How to find a phase problem ? if so !

[Uman's]

Hi all !

As a reminder, I play electronic music only. No addition of real external instruments or voices.

In fact, I rework on songs that caused me some problems at the time of their creation.
In each case, when some instruments play together there is a decrease in their volume.

The previous song had problems with compression and limiter settings. Resolute.
More anciently, it was by lowering the level of the bass instrument in the mixer, that the other instruments were revealed.

Currently, the song that I have a problem with does not have any compressor or limiter. (with or not same problem !)
Even though I set the levels in the mixer, I still have a few instruments that lose level so early that they play together.

How do I proceed please? I guess this time I have a problem with the phases of my instruments.
Should I start by putting the conflicting instruments in mono?

Thank you for your suggestions.

[jam-s]

Try pressing the inv button on some of the mixer channels of those clashing instruments and see *ehem* listen if this helps.

[selig]

Polarity issues are rare, like when a microphone is wired differently than other microphones. That said, in some cases with acoustic instruments, a polarity flip can improve things, mostly on instruments with a fundamental below 200Hz like snare/toms/kick. This works because the relationship between the different microphones is 100% fixed, unlike electronic instruments.
With electronic instruments there are all sorts of random elements causing things to never have a truly fixed relationship. You would need sample accurate timing and absolutely no sonic variations for this to work, meaning no alt samples on drums, key synced oscillators on all synths, etc,
But even then, be aware that even if flipping the polarity on one track improves one thing, it can also have an adverse effect on something else. So you end up doing s ‘whack-a-mole’ dance trying to find a combination that works (this happens with drums too, the struggle is real!).
What is needed IMO is an accurate analysis of the actual issue you’re having, THEN possible solutions can be discussed.

[Uman's]

Thanks for help guys.

Try pressing the inv button on some of the mixer channels of those clashing instruments and see *ehem* listen if this helps.

The Inv button in any case do the same with volume variation on other instruments.

]But even then, be aware that even if flipping the polarity on one track improves one thing, it can also have an adverse effect on something else. So you end up doing s ‘whack-a-mole’ dance trying to find a combination that works (this happens with drums too, the struggle is real!).

That is exactly what is happening ! It's a real headache !

What is needed IMO is an accurate analysis of the actual issue you’re having, THEN possible solutions can be discussed.

Sorry but what is "Imo" ?

I tried "inv button", changing phase buttons of synths, Mono for all outs, changing wave of oscillators...
Nothing changed in good conditions !
I settle the conflict on two instruments, it is then other instruments that are then affected by this pumping effect.
(Of overwritten volume.)

I think I will try to find a solution by removing all the effects of each instrument to leave with fewer elements.

Then I would take each conflicting machine to try to change the instrument. I can even try several replacement machines.
I see no other way to look for a reason for my concern.

[tomusurp]

It doesn't sound like phase cancellation. That's really a minor issue and mostly for low frequencies like a sub or bass.

It just sounds like frequencies are competing with one another. Do you know how to mix? One of the most important aspects of mixing in my opinion is giving as much frequency space as possible to each synth. For example, sub bass 150hz and below, mid bass 200-300 hz, mid frequency synth 350-700hz, high frequency sounds 1K+. These are just example numbers, it could be slightly different.

And some of these frequencies can clash slightly which actually produces an enjoyable combination. The point is not to have each interfere with each other too much. This is a part of equalization and one of most important in mixing.

[Uman's]

Hi Tomeo,

I think you raise an important problem that is revealed in my compositions.

I use a lot of instruments with close frequencies.
My particular style requires me to use many layers.
I've always had a hard time choosing my instruments logically.

I've been composing on Reason since version 2.5 and although I haven't changed my production habits,
it's only on a few songs in particular that I encounter the problem we're talking about.

Today's song uses a bass and sub, several accompanying instruments that respond to each other and several main instruments.
Of course, if I reduce the number of instruments that play, the end result no longer makes sense.

At first, I also thought that the pumping phenomenon could come from an overlap of frequencies.
I had started to reduce the frequency bands of each instrument without going
any further in the process because I did not observe any obvious change.

I take note to come back to it now that your comment makes me tilt. I felt so much until then that I was having a phase problem.

thx

[selig]

Thanks for help guys.

Try pressing the inv button on some of the mixer channels of those clashing instruments and see *ehem* listen if this helps.

The Inv button in any case do the same with volume variation on other instruments.

]But even then, be aware that even if flipping the polarity on one track improves one thing, it can also have an adverse effect on something else. So you end up doing s ‘whack-a-mole’ dance trying to find a combination that works (this happens with drums too, the struggle is real!).

That is exactly what is happening ! It's a real headache !

What is needed IMO is an accurate analysis of the actual issue you’re having, THEN possible solutions can be discussed.

Sorry but what is "Imo" ?

I tried "inv button", changing phase buttons of synths, Mono for all outs, changing wave of oscillators...
Nothing changed in good conditions !
I settle the conflict on two instruments, it is then other instruments that are then affected by this pumping effect.
(Of overwritten volume.)

I think I will try to find a solution by removing all the effects of each instrument to leave with fewer elements.

Then I would take each conflicting machine to try to change the instrument. I can even try several replacement machines.
I see no other way to look for a reason for my concern.

All I mean is you need to be sure what the problem is before you can find the best solution. Which translates to me not being able to help you 100% without knowing what is causing the problem you’re experiencing.
Bottom line, we would have to seen/hear the exact issue before solving it. Before then, all we can do is guess the cause and offer a number of possible solutions all which may not be ‘solutions' for the actual issue. As it is we are guessing about the cause of an issue we cannot actually hear rather than offering viable solutions to the problem at hand.

[bxbrkrz]

If you are using hardware mostly, flip the connections around on your mixing desk. It is hard to know how to help, but you could start trouble shooting by elimination. Anything between the source and the input channel. You have to make a check list and repeat the procedure. Is your music a combination between hardware and Reason?

Also is this a 'new' event? Was your craft free from phase issues, up until something you added, or changed recently?

So many questions

[Uman's]

All I mean is you need to be sure what the problem is before you can find the best solution. Which translates to me not being able to help you 100% without knowing what is causing the problem you’re experiencing.
Bottom line, we would have to seen/hear the exact issue before solving it. Before then, all we can do is guess the cause and offer a number of possible solutions all which may not be ‘solutions' for the actual issue. As it is we are guessing about the cause of an issue we cannot actually hear rather than offering viable solutions to the problem at hand.

I was looking through this subject to take your ideas to find the source of my problem.
I'm not quite at the stage yet asking for solutions !

But it will probably come !

If you are using hardware mostly, flip the connections around on your mixing desk.

Hardware or software ?
I use only Reason software and his instruments.

As it is we are guessing about the cause of an issue we cannot actually hear rather than offering viable solutions to the problem at hand.

You are right.
It is also a challenge for me to find the source of the problem and to be able to solve it.
But until then I had failed in my research!

All the suggestions in this topic have been helpful to me.

I know now, that the problem is probably not about phase, but about frequency overlap that cause a pumping effect .

At the moment, I am going to try to reduce the frequencies panel of my instruments and make them coexist.

You have all given me, the possibilities for the reasons of this pumping. It's up to me to target it.
In any case, I will get back to you for the solutions. Thank you again.

[bxbrkrz]

All I mean is you need to be sure what the problem is before you can find the best solution. Which translates to me not being able to help you 100% without knowing what is causing the problem you’re experiencing.
Bottom line, we would have to seen/hear the exact issue before solving it. Before then, all we can do is guess the cause and offer a number of possible solutions all which may not be ‘solutions' for the actual issue. As it is we are guessing about the cause of an issue we cannot actually hear rather than offering viable solutions to the problem at hand.

I was looking through this subject to take your ideas to find the source of my problem.
I'm not quite at the stage yet asking for solutions !

But it will probably come !

If you are using hardware mostly, flip the connections around on your mixing desk.

Hardware or software ?
I use only Reason software and his instruments.

As it is we are guessing about the cause of an issue we cannot actually hear rather than offering viable solutions to the problem at hand.

You are right.
It is also a challenge for me to find the source of the problem and to be able to solve it.
But until then I had failed in my research!

All the suggestions in this topic have been helpful to me.

I know now, that the problem is probably not about phase, but about frequency overlap that cause a pumping effect .

At the moment, I am going to try to reduce the frequencies panel of my instruments and make them coexist.

You have all given me, the possibilities for the reasons of this pumping. It's up to me to target it.
In any case, I will get back to you for the solutions. Thank you again.

Reason Software only. I understand.
Are you using Scream 4 in any of the projects with the issues?

[Uman's]

Yes ! many scream4 ! Why ?
I used 5 on 11 instruments !!!

I just spent my evening reducing the frequency bands of my instruments !

It's even worse! pumping takes place everywhere, a horror.
What is happening is also that the dynamic has taken a big hit. It's ugly.

Limit I want to give up. It's a shame, I find this song quite original.

Do you want to listen to it? I'm a little afraid to make you listen to it, I'm not a master of composition either.

EDIT post : The guilty is ...................

SCREAM 4 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I stopped the scream on the 5 instruments that carry it and the phenomenon disappeared !

How is it possible ?

It's a shame, it added so many values to these sounds.
It's not that bad in the sense that I could work these instruments in another way,
but I would like to understand what happens with the scream?

[boomer]

It is important tor remember that polarity and phase are two different things. Any time you mix two sound sources (unless they are identical) there will always be some phase cancellation and some addition. Assuming the same level for both signals, addition can only double the level but cancellation can cancel to infinity. This happens acoustically as well as electronically.

If you are dealing with instruments you cannot correct for phase at all frequencies at the same time.

[jam-s]

It's a known quirk of Scream 4 in tape mode that it causes phasing when mixed back with the original signal.

[crimsonwarlock]

It's a known quirk of Scream 4 in tape mode that it causes phasing when mixed back with the original signal.

I used 5 on 11 instruments !!!

Seems you are using it as a send-effect, which means you are mixing it with the original signal. From my perspective, effects like distortion, saturation, etc. are not suitable as send FX.

[Uman's]

It is important tor remember that polarity and phase are two different things. Any time you mix two sound sources (unless they are identical) there will always be some phase cancellation and some addition. Assuming the same level for both signals, addition can only double the level but cancellation can cancel to infinity. This happens acoustically as well as electronically.

If you are dealing with instruments you cannot correct for phase at all frequencies at the same time.

This is also a problem that I may encounter in my compositions.

It's a known quirk of Scream 4 in tape mode that it causes phasing when mixed back with the original signal.

Not all my Screams were set to "tape".
Yet by turning off all the screams, the phenomenon of pumping disappears.

And not only on those set in "tape".

Seems you are using it as a send-effect, which means you are mixing it with the original signal. From my perspective, effects like distortion, saturation, etc. are not suitable as send FX.

Each Scream I use in this song is placed in a combi of the instrument that corresponds to it.
In this song no Scream on a send-fx of the mixer.

I have another song where I used the Scream on several instruments from the send-fx of the mixer and it was not a problem.

[crimsonwarlock]

Each Scream I use in this song is placed in a combi of the instrument that corresponds to it.
In this song no Scream on a send-fx of the mixer.

But you state you are using 5 screams on 11 instruments, so maybe not a normal send, but you somehow do share screams between instruments, which implies you do some kind of mixing of the sending/returning signals. Using spiders for example is just the same as using a 'send' on a mixer.

Yet by turning off all the screams, the phenomenon of pumping disappears.

Seems clear that your problem is in the way you set up your screams across your instruments. I suggest giving each instrument its own scream, that will probably solve it.

[bxbrkrz]

Glad we could help.

[Uman's]

I love your image my friend. I even feel like you made it for me. Thank you.

This Scream must be renamed a ghost trip !

I suggest giving each instrument its own scream, that will probably solve it.

Reread me, i have a Scream on each instrument not in the mixer way.

I am happy to have joined your community. I was lost since "reason france" had closed. It's been a long time now.

[crimsonwarlock]

Reread me, i have a Scream on each instrument not in the mixer way.

So, how do you use only 5 Sream4s on 11 instruments, like you stated before?

Yes ! many scream4 ! Why ?
I used 5 on 11 instruments !!!

[Uman's]

Sorry,

I answered :

Each Scream I use in this song is placed in a combi of the instrument that corresponds to it.
In this song no Scream on a send-fx of the mixer.

As i told, 5 Scream on 5 instruments, but in a differentiated ways.
Each instrument has its own Scream.

[selig]

Fwiw, Tape on scream IS a compressor….and also fwiw, saturation/distortion is non-linear like dynamics are non-linear, so you ‘could’ get results similar to compression in some cases from some forms of saturation/distortion in some cases.