No Subtractor-like Phase Modulation + FM Reason synths?

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RobC
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Post 01 Dec 2018

Subtractor's multiplication and subtraction feature is such a fantastic tool, especially when combined with its true FM capabilities. You can make unique sounds, no other Reason synth can.

I think Thor could use its own oscillators for FM on each-other, but other synths seem to limit that to using sine waves as modulators. However, I only seem to find both FM and Phase Modulation combined, on Subtractor. Is that a unique feature? It literally is what still ties me to mostly using Subtractor when generating sounds.

Somebody please clear up my confusion if I'm (hopefully) just missing something.

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Oquasec
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Post 01 Dec 2018

Reason works one way, modular.
Modules. Building blocks.
The limit is what you can think of.
The cables on the back dictate what ya make of the modules.
Producer/Sound Designer.
Anything works.

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Loque
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Post 01 Dec 2018

There are a few synths that can do even more, like RM, AM, FM, PM... At the same time. Expanse is one of the best here.

Thor can do AM, PWM, FM at the same time, but no phase modulation AFAIK.

Every synth should allow modulation... It's like having a modular synth without a cable input for modulation - nobody wants that...
:reason: 10, Win10 64Bit.

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selig
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Post 01 Dec 2018

If you really want to go down that rabbit hole, patch Pulsar (or any oscillator with phase controls and sync) into Thor and do your own multiplication/subtraction (or both?) while adjusting phase on one oscillator on Pulsar. You can also use different waveforms (unlike Subtractor) or try different amounts of multiplication/subtraction/both. Use a scope (every sonic explorer should have one!) to compare shapes between Subtractor and Pulsar/Thor. Hours of fun!
Selig Audio, LLC

RandomSkratch
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Post 01 Dec 2018

selig wrote:If you really want to go down that rabbit hole, patch Pulsar (or any oscillator with phase controls and sync) into Thor and do your own multiplication/subtraction (or both?) while adjusting phase on one oscillator on Pulsar. You can also use different waveforms (unlike Subtractor) or try different amounts of multiplication/subtraction/both. Use a scope (every sonic explorer should have one!) to compare shapes between Subtractor and Pulsar/Thor. Hours of fun!
+1 on the scope. After experimenting with Sub lately and rereading the manual I totally forgot it could do PWM! Putting a scope on it let me get it exactly what I was looking for, plus seeing what the different modes do is awesome. I wish Reason had a built in one that would be just like their big spectrum analyzer (maybe toggle between the two?)




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manisnotabird
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Post 02 Dec 2018

Wish there was an oscilloscope rack extension with a note-in input on the back and/or the ability to receive note MIDI data.

RandomSkratch
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Post 02 Dec 2018

manisnotabird wrote:Wish there was an oscilloscope rack extension with a note-in input on the back and/or the ability to receive note MIDI data.
But an oscilloscope measures audio signal. Without feeding it audio it wouldn't display anything.


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manisnotabird
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Post 03 Dec 2018

RandomSkratch wrote:
02 Dec 2018
manisnotabird wrote:Wish there was an oscilloscope rack extension with a note-in input on the back and/or the ability to receive note MIDI data.
But an oscilloscope measures audio signal. Without feeding it audio it wouldn't display anything.


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It would have audio in too, of course. I want it to display only, say, 4 cycles of the incoming audio waveform, scaled to the note I play. The scope in Reaktor Blocks has the functionality I want, and can be used inside a combinator as a Reaktor FX to achieve what I'm talking about with a monophonic audio input.

RandomSkratch
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Post 03 Dec 2018

manisnotabird wrote:
03 Dec 2018
RandomSkratch wrote:
02 Dec 2018

But an oscilloscope measures audio signal. Without feeding it audio it wouldn't display anything.


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It would have audio in too, of course. I want it to display only, say, 4 cycles of the incoming audio waveform, scaled to the note I play. The scope in Reaktor Blocks has the functionality I want, and can be used inside a combinator as a Reaktor FX to achieve what I'm talking about with a monophonic audio input.
Have you looked at Skope by Lectric Panda yet? https://shop.propellerheads.com/rack-extension/skope/

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manisnotabird
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Post 03 Dec 2018

RandomSkratch wrote:
03 Dec 2018
manisnotabird wrote:
03 Dec 2018


It would have audio in too, of course. I want it to display only, say, 4 cycles of the incoming audio waveform, scaled to the note I play. The scope in Reaktor Blocks has the functionality I want, and can be used inside a combinator as a Reaktor FX to achieve what I'm talking about with a monophonic audio input.
Have you looked at Skope by Lectric Panda yet? https://shop.propellerheads.com/rack-extension/skope/
Yes. It doesn't have what I'm talking about.

RobC
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Joined: 10 Mar 2018

Post 03 Dec 2018

Oquasec wrote:
01 Dec 2018
Reason works one way, modular.
Modules. Building blocks.
The limit is what you can think of.
The cables on the back dictate what ya make of the modules.
You're right, but like Loque, I'm wondering why not just create a synth that has it all. Something is always missing.

RobC
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Joined: 10 Mar 2018

Post 03 Dec 2018

Loque wrote:
01 Dec 2018
There are a few synths that can do even more, like RM, AM, FM, PM... At the same time. Expanse is one of the best here.

Thor can do AM, PWM, FM at the same time, but no phase modulation AFAIK.

Every synth should allow modulation... It's like having a modular synth without a cable input for modulation - nobody wants that...
Oh... I forgot to make it clear by Reason synths, I meant Ph's own stock synths.
I need to look into that Pulse Modulation sometime again, cause I don't fully understand how it works under-the-hood yet.

RobC
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Joined: 10 Mar 2018

Post 03 Dec 2018

selig wrote:
01 Dec 2018
If you really want to go down that rabbit hole, patch Pulsar (or any oscillator with phase controls and sync) into Thor and do your own multiplication/subtraction (or both?) while adjusting phase on one oscillator on Pulsar. You can also use different waveforms (unlike Subtractor) or try different amounts of multiplication/subtraction/both. Use a scope (every sonic explorer should have one!) to compare shapes between Subtractor and Pulsar/Thor. Hours of fun!
Actually, there is an ancient oscilloscope with green light here available, but a bit dusty. : )
I really need to read that manual again. Thanks! I totally forgot about such possibilities like with Pulsar.

Now, with sampled sound, for example inside NN-XT, I thought, multiplication is just adding the two instances of the same sample, then offsetting them (I feel that might just be 'adding' ~ any idea how we 'multiply' two signals inside Reason? - though I imagine that getting pretty loud). As for subtraction, I thought it's just inverting the duplicate, then offsetting that. I didn't experiment enough with sampled sounds that way, to know if it results in multiplication/subtraction. These also make me wonder what results we could get with 'adding' and 'division'?

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Oquasec
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Post 04 Dec 2018

I wouldn't worry about a synth having everything. That's the job of the combinator.
Producer/Sound Designer.
Anything works.

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Loque
Posts: 4262
Joined: 28 Dec 2015

Post 04 Dec 2018

RobC wrote:
03 Dec 2018
selig wrote:
01 Dec 2018
If you really want to go down that rabbit hole, patch Pulsar (or any oscillator with phase controls and sync) into Thor and do your own multiplication/subtraction (or both?) while adjusting phase on one oscillator on Pulsar. You can also use different waveforms (unlike Subtractor) or try different amounts of multiplication/subtraction/both. Use a scope (every sonic explorer should have one!) to compare shapes between Subtractor and Pulsar/Thor. Hours of fun!
Actually, there is an ancient oscilloscope with green light here available, but a bit dusty. : )
I really need to read that manual again. Thanks! I totally forgot about such possibilities like with Pulsar.

Now, with sampled sound, for example inside NN-XT, I thought, multiplication is just adding the two instances of the same sample, then offsetting them (I feel that might just be 'adding' ~ any idea how we 'multiply' two signals inside Reason? - though I imagine that getting pretty loud). As for subtraction, I thought it's just inverting the duplicate, then offsetting that. I didn't experiment enough with sampled sounds that way, to know if it results in multiplication/subtraction. These also make me wonder what results we could get with 'adding' and 'division'?
There is a math VST available that opens a lot of possibility.
:reason: 10, Win10 64Bit.

RobC
Posts: 955
Joined: 10 Mar 2018

Post 05 Dec 2018

Oquasec wrote:
04 Dec 2018
I wouldn't worry about a synth having everything. That's the job of the combinator.
I guess with Reason's CV system, most of these common synthesis/modulation effects can be recreated (or maybe even all of them); although when I tried converting a Saw coming from a Subtractor to CV with Thor, then modulating another Subtractor's pitch with it; the result barely sounded as good as with Subtractor's internal FM.
As far as I knew, FM is basically (pitch) frequency modulation at high frequencies, which create new harmonics. Maybe the audio-to-CV conversion distorted the signal...

RobC
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Joined: 10 Mar 2018

Post 05 Dec 2018

Loque wrote:
04 Dec 2018
RobC wrote:
03 Dec 2018


Actually, there is an ancient oscilloscope with green light here available, but a bit dusty. : )
I really need to read that manual again. Thanks! I totally forgot about such possibilities like with Pulsar.

Now, with sampled sound, for example inside NN-XT, I thought, multiplication is just adding the two instances of the same sample, then offsetting them (I feel that might just be 'adding' ~ any idea how we 'multiply' two signals inside Reason? - though I imagine that getting pretty loud). As for subtraction, I thought it's just inverting the duplicate, then offsetting that. I didn't experiment enough with sampled sounds that way, to know if it results in multiplication/subtraction. These also make me wonder what results we could get with 'adding' and 'division'?
There is a math VST available that opens a lot of possibility.
Which would that be?
I'm curious what basic and more complicated math can do with sound. Unless the ones in Subtractor are the most usable ones ~ after all, they probably tested it all; like what's useful and such.

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Loque
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Joined: 28 Dec 2015

Post 05 Dec 2018

RobC wrote:
05 Dec 2018
Loque wrote:
04 Dec 2018


There is a math VST available that opens a lot of possibility.
Which would that be?
I'm curious what basic and more complicated math can do with sound. Unless the ones in Subtractor are the most usable ones ~ after all, they probably tested it all; like what's useful and such.
I wrote something here: viewtopic.php?f=48&t=7507468&hilit=math

Download it here: https://socalabs.com/developer-tools/maths/

And Serum has a scripting with math stuff AFAIK.
:reason: 10, Win10 64Bit.

RobC
Posts: 955
Joined: 10 Mar 2018

Post 05 Dec 2018

Loque wrote:
05 Dec 2018
RobC wrote:
05 Dec 2018


Which would that be?
I'm curious what basic and more complicated math can do with sound. Unless the ones in Subtractor are the most usable ones ~ after all, they probably tested it all; like what's useful and such.
I wrote something here: viewtopic.php?f=48&t=7507468&hilit=math

Download it here: https://socalabs.com/developer-tools/maths/

And Serum has a scripting with math stuff AFAIK.
Awesome, gonna check these out tonight!

I heard of Serum, and I think Ni has such synths with scripting, too. (Scripting is yet another feature that would be great in Reason.)

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Loque
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Post 05 Dec 2018

RobC wrote:
05 Dec 2018
Loque wrote:
05 Dec 2018

I wrote something here: viewtopic.php?f=48&t=7507468&hilit=math

Download it here: https://socalabs.com/developer-tools/maths/

And Serum has a scripting with math stuff AFAIK.
Awesome, gonna check these out tonight!

I heard of Serum, and I think Ni has such synths with scripting, too. (Scripting is yet another feature that would be great in Reason.)
Agree to the scripting thing, but it may get complicated. But would be awesome to share some experiences so i shared the phase rotation and some other stuff. Well, i was the only contributor :-(
:reason: 10, Win10 64Bit.

RobC
Posts: 955
Joined: 10 Mar 2018

Post Yesterday

Loque wrote:
05 Dec 2018
RobC wrote:
05 Dec 2018


Awesome, gonna check these out tonight!

I heard of Serum, and I think Ni has such synths with scripting, too. (Scripting is yet another feature that would be great in Reason.)
Agree to the scripting thing, but it may get complicated. But would be awesome to share some experiences so i shared the phase rotation and some other stuff. Well, i was the only contributor :-(
With the frontal cable thing, eventually we might just get to scripting, too!

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