Raising overall mix volume: possible master bus option?

Have an urge to learn, or a calling to teach? Want to share some useful Youtube videos? Do it here!
User avatar
selig
RE Developer
Posts: 8955
Joined: 15 Jan 2015
Location: The NorthWoods, CT, USA

Post 07 Jan 2021

Thousand Ways wrote:
06 Jan 2021
After getting more and more confused about what the Selig Gain is actually telling me – I mean that the numbers that pop up in the "Peak Hold" display are significantly higher than any of those reached by the peaks on the Big Meter at any point in the track – I've just had to disable it. It's beyond me.
It looks 100% correct to me, because you are inserting it in the channel insert then lowering the channel fader - so the Big Meter SHOULD read lower than Selig Gain because you are measuring two completely different levels.
Remember that the Big Meter may not show accurate channel levels if you alter ANY setting on the channel. But it will always show accurate output levels, so understanding your gain stages (like the fader) helps to explain what you're seeing.

Plus your text doesn't match your images. In #1 Selig Gain shows a peak hold of -6 dB but your text says it reads -28 dB - But you ALSO say "here the two meters match", when they do not match at all in your text or in your image.

Again, the first two images clearly show Selig Gain displaying "-6 dB" in the peak hold meter, but your text somehow comes up with -24 and -28 dB as the Peak level?

The numeric display in Selig Gain is 100% accurate, I just testing it once again. Remember, in the mode you're using, it will hold the highest peak indefinitely, so you won't see any indication of a level lower than what's on the display until you use Auto or hit Reset.

I hope you're not trying to use the tiny little LED meter on Selig Gain, which is NOT a peak hold meter and would be incredibly difficult to read an accurate level. Use the Peak Hold numeric display - that's what it's there for!
Selig Audio, LLC

Thousand Ways
Posts: 177
Joined: 18 Jun 2015

Post 07 Jan 2021

selig wrote:
07 Jan 2021
I hope you're not trying to use the tiny little LED meter on Selig Gain
I am.
selig wrote:
07 Jan 2021
which is NOT a peak hold meter and would be incredibly difficult to read an accurate level. Use the Peak Hold numeric display - that's what it's there for!
Okay, but if the LED meter is not to be read, why not just remove it from the design and have the numeric readout alone?
selig wrote:
07 Jan 2021
It looks 100% correct to me, because you are inserting it in the channel insert then lowering the channel fader - so the Big Meter SHOULD read lower than Selig Gain because you are measuring two completely different levels.
I'd thought that by soloing a channel on the main mixer, the Big Meter would accurately measure the signal from that channel alone. And that if an SG was placed as an insert within that soloed channel, then the SG would likewise measure the signal from that channel alone, and that therefore the two readings – BM and SG – should be identical. I've evidently got this wrong, but cannot comprehend the difference.
selig wrote:
07 Jan 2021
The numeric display in Selig Gain is 100% accurate, I just testing it once again.
I haven't meant, at all, to imply that the Selig Gain – or the Big Meter, for that matter – is not accurate. It's purely a matter of not understanding why these two readouts don't tally in the manner I'd thought they would.

User avatar
selig
RE Developer
Posts: 8955
Joined: 15 Jan 2015
Location: The NorthWoods, CT, USA

Post 07 Jan 2021

Thousand Ways wrote:
07 Jan 2021
selig wrote:
07 Jan 2021
I hope you're not trying to use the tiny little LED meter on Selig Gain
I am.
selig wrote:
07 Jan 2021
which is NOT a peak hold meter and would be incredibly difficult to read an accurate level. Use the Peak Hold numeric display - that's what it's there for!
Okay, but if the LED meter is not to be read, why not just remove it from the design and have the numeric readout alone?
selig wrote:
07 Jan 2021
It looks 100% correct to me, because you are inserting it in the channel insert then lowering the channel fader - so the Big Meter SHOULD read lower than Selig Gain because you are measuring two completely different levels.
I'd thought that by soloing a channel on the main mixer, the Big Meter would accurately measure the signal from that channel alone. And that if an SG was placed as an insert within that soloed channel, then the SG would likewise measure the signal from that channel alone, and that therefore the two readings – BM and SG – should be identical. I've evidently got this wrong, but cannot comprehend the difference.
selig wrote:
07 Jan 2021
The numeric display in Selig Gain is 100% accurate, I just testing it once again.
I haven't meant, at all, to imply that the Selig Gain – or the Big Meter, for that matter – is not accurate. It's purely a matter of not understanding why these two readouts don't tally in the manner I'd thought they would.
The meter on Selig Gain is there to show general level, especially the difference between input and output if you change gain with the fader. Every meter shows you something different. A VU meter shows only 3 dB above 0 dBVU, and only down to - 20 dBU (and shows you an average level over time). A peak meter typically shows NO level above 0 dBFS, and often down quite low. A LUFS meter shows a representation of perceived loudness, to different degrees according to what you're looking for. A decibel meter shows you SPL, typically in 10 dB ranges. Making sense?

Soloing a channel shows you the RESULT of everything on the Big Meter, including any bus processing/fader changes, and any master processing/fader changes.
The reason you are seeing a difference is because there IS a difference. If you measure gain before a fader that is reducing the level like yours is, the the level AFTER the fader will be lower than the level BEFORE the fader. Since the Big Meter is after EVERYTHING, it can only show you the final level, which is the result of every change you make.
TL/DR: the Big Meter is showing you the result of lowering the gain with the channel fader, so it MUST be different than the level of the signal BEFORE the fader (in the Channel Insert in your case).

I'm happy to explain further if it will help!
:)
Selig Audio, LLC

Thousand Ways
Posts: 177
Joined: 18 Jun 2015

Post 08 Jan 2021

Thank you, as ever, for your incredible patience. And my apologies for exhausting everyone else's.

As the SG manual says, most of the unit's functions remain visible when it is collapsed in the rack. Perhaps it's better to use it in collapsed form: one can still read the peak numbers but the LED meter, which personally I automatically watch, is hidden.

I understand your before/after explanation. Is there a means of placing a Selig Gain after everything, so that it shows the same results as the Big Meter when soloed, but still have the SG sitting as an insert effect within the channel?

User avatar
selig
RE Developer
Posts: 8955
Joined: 15 Jan 2015
Location: The NorthWoods, CT, USA

Post 08 Jan 2021

Thousand Ways wrote:
08 Jan 2021
Thank you, as ever, for your incredible patience. And my apologies for exhausting everyone else's.

As the SG manual says, most of the unit's functions remain visible when it is collapsed in the rack. Perhaps it's better to use it in collapsed form: one can still read the peak numbers but the LED meter, which personally I automatically watch, is hidden.

I understand your before/after explanation. Is there a means of placing a Selig Gain after everything, so that it shows the same results as the Big Meter when soloed, but still have the SG sitting as an insert effect within the channel?
I put a SG right after the Master Outputs to show the true output of the mixer, and one right after my mastering plugins (Ozone Elements) even though it's redundant since Ozone's metering shows the same thing.

Also, what SG does in the metering department is the Peak Hold display. That's the part that's missing from Reason, that is how I use metering in Selig Gain. I don't need to see the level over time, I need to see the highest peak - maybe consider what you're wanting to see from SG - if not the highest peak, than what?

If I wanted to rely on the LED meters in SG (or any device I built) I would have built the meters horizontally (like the Big Meter) to increase the resolution to a useful amount. But I STILL find the Big Meter difficult to read quickly, while the Peak Hold display in SG is visible from across the room! ;)

Bottom Line: Numerals are better at displaying a static (or mostly static) quantifiable value than a moving graphic image IMO.
Selig Audio, LLC

Thousand Ways
Posts: 177
Joined: 18 Jun 2015

Post 09 Jan 2021

selig wrote:
08 Jan 2021
I put a SG right after the Master Outputs to show the true output of the mixer
The two screenshots below show my guess at how this is done. Disconnected the Master Section's "master out" from the Audio I/O at the top, and instead routed it to a Spider Audio Merger/Splitter. Ran signal from the Spider back to the Audio I/O, but also to a new Selig Gain. This seems to make the SG give the same post-everything readout as the Big Meter, I think. Is this the best means of doing it?

Image

Image
selig wrote:
08 Jan 2021
Also, what SG does in the metering department is the Peak Hold display. […] I don't need to see the level over time, I need to see the highest peak
Isn't it useful to see the level over time, rather than just the highest peak? Sometimes you might want to reduce a few peaks that are sticking out here and there, rather than reducing the volume of the whole channel.
selig wrote:
08 Jan 2021
maybe consider what you're wanting to see from SG - if not the highest peak, than what?
Essentially, to use SG as a duplicate of the Big Meter's readings, but one that can be moved around in the rack. If the rack contains lots of instruments, and you want to solo each and check its levels throughout the track using the Big Meter, then with the instruments at the bottom of the rack you have to keep scrolling up and down between instrument and meter. If it's possible to set SG to give pretty much the same readouts as the Big Meter, then you could move the SG right next to any soloed instrument in the rack, which would be more convenient, no?

  • Information
  • Who is online

    Users browsing this forum: CommonCrawl [Bot] and 0 guests