Is it just me, or does Mid Scooping sound really good?

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deeplink
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Post 08 Apr 2021

For more context, I'm talking about in synths - not guitars.

The scoop, is using the Scream4 (no damaged applied) and setting the Mid EQ all the way to zero.

I feel like any synth patch running through the above sounds awesome and more..natural?

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Noise
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Post 08 Apr 2021

I carve the middle in almost everything, especially the 330hz. Tested this middle cut in the Scream4, it has a broader range, I'm guessing 360hz ~ 1.3k. Sounds nice and effective. I often reach for other tools (E670 McDSP, VE-3 EQ) to a quick cut, but this is nice to use too.

You should check the TrackSpacer, it can take it own signal, and apply inverted EQ.

deeplink
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Post 08 Apr 2021

Noise wrote:
08 Apr 2021
I carve the middle in almost everything, especially the 330hz. Tested this middle cut in the Scream4, it has a broader range, I'm guessing 360hz ~ 1.3k. Sounds nice and effective. I often reach for other tools (E670 McDSP, VE-3 EQ) to a quick cut, but this is nice to use too.

You should check the TrackSpacer, it can take it own signal, and apply inverted EQ.
Is there any logic or science behind this? Or is it pure taste?

I haven't been using an EQ in such way before. But I feel like I can't go back now. When I take the midscoop off the sound, suddenly it sounds jarring and feels like the mids are pushed way too high.

This doesn't seem to work on organic instruments, like piano and strings - but with synth sounds it feels better.

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motuscott
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Post 08 Apr 2021

If it sounds good, there's a statistically relevant chance that it is good.
The Now Sound of MIDI Thru 🧂

deeplink
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Post 08 Apr 2021

motuscott wrote:
08 Apr 2021
If it sounds good, there's a statistically relevant chance that it is good.
I don't know man, I go through phases of losing complete trust in my ears/mind

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Noise
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Post 08 Apr 2021

deeplink wrote:
08 Apr 2021
Noise wrote:
08 Apr 2021
I carve the middle in almost everything, especially the 330hz. Tested this middle cut in the Scream4, it has a broader range, I'm guessing 360hz ~ 1.3k. Sounds nice and effective. I often reach for other tools (E670 McDSP, VE-3 EQ) to a quick cut, but this is nice to use too.

You should check the TrackSpacer, it can take it own signal, and apply inverted EQ.
Is there any logic or science behind this? Or is it pure taste?

I haven't been using an EQ in such way before. But I feel like I can't go back now. When I take the midscoop off the sound, suddenly it sounds jarring and feels like the mids are pushed way too high.

This doesn't seem to work on organic instruments, like piano and strings - but with synth sounds it feels better.
The logic is it: It sounds good to me!
The science is: if I subtract the frequency, I'm making room for some other instrument / synth operating in that frequency.

If you are now discovering midscooping, I offer to you, band-scooping!
I've made a home-made recipe for this, it requires some RE's, you can't make this with stock devices. ( I'm assuming )
When some frequency hits the desired threshold, they will be compressed. Just adjust the red threshold knob to start compression individual bands.
The red meter means that the signal is being compressed.
Of course, this is for people with OCD like myself.
2021-04-08_104214.jpg
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Dabbler
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Post 08 Apr 2021

smiley face

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selig
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Post 08 Apr 2021

Dabbler wrote:
08 Apr 2021
smiley face
Came here to say the same.
It can be a rabbit hole though, just look at any car/home audio system with bass/treble both maxed out.

When I was a kid and did the same with the home stereo, my older/wiser brother had me do a little test. He had me cut bass/treble all the way, and asked me how it sounded. “it sucks” I said, obviously. After a minute he said to put bass/treble back at zero and asked me how it sounded. I said “sounds great”, to which he replied “then why did you adjust anything in the first place”?!?

Worth trying on synths, boost the mids and listen for a minute or so. Then return to flat and see if it doesn’t sound just fine...

The question is “does this translate outside of your listening room” because it is unlikely every mix you like has scooped mids (at least to the degree you’re doing with Scream). Could be a better approach is to get monitors that have scooped mids so that you hear things as you “expect” rather than imposing your hearing on your mixes. I do a similar thing by boosting bass (sub woofer) and trimming highs a bit because MY personal pref is to hear bass heavy music - but if I make it sound “right” to me (overly bass heavy), it doesn’t translate outside of my “world”.

This technique has worked great for me for decades, worth a try if you’ve never tried it before - win/win for everyone!
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Billy+
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Post 08 Apr 2021

deeplink wrote:
08 Apr 2021
For more context, I'm talking about in synths - not guitars.

The scoop, is using the Scream4 (no damaged applied) and setting the Mid EQ all the way to zero.

I feel like any synth patch running through the above sounds awesome and more..natural?
Maybe you should include some audio examples with and without the scoop ;)

Just lately my ears have started playing tricks on me too.....

DaveyG
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Post 08 Apr 2021

The art of mixing is mostly cutting rather than boosting.

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integerpoet
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Post 08 Apr 2021

Also try using EQ on the mid and and side "channels".

The first time I scooped the low mids of the mid "channel" of master was a mind-blower for me. Out, damned mud!

Many rack extensions offer mid/side EQ or ways to do mid/side separation you can apply to EQ or whatever else strikes your fancy.

There are probably many threads here about this and some of them will likely contain Combinators which help.

Or you can give this a whack: https://www.google.com/search?q=reason+mid+side

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guitfnky
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Post 08 Apr 2021

DaveyG wrote:
08 Apr 2021
The art of mixing is mostly cutting rather than boosting.
no.

the art of mixing is doing what you need to get the best sound. being tentative with your moves or arbitrarily working too much one way (as in the “cut, don’t boost” advice) is a quick road to ensuring a mix isn’t as good as it could be (and it’s likely to be much more frustrating along the way).

unless you’re using old analog gear, boost as much as you need to, to get things sounding the way you want.

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Noise
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Post 08 Apr 2021

I like this guy:


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raymondh
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Post 08 Apr 2021

integerpoet wrote:
08 Apr 2021
Also try using EQ on the mid and and side "channels".

The first time I scooped the low mids of the mid "channel" of master was a mind-blower for me. Out, damned mud!

Many rack extensions offer mid/side EQ or ways to do mid/side separation you can apply to EQ or whatever else strikes your fancy.

There are probably many threads here about this and some of them will likely contain Combinators which help.

Or you can give this a whack: https://www.google.com/search?q=reason+mid+side
Mid/side mixing is a bit of a black art to me - something I want to learn more about.

Some of the mastering presets in iZotope Ozone use this extensively and the result is loud, present and really wide masters. I need to deconstruct how they do this, but it certainly is a lot more than just the imager. How and when to use EQ and compression on the mid and side channels is a bit of a mystery to me!
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guitfnky
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Post 08 Apr 2021

M/S is fun, but comes with its own problems. you have to take care that you’re not ruining things when summing to mono (I’ve learned this the hard way). it’s useful to have in your back pocket, but knowing how to get things sounding right with standard stereo processing will take a mix further than using M/S to clear out the middle.

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integerpoet
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Post 08 Apr 2021

guitfnky wrote:
08 Apr 2021
M/S is fun, but comes with its own problems. you have to take care that you’re not ruining things when summing to mono (I’ve learned this the hard way). it’s useful to have in your back pocket, but knowing how to get things sounding right with standard stereo processing will take a mix further than using M/S to clear out the middle.
Yup.

I'm not recommending anybody do that by rote just like I wouldn't recommend anybody scoop mids of synths by rote.

But the first time you do it… hoo boy… It gives your brain some weird feels.

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killhamster
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Joined: 02 Aug 2019
Location: Portland, OR

Post 09 Apr 2021

Noise wrote:
08 Apr 2021
deeplink wrote:
08 Apr 2021


Is there any logic or science behind this? Or is it pure taste?

I haven't been using an EQ in such way before. But I feel like I can't go back now. When I take the midscoop off the sound, suddenly it sounds jarring and feels like the mids are pushed way too high.

This doesn't seem to work on organic instruments, like piano and strings - but with synth sounds it feels better.
The logic is it: It sounds good to me!
The science is: if I subtract the frequency, I'm making room for some other instrument / synth operating in that frequency.

If you are now discovering midscooping, I offer to you, band-scooping!
I've made a home-made recipe for this, it requires some RE's, you can't make this with stock devices. ( I'm assuming )
When some frequency hits the desired threshold, they will be compressed. Just adjust the red threshold knob to start compression individual bands.
The red meter means that the signal is being compressed.
Of course, this is for people with OCD like myself.

2021-04-08_104214.jpg

Also the combinator is attached!
Every time I've built one of these and used it on friends' tracks it's like magic. They have no idea what I've done or how but they're always blown away with the results.

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selig
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Post 09 Apr 2021

DaveyG wrote:
08 Apr 2021
The art of mixing is mostly cutting rather than boosting.
You mean I’ve been doing it wrong for all these years? 🤓
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motuscott
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Post 09 Apr 2021

selig wrote:
09 Apr 2021
DaveyG wrote:
08 Apr 2021
The art of mixing is mostly cutting rather than boosting.
You mean I’ve been doing it wrong for all these years? 🤓
I think he does.

Fight! Fight!
The Now Sound of MIDI Thru 🧂

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Noise
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Post 09 Apr 2021

selig wrote:
09 Apr 2021
DaveyG wrote:
08 Apr 2021
The art of mixing is mostly cutting rather than boosting.
You mean I’ve been doing it wrong for all these years? 🤓
I know some desserts around here that may contain both sugar and salt. Do they taste bad ? No, they just take full advantage of your gustatory cells.

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selig
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Post 09 Apr 2021

Noise wrote:
08 Apr 2021
The logic is it: It sounds good to me!
The science is: if I subtract the frequency, I'm making room for some other instrument / synth operating in that frequency.
To the first - louder also “sounds good“, but is it actually better?

To the second, it’s all relative. You don’t have to “make room” if you LEAVE room in the first place, just like you don’t have to scoop out mud if there is no mud in the first place. Many times I find that boosting a small range in a single track brings that track out of the “fog” of a dull mix far more effectively (and more simply) than cutting everything else to “make room”. It’s all relative...

Worth noting the ONLY sound that sits at one frequency/range is a sine wave playing a single note. Every other sound occupies multiple frequencies/ranges, so you can’t really “fit” sounds together like a puzzle - there’s tons of overlap that is both natural and essential IMO. The dynamics of the sound can also play a big role in it fitting (or not fitting) a sound into a mix - it’s a complex relationship! 🤓
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guitfnky
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Post 09 Apr 2021

one trick that I’ve stumbled onto which helps me when I’m struggling to fit a track into a very dense mix (i.e. all of my mixes) is, pull the track in question down to where it’s pretty lost in the mix. then grab an EQ and boost aggressively, (with a narrow to mid-ish Q) while moving that sucker around to find the frequencies that help make it poke its head back above the water. dial back the gain, and open the Q to taste, and re-level the track.

if it’s causing any mud, before I take that last re-leveling step, I’ll do the same thing to try to find the muddy frequencies—boost aggressively and sweep until I find the area where things get really mushy or lost again. then turn the boost into a cut, and this time, narrow the Q, and re-level. works really well.

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selig
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Post 09 Apr 2021

guitfnky wrote:
09 Apr 2021
one trick that I’ve stumbled onto which helps me when I’m struggling to fit a track into a very dense mix (i.e. all of my mixes) is, pull the track in question down to where it’s pretty lost in the mix. then grab an EQ and boost aggressively, (with a narrow to mid-ish Q) while moving that sucker around to find the frequencies that help make it poke its head back above the water. dial back the gain, and open the Q to taste, and re-level the track.

if it’s causing any mud, before I take that last re-leveling step, I’ll do the same thing to try to find the muddy frequencies—boost aggressively and sweep until I find the area where things get really mushy or lost again. then turn the boost into a cut, and this time, narrow the Q, and re-level. works really well.
Totally agree - I start a mix by getting all tracks to sit so they are never too loud as the song plays, but they may be too soft at some points which is ok. Then I use the EQ as gain control for a limited range of the essential frequencies of that track. ‘Essential” meaning the frequency range that allows that track to sit well in the mix - I like your analogy of getting the tracks “head above water”!
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