Advice for Finishing Songs... breaking out of the loop

[challism]

I always save all my projects (even if they are just 8-bar loops) in the hopes of finishing them some day. You will probably find that most musicians/producers have loads of unfinished songs/ideas. Even the Beatles had old, unfinished song ideas sitting around. That amazing masterpiece medley at the end of Abby Road was nothing more than bits and pieces the Beatles had been kicking around over the years and they finally decided to piece together (thankfully).

So.. my advice is to save everything, when you find that you are bored or out of ideas, revisit old projects... and try to piece them together, find complimenting A/B parts. Bounce some of your better ideas to audio files and put them on your phone, listen to them as you go about your day and listen for places where some of them could work together. Then, you are on your way to completing a track.

I'm curious to hear some advice from the RT userbase. What are your methods, tips and tricks for breaking out of the, what sometimes feels like, never-ending "new project" cycle and turning those 8-bar loops into songs?

[joeyluck]

So many of my "unfinished songs" become music for preshow/intermission, scene transitions, and underscoring in theatre. I've tried to get better at saving notes with songs, rather than just the date, which was all I attributed to Reason projects in the past lol. So then when a show calls for some "80's vibe" music, I'm not aimlessly opening projects until I find something.

So I guess my suggestion is that all the music you create doesn't need to be something you imagine hearing on the radio with a particular song structure and vocals. That's where I can get a bit caught up in considering something "finished". Because I am mostly exploring every time I write—never having anything in mind when I start writing.

Much of what you write can be music for a dance show, it can serve as starting point for music in a film or video game, etc. Keep making music and building your own little catalog. And definitely focus on making good notes—that's how you can be sure to make use of stuff you've written.

[BRIGGS]

Find an easy way to streamline the song finishing process. Reason makes this hard and messy, so I go with a minimal approach.

Mixing and arranging can be tedious drudgery. Find a way to make it fun, then stick with it.

I use a template that has a big chunk of the work already done.

[PhillipOrdonez]

Good point Joey about taking notes.

I use Notion to keep track of my projects. They are all titled with the date, the key, tempo and genre, and on Notion I keep track of the stage they are currently at or what needs to be done) (idea, arranging, mixing, mastering and done) this way I can do what I want whenever I feel like it.

Rendering to audio is also great too to avoid opening projects to you find something you want to work on.

If I don't like an idea I'll move on, I will delete it; if I like an idea I'll finish it pretty quickly.

[Billy+]

I mostly save just about every project and have done for 20 years, I've got old hard drives sat in a cupboard from old machines over the years with the intention to restore them but very rarely have as I've mostly given way to the notion of old stuff being part of the learning process and probably not entirely worth remembering, even stuff that I've shared with others but never published due to the feeling that "it's not finished"

I've gone from just creating as is to conforming to a formula and just about everything in between, I can spend weeks just trying to understand a new technique that I've heard or read about but ultimately doesn't help with that "finished feeling" but I never started to create music with any sense of publishing in mind music was something I listen to dance to but this crazy little piece of software came out that I just wanted to play with and required a different set of technical skills than my day job and I was just intrigued by it - yes that's right Reason Version 1.

Since then I've spent thousands of pounds and hours enjoying the creative process and the challenges of learning the tools and techniques that make up the sound tracks of life and enjoying the ride.

Anyway as for finishing - well some people are happy to hit 3 minutes and call it finished while others are simply enjoying the 16 bars they have written and I guess ultimately it comes down to your audience and what you want to achieve

For me personally having my wife grandchildren children friends and family appreciate what I've created is enough for me

[PhillipOrdonez]

In regards to tips on how to finish, or at least arrange a piece, I'll duplicate that 8 or 16 or 32 bars and start crafting the different sections by removing or adding stuff. My initial loop was the main part, and from that I'll do a breakdown.

Once the main part and the break are done, I'm certain there's going to be a finished piece, cause if those two work together, I can easily fill in the blanks.

[MrFigg]

when you find that you are bored or out of ideas,

Don’t think I’ve ever been.

[Billy+]

Use a reference track

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[crimsonwarlock]

One thing I sometimes do, to get ideas for a chord progression, I take the chords of an existing track and use those to create a new progression.

[pushedbutton]

Use blocks. Draw in a structure, something like Intro, Verse, Prechorus, Chorus, Verse, Chorus, Verse, Chorus, Bridge, Chorus, Outro. or whatever you feel like doing. That way you can keep an eye on the big picture without getting too bogged down by the little details and it's not too hard to restructure your song. You don't have to put every element of your song in blocks and you can overwrite anything in there with a new clip in the song window, for example, if you want to start adding strings and pads after the 1st verse you can just put them straight into the song. Blocks are great for keeping themes consistent through the song but they don't have to be used like that.

[Billy+]

Use blocks. Draw in a structure, something like Intro, Verse, Prechorus, Chorus, Verse, Chorus, Verse, Chorus, Bridge, Chorus, Outro. or whatever you feel like doing. That way you can keep an eye on the big picture without getting too bogged down by the little details and it's not too hard to restructure your song. You don't have to put every element of your song in blocks and you can overwrite anything in there with a new clip in the song window, for example, if you want to start adding strings and pads after the 1st verse you can just put them straight into the song. Blocks are great for keeping themes consistent through the song but they don't have to be used like that.

Blocks are very handy and you don't necessarily need to build your sections inside them as they work perfectly for loop markers (simply select the block and hit p to play that section looped)

IMG_2350.PNG (116.28 KiB) Viewed 2586 times

[challism]

when you find that you are bored or out of ideas,

Don’t think I’ve ever been.

Which is precisely why I still haven't gotten to any of my old projects!


But I plan on doing that someday.

[Jagwah]

James Bernard said way back in the day to save all of your work and I think that's an excellent idea.

I didn't have a huge problem with being stuck in the loop but I always got to parts in a song where I just had no idea where to go. Many good ideas went to waste. I used to think my issue was structure or maybe music theory.

It wasn't until I learnt about lyricism and how I can use it in my work before I felt like I was an actual musician. I worked quite hard at this and there was even a precise point where I finally understood it. The idea of lyricism is having a story or narrative in your art. For me that meant learning how to tell a story through musical instruments. It really took me to a new level and there is certainly no getting stuck in any Loops. My main issue now is getting bogged down in perfecting a song to a finished point. If anyone is interested in learning about it shoot me a message.

[deeplink]

Two ideas:

(1) To break-out of that 'stuck in a loop' within a session, use risers/downfilters, breakdowns etc. as placeholders. Something to assist getting your ear to wander on to what the next verse or section may sound like.

(2) Not every eight bar song file needs to turn into a song. To gain some residual value from all those incomplete songs, export the loops as samples, Rex the sounds and save the patches. Essentially create your own 'Sound Pack'. If you organize it well enough, it should become a wealthy pool of sounds to use or take inspiration from.

[Jagwah]

^^ Agreed on the risers, I used white noise sweeps a ton and still do. They can really help you transition to the next section which allows you to progress out of that loop.

[selig]

I've saved everything from 2003 in Reason, never gone back to old ideas because new ones get my attention.
As for breaking out of the loop, my approach for many years has been to avoid making that 'unbreakable' loop in the first place. I try to 'jam out' on an idea and get variations from the start. It's what I would call a more horizontal approach vs a vertical approach, building OUT first before building UP any one section if that makes sense. That way I only develop the ideas that are already doing what I want.

That said, there are SO many ways to work, and I work differently one different projects. I recently started a project by playing full length drum tracks on my vintage Gretsch kit, but I had a collaborator on that project and knew my collaborator would be able to 'create' from these tracks no problem (and he certainly did!).
I also agree with Joey that there are plenty of OTHER applications for your small fragments - everything doesn't HAVE to become a full length song for it to be viable and useful!

[TritoneAddiction]

I'm sure there are hundreds of tips and tricks on this topic. And I'm sure a lot of them are valid too. But in my own experience, unless there's enough motivation to put in the actual work it takes to finish a track it won't happen. I know it's a boring answer and probably not what most people want to hear, but I believe old fashioned discipline is what is required most of the time. Like most people I have an easy time starting a track, writing one or two parts. But after that discipline usually takes over to a large extent. For me making a track pretty much follow this pattern: Fun, fun, pain in the ass, and then fun again once the song is finished.

The only practical advice I have and use is to work in smaller chunks of time. That way when the easy part of writing is over, it doesn't feel like too big of a big task to finish the track.

[Aosta]

I have a horrendous amount of loop tracks ranging from 3 or 4 channels to pretty much finished tracks apart from the odd crash or sweep for transitions, my problem is the motivation to sequence it all out because the track is finished in my head.
I have been going in and recording the loops using a korg nano mixer thingy like jamming to mute/solo and level and I listen to them on the way to and from work to find a structure. I plan to take the wavs and just snip them quickly into a structure and layer stuff over the top where needed, I think this is the only way I can build songs by editing a 'live' performance so to speak.

[mcatalao]

Agreed. Save everything, as the "creative" juices are not always the same. Then when you're not so creative, you can enter into arranging and mixing mode and develop those ideas.

That being said, I wished reason had retrospective midi recording, as a lot of times I'm improvising at the piano and those ideas get lost in the ether if i didn't press record before. And it seems that when you do press record you're not so loose and things get out less natural!

[Fusion]

Agreed. Save everything, as the "creative" juices are not always the same. Then when you're not so creative, you can enter into arranging and mixing mode and develop those ideas.

That being said, I wished reason had retrospective midi recording, as a lot of times I'm improvising at the piano and those ideas get lost in the ether if i didn't press record before. And it seems that when you do press record you're not so loose and things get out less natural!

I also been waiting for this for a long time. Have requested this at viewtopic.php?f=6&t=7519957

please add a comment to the thread , so they know it's important.

[mcatalao]

I also been waiting for this for a long time. Have requested this at viewtopic.php?f=6&t=7519957

please add a comment to the thread , so they know it's important.

Though i think your feature request is valid and pretty useful, what i am asking for is something different. Retrospective recordiing puts what you're playing on a midi device in a buffer, even when you're not recording. Cubase has this really well implemented, and it actually makes use of the feature you're asking when you're not recording, playing in a loop (it creates different buffers and when you commit the buffer it spans across multiple midi lanes). So different things, but related yes.

So it almost works as a time machine, where you can go back in time, and hit record on the daw before starting improv or something.
It's a great feature that Cubase, Logic and others have.

[Fusion]

I also been waiting for this for a long time. Have requested this at viewtopic.php?f=6&t=7519957

please add a comment to the thread , so they know it's important.

Though i think your feature request is valid and pretty useful, what i am asking for is something different. Retrospective recordiing puts what you're playing on a midi device in a buffer, even when you're not recording. Cubase has this really well implemented, and it actually makes use of the feature you're asking when you're not recording, playing in a loop (it creates different buffers and when you commit the buffer it spans across multiple midi lanes). So different things, but related yes.

So it almost works as a time machine, where you can go back in time, and hit record on the daw before starting improv or something.
It's a great feature that Cubase, Logic and others have.

Thanks for the explanation, I did understand what you meant and thought it was still worth adding your comments , so its easy to see what people want.

When I tried Studio one and fruity loops they have the same features that you mention , so I guess it is a standard thing now. Reason Devs should be able to address both features at the same time.

[mcatalao]

Thanks for the explanation, I did understand what you meant and thought it was still worth adding your comments , so its easy to see what people want.

When I tried Studio one and fruity loops they have the same features that you mention , so I guess it is a standard thing now. Reason Devs should be able to address both features at the same time.

And Auto punch in! It's unbelievable reason is probably the only daw that doesn't have auto punch in/out with pre-roll.

[crimsonwarlock]

Punch-in/out is a remnant of the analog tape era. It was a solution to prevent the need to do tape-cut edits. We now have digital audio slicing, comp editing and what not. In the decades that I've been using DAWs, I seriously NEVER had the need for punch-in/out, even though I've used punch-in/out constantly when working with tape back in the day (a long time ago).

[arnigretar]

Just checked now -- I have 824 unfinished work in 35 folders since 2000. I never throw anything. I have also released many albums and release something regularly and sometimes I work out those old projects. My advice is just keep on writing. Writing a song and then finishing one can be two different proccesses. Sometimes it can click from the start -- that is: writing it and recording it live or on-the-go. But sometimes you just write a 8bar-16bar loops and don't have the spirit nor the time to finish it. But I'm just talking about myself here -- people can be so different. And that's cool But like I said-- just keep on writing. Keep on playing. And always save your projects. I just finished one song from 2004 the other day. And that was with help from bassline generator. That song was always missing some kind of bassline, but never found anything match. But today players can help and spark old ideas into songs.