Adjusting project tempo to midi recording not vice-versa

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cocoazenith
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Joined: 31 May 2015

Post 07 Jan 2020

I like to go about my composition without deciding on a tempo before. After I am happy with a midi part i've recorded
i would like to adjust the project tempo to that midi part not vice versa.

How can i do that?

(Tapping the tempo to the midi part speed just speeds up the midi part as well and i am losing the original feel)

thanks!

p.s. i don't want to access a third party google website where i tap along the midi part i've just played. i'd prefer to do everything within Reason.

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Benedict
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Post 07 Jan 2020

As far as I know, Reason doesn't have this feature. I'd like it myself.

I think Digital Performer (and maybe Opcode Studio Vision) were about the first to implement this as a feature to convert a Rubato performance into a tempo mapped grid.

Most DAWs focus more on the EDM world where a n od d ti m e g rid would be more damaging than good.

I think you may need to either do as I do and accept those performances happening "on tape" and perform against them with no reference to the grid, or find a program that can map tempo to your performance and export that in a MIDI File.

:-)

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selig
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Post 08 Jan 2020

It's totally doable, but takes a few steps. Let's assume you recorded at 120 BPM (the default tempo), you're playing is "in time" and clocks in at 90 BPM. And assuming you want the final performance to sound the same, but need the grid to line up to the notes, which you'll actually accomplish by doing the opposite: lining the notes up to the grid (six of one, half dozen of another).
The first thing is to edit the note clip to start on the first note/downbeat, then move that clip to the top of the sequence so the first note starts on bar 1 beat 1. Next you have two choices: stretch the clip to fit the bars at 120 then change tempo, or change tempo then stretch to fit the bars - only difference is what you'd hear at any point if you hit play! To "fit" the notes to the bars, you need to option-drag (time stretch) the end of the note clip so that the last note falls on the correct bar/beat Of course you'll need to know what bar/beat this should be, and somewhat non-intuitively going from 120 down to 90 means you'll need to shorten the recorded clip so it lines up with the current bars. Think about it this way - you're playing at 90 so notes are longer than the current grid (120 BPM), so you need to shorten them to fit the grid. Basically that's the "game" - get the notes on the grid, no matter the current tempo setting.
Finally, if you've not already done so, adjust your tempo to 90 and that's it. If your playing was not precise and you don't want to keep the feel, quantize as needed. Otherwise you MAY need to fine tune the clip stretch while listening (turn off SNAP) and adjusting.
Selig Audio, LLC

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Benedict
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Post 08 Jan 2020

Selig is right. That will work for a steady tempo.

I was thinking of the more wandering time where is it not so even. Then, the method will work but be a total PITA seeing I would have to keep doing it in slices as my "feel" is prone to being very robust in its dynamic tempo movement :-O

To be fair, I have not tried something like what was in Digital Performer so it may not go as well as their marketing indicated.

:-)

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Re8et
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Joined: 14 Nov 2016

Post 10 Jan 2020

Something like disable audio stretch for midi?
I've been using metronome and something similar to what Selig explained.

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selig
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Post 10 Jan 2020

Benedict wrote:
08 Jan 2020
Selig is right. That will work for a steady tempo.

I was thinking of the more wandering time where is it not so even. Then, the method will work but be a total PITA seeing I would have to keep doing it in slices as my "feel" is prone to being very robust in its dynamic tempo movement :-O

To be fair, I have not tried something like what was in Digital Performer so it may not go as well as their marketing indicated.

:-)
Ryan posted a video of how to do this with audio, so maybe there's a way to do it after all?
Can't remember anything about the video or know for sure it works with MIDI, maybe someone else remembers the video?
Selig Audio, LLC

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Benedict
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Location: Gold Coast, Australia

Post 10 Jan 2020

selig wrote:
10 Jan 2020
Benedict wrote:
08 Jan 2020
Selig is right. That will work for a steady tempo.

I was thinking of the more wandering time where is it not so even. Then, the method will work but be a total PITA seeing I would have to keep doing it in slices as my "feel" is prone to being very robust in its dynamic tempo movement :-O

To be fair, I have not tried something like what was in Digital Performer so it may not go as well as their marketing indicated.

:-)
Ryan posted a video of how to do this with audio, so maybe there's a way to do it after all?
Can't remember anything about the video or know for sure it works with MIDI, maybe someone else remembers the video?
You know, now you mention it, I kinda remember there being such a video. Was forever ago...

:-)

PhillipOrdonez
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Location: Colombia

Post 11 Jan 2020

cocoazenith wrote:
07 Jan 2020
I like to go about my composition without deciding on a tempo before. After I am happy with a midi part i've recorded
i would like to adjust the project tempo to that midi part not vice versa.

How can i do that?

(Tapping the tempo to the midi part speed just speeds up the midi part as well and i am losing the original feel)

thanks!

p.s. i don't want to access a third party google website where i tap along the midi part i've just played. i'd prefer to do everything within Reason.
To figure out the tempo, have an app on your phone. Once you know the tempo, you can follow the instructions laid out in this thread, for example.

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orthodox
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Post 11 Jan 2020

1) Bounce in place the midi clip
2) Disable stretch on the audio clip and solo that track
3) Play it and tap the tempo
4) Stretch-drag the midi clip to match the length of the bounced audio clip
Never imagine yourself not to be otherwise than what it might appear to others that what you were or might have been was not otherwise than what you had been would have appeared to them to be otherwise. -- L.Carroll

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guitfnky
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Post 11 Jan 2020



that’s the video, I think. the relevant section starts at around 2:20. I don’t know if it works with MIDI, but if you bounce your MIDI clip to audio, then do your tempo mapping steps from the video, you should be good to go. once you finish the process, you should be able to delete the audio file, and your tempo map should follow the MIDI clip

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orthodox
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Post 11 Jan 2020

I can't see how midi events could be remapped to new bar grid positions in case of variable tempo. If I had this problem, I would write a script in something like perl or python to process a midi file and apply tempo automation to it.
Never imagine yourself not to be otherwise than what it might appear to others that what you were or might have been was not otherwise than what you had been would have appeared to them to be otherwise. -- L.Carroll

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Benedict
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Location: Gold Coast, Australia

Post 12 Jan 2020

Yeah, really clever in itself, assuming we want the live performance to be "following" the drums as opposed to the drums, pianner, s(ampled)trumpet, distressingly overdistorted Behringer 303 clone... following the unique timing flow of the live performance like a real Accompanist would (whilst grimacing).

I think yes, this still leaves us with a hole in Reason's abilities. One that Digital Performer did solve and I'd be delighted to see in Reason.

:-)

groggy1
Posts: 424
Joined: 10 Jun 2015

Post 17 Jan 2020

guitfnky wrote:
11 Jan 2020


that’s the video, I think. the relevant section starts at around 2:20. I don’t know if it works with MIDI, but if you bounce your MIDI clip to audio, then do your tempo mapping steps from the video, you should be good to go. once you finish the process, you should be able to delete the audio file, and your tempo map should follow the MIDI clip
I tried Ryan’s tempo map technique on a wandering acoustic guitar track last night, and it’s pretty amazing way to “quantize a performance”.

Does anyone know why it works though? I get why creating tempo map gets the rest of the song to speed up / slow down to match original performance. But why dies bouncing to a new recording “warp” the guitar performance that used to wander, and is now quantized?

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guitfnky
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Post 17 Jan 2020

groggy1 wrote:
17 Jan 2020
guitfnky wrote:
11 Jan 2020


that’s the video, I think. the relevant section starts at around 2:20. I don’t know if it works with MIDI, but if you bounce your MIDI clip to audio, then do your tempo mapping steps from the video, you should be good to go. once you finish the process, you should be able to delete the audio file, and your tempo map should follow the MIDI clip
I tried Ryan’s tempo map technique on a wandering acoustic guitar track last night, and it’s pretty amazing way to “quantize a performance”.

Does anyone know why it works though? I get why creating tempo map gets the rest of the song to speed up / slow down to match original performance. But why dies bouncing to a new recording “warp” the guitar performance that used to wander, and is now quantized?
if you’re only following the steps in the video, the guitar performance isn’t being “warped” as you say—the tempo of the song is what’s being warped, to match the guitar’s tempo.

Reason does have time-stretching algorithms, which make it possible to warp the audio/MIDI performances to match programmed tempo changes (or you can do them by stretching the edges of a clip manually, while holding a shortcut key).

so basically, there are two sides to the same coin. you can modify the tempo to match a performance (as shown in the video), or you can modify the performance to match the tempo (or in spite of the tempo).

hopefully that made sense (and hopefully I understood the question).

groggy1
Posts: 424
Joined: 10 Jun 2015

Post 17 Jan 2020

guitfnky wrote:
17 Jan 2020
groggy1 wrote:
17 Jan 2020


I tried Ryan’s tempo map technique on a wandering acoustic guitar track last night, and it’s pretty amazing way to “quantize a performance”.

Does anyone know why it works though? I get why creating tempo map gets the rest of the song to speed up / slow down to match original performance. But why dies bouncing to a new recording “warp” the guitar performance that used to wander, and is now quantized?
if you’re only following the steps in the video, the guitar performance isn’t being “warped” as you say—the tempo of the song is what’s being warped, to match the guitar’s tempo.

Reason does have time-stretching algorithms, which make it possible to warp the audio/MIDI performances to match programmed tempo changes (or you can do them by stretching the edges of a clip manually, while holding a shortcut key).

so basically, there are two sides to the same coin. you can modify the tempo to match a performance (as shown in the video), or you can modify the performance to match the tempo (or in spite of the tempo).

hopefully that made sense (and hopefully I understood the question).
After the last step, reason shows the tempo as fixed, at 120. And tempo map is deleted. So rest of song is now steady at 120, no?

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orthodox
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Joined: 22 Jan 2015

Post 17 Jan 2020

groggy1 wrote:
17 Jan 2020
After the last step, reason shows the tempo as fixed, at 120. And tempo map is deleted. So rest of song is now steady at 120, no?
What rest? Only one audio clip was adjusted to the sequencer grid. Before that, the tempo was constant 120. After that, the tempo is 120 again. So whatever else there was in that song, aside from the clip, is unchanged.
Never imagine yourself not to be otherwise than what it might appear to others that what you were or might have been was not otherwise than what you had been would have appeared to them to be otherwise. -- L.Carroll

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guitfnky
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Joined: 19 Jan 2015

Post 18 Jan 2020

groggy1 wrote:
17 Jan 2020
guitfnky wrote:
17 Jan 2020


if you’re only following the steps in the video, the guitar performance isn’t being “warped” as you say—the tempo of the song is what’s being warped, to match the guitar’s tempo.

Reason does have time-stretching algorithms, which make it possible to warp the audio/MIDI performances to match programmed tempo changes (or you can do them by stretching the edges of a clip manually, while holding a shortcut key).

so basically, there are two sides to the same coin. you can modify the tempo to match a performance (as shown in the video), or you can modify the performance to match the tempo (or in spite of the tempo).

hopefully that made sense (and hopefully I understood the question).
After the last step, reason shows the tempo as fixed, at 120. And tempo map is deleted. So rest of song is now steady at 120, no?
ah, right you are. that’s what I get for going off memory instead of just rewatching the damn thing. 😆

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