precise sounding enviroment has nothing to do with well made for music making. So how you would describe the sound of your Alesis M1 520 speakers and would them work with their bassereflex port at the back 10cm in front of a wall muted with 4cm thick pyramid foam crimson? (Just found cheap some used with broken caps diy service needed) At all does it need a specific meassure mikrophone for calibration at the end, I still have rode nt2a in my mic locker what has only a light high boost??? As software i would use REW what i read seems to be a good tool. But maybee I‘m looking for some Yamaha NX-E 400/800 passive speakers, with similiar drivers inside than your alesis ones !?

[selig]

Measurements and room correction are done. I'm happy with the results, especially as this room's sound comes pretty close to the previous room, which sounded great.

There must be a decent bit of smoothing going on with that response, I’ve never seen low end that flat a free of room modes.I see this fairly often btw!
Can you zoom in to the 20-400 range? Also, looks like things drop off extremely quickly below 60 Hz with 40 Hz (low E on bass guitar) down around 18 dB! How are you dealing with this? Have you considered a sub woofer?
I would guess the 3-400 Hz dip had to do with distance from the wall (SBIR)? Are you closer to the front wall with your monitors now than you were in your previous room?
Fun stuff, looking fantastic!

[crimsonwarlock]

Awesome bro... Glad you got a great setup working with the acoustics well managed.
Congratulations

Looks fantastic. Glad you got it all up and running and look forward to hearing the fruits of your labour.

Thanks guys, appreciate it

So how you would describe the sound of your Alesis M1 520 speakers and would them work with their bassereflex port at the back 10cm in front of a wall muted with 4cm thick pyramid foam crimson?

That is close to how mine are setup. They have switches on the back with specific settings for close-to-the-wall positioning. As they are near-fields, and I tend to monitor on rather low sound levels, they sound good enough. Especially with the SonarWorks correction in place.

There must be a decent bit of smoothing going on with that response, I’ve never seen low end that flat a free of room modes.I see this fairly often btw!

The absence of room-mode spikes is real. I also tested with a frequency sweep generator, and no spikes are standing out in the low frequencies.

Can you zoom in to the 20-400 range?

Unfortunately, the SonarWorks software has no zoom option.

Also, looks like things drop off extremely quickly below 60 Hz with 40 Hz (low E on bass guitar) down around 18 dB! How are you dealing with this? Have you considered a sub woofer?

The drop-off is exactly where the specs of the monitors say it is

My music is not bass-heavy, so far it worked out quite well for me. I wouldn't mind adding a sub-woofer, but currently the funds are not there (and I want a new desk first ).

I would guess the 3-400 Hz dip had to do with distance from the wall (SBIR)? Are you closer to the front wall with your monitors now than you were in your previous room?

That could be it. The distance to the wall is roughly the same as before, but the dip is there in both settings, just different. My guess is: The difference comes from not having the side-walls as close as they were before and not being vertical now. The sides are now the angled ceiling, going down almost to floor level.

Fun stuff, looking fantastic!

Thanks

[RobC]

What kind of microphone stand do you have?

I'm looking for a standing one (performance-wise) - I saw two types: one that's just a straight stick, and the other that has an additional arm. Hopefully, it's optional, cause I'd like some flexibility - in that case, the one with the arm would be better.

The setup would be a stand, a shield, and the NT1, of course.

[selig]

The absence of room-mode spikes is real. I also tested with a frequency sweep generator, and no spikes are standing out in the low frequencies.

I’m not seeing nearly enough detail to show that. I’ve never seen a room without mode issues, even after treatments. Again, it’s probably just the smoothing amount on the display, and unlikely to be a control for this in such a simple package.
Even some of the better rooms don’t have such a flat response, ±6 dB is super impressive - but again, it’s probably not showing what is actually going on.

I’d use REW (free) to see what’s REALLY going on…you’d gain the ability to change smoothing and to zoom in on the critical 20-200 Hz range where room modes wreak the most havoc.

[crimsonwarlock]

What kind of microphone stand do you have?

It's one with the additional boom, but it is standing almost straight up. It is also a pretty heavy one, and I suggest going for the heavy stuff as it is much more robust. I have this one for over 25 years now, and it still rock-solid. Good mike stands can be expensive, but it is completely worth it, especially for these larger mikes.

I took another picture for you:

20230308_161303.jpg

[crimsonwarlock]

The absence of room-mode spikes is real. I also tested with a frequency sweep generator, and no spikes are standing out in the low frequencies.

I’m not seeing nearly enough detail to show that. I’ve never seen a room without mode issues, even after treatments. Again, it’s probably just the smoothing amount on the display, and unlikely to be a control for this in such a simple package.
Even some of the better rooms don’t have such a flat response, ±6 dB is super impressive - but again, it’s probably not showing what is actually going on.

I’d use REW (free) to see what’s REALLY going on…you’d gain the ability to change smoothing and to zoom in on the critical 20-200 Hz range where room modes wreak the most havoc.

I do agree that the graphic is most likely not showing everything. However, in the end, what matters is what we can hear (at least in my opinion). Slowly sweeping the frequency band at listening levels gives a clear representation of what each frequency is doing in the room. It would be a strange coincidence that there is a spike in the room-modes that corresponds with a dip in my hearing

In the end, I simply don't obsess about these things. Getting a usable frequency response in rooms like this is always hit-and-miss, and getting it where it is now, is plenty sufficient for my requirements. After all, it is a hobby

By the way, getting the response within ±6 dB is indeed impressive, but the sound stage at my listening position (with reference tracks) also sounds quite impressive, so there's that. We will have to see how that translates to resulting mixes.

[selig]

I’m not seeing nearly enough detail to show that. I’ve never seen a room without mode issues, even after treatments. Again, it’s probably just the smoothing amount on the display, and unlikely to be a control for this in such a simple package.
Even some of the better rooms don’t have such a flat response, ±6 dB is super impressive - but again, it’s probably not showing what is actually going on.

I’d use REW (free) to see what’s REALLY going on…you’d gain the ability to change smoothing and to zoom in on the critical 20-200 Hz range where room modes wreak the most havoc.

I do agree that the graphic is most likely not showing everything. However, in the end, what matters is what we can hear (at least in my opinion). Slowly sweeping the frequency band at listening levels gives a clear representation of what each frequency is doing in the room. It would be a strange coincidence that there is a spike in the room-modes that corresponds with a dip in my hearing

In the end, I simply don't obsess about these things. Getting a usable frequency response in rooms like this is always hit-and-miss, and getting it where it is now, is plenty sufficient for my requirements. After all, it is a hobby

By the way, getting the response within ±6 dB is indeed impressive, but the sound stage at my listening position (with reference tracks) also sounds quite impressive, so there's that. We will have to see how that translates to resulting mixes.

I know this is more than you want to hear, or need to hear - I just wanted to complete the subject as it were (ignore the old man ranting in the back of the room).

OK assuming all this is accurate and your room really is within ±6, then we move on to the time domain - what does the waterfall response look like? This will reveal issues that cannot be viewed on a simple frequency response plot. This is why a "flat" room can still not have tight bass response, something I couldn't get my head around for years as I worked around Nashville in various studios from world class to "just OK". I could hear some rooms with fairly flat response were more boomy than others with similar response, and wondered how that could be. I finally learned it was the time domain in the low end that was messing with things, with certain notes ringing out that you don't hear when you run a tone (and sweep it) in a room.

[crimsonwarlock]

I know this is more than you want to hear, or need to hear - I just wanted to complete the subject as it were (ignore the old man ranting in the back of the room).

Don't hold back Giles, your input is always much appreciated as your knowledge regarding these things is obvious. It just makes this topic more valuable to others

OK assuming all this is accurate and your room really is within ±6, then we move on to the time domain - what does the waterfall response look like? This will reveal issues that cannot be viewed on a simple frequency response plot. This is why a "flat" room can still not have tight bass response, something I couldn't get my head around for years as I worked around Nashville in various studios from world class to "just OK". I could hear some rooms with fairly flat response were more boomy than others with similar response, and wondered how that could be. I finally learned it was the time domain in the low end that was messing with things, with certain notes ringing out that you don't hear when you run a tone (and sweep it) in a room.

Turning a rather small attic room with slanted ceilings will always be a big compromise. I don't have any illusions about what is possible to achieve

Having said that, I'm just trying to make the best of it with the tools available. As long as I don't have any strange spikes in the spectrum, as a result of having quite a bit of absorption in the room, I'm a happy camper. As I said before, I don't obsess over these things. After treatment and correction, it basically comes down to listening to a lot of reference tracks and "learn" how the room's frequency response (and the monitors) translate to other systems. If I can come somewhat close to a flat response, that just makes learning the room's response that much easier.

But again, your input is always welcome (and I'm old and sometimes ranting as well)

[visheshl]

My thoughts on mixes :

all i do is check my mix in the car. If it sounds good in the car, it is good.

Also nowadays, the era of listening to music on big expensive hifi systems is gone, most people are consuming music on mobile phones with teeny tiny earphones or headphones, or laptop speakers or bluetooth speakers....very few audiophile types out there who would prefer to listen to your track uncompressed on a proper home system and obsess over sonic quality and the overall mix. Most people are satisfied if it sounds good enough on their earphones.

So unless your mixes are going to be played at bars or gigs etc with big audio systems, i dont see too much of a point obsessing over the mix.

If it sounds good on an average mobile phone headphones, its ok...i think.

I know selig would be infuriated by this...but it is what i think man