Help! How to recreate Jup-8 Cross-Modulation

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Loque
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10 Sep 2018

I am actually trying to improve my poor sound design skills and looking for interesting patchs and try to re-create them with different synths. While this is quite interesting to learn things about waveforms, filters, envelopes and many more... i am actually struggling with the re-creating of the cross-modulation of the Jup-8 synth. It seem to be some kind of FM, where VCO2 is modulating VCo1. Where Europa cannot intermodulate oscillators i tried it with eXpanse and the sound sucked horrible. Well, there is still Thor i can try.

But i am curious, what exactly is going on with this cross-modulation in the Jup-8? So if anyone has an idea, please let me know.

Here is a patch i was trying to recreate. It is called "Bellz" and uses a square and another rectangle on VCO2 with a semitone offset of 20 (wtf?). And yes, they cross-modulate each other. If you are able to recreate the patch, i am also curious how?

bellz.jpg
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eusti
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10 Sep 2018

Doesn’t Red Rock’s Red 70 offer x-modulation as well? Not sure if it’s the same or what it precisely does so I’m not much help beyond that, I’m afraid.

D.

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selig
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10 Sep 2018

OK, hardly perfect, but this may get you started in the ballpark.
Rotary 1 is for LFO depth, Rotary 2 for X-Mod depth.
J8_Bellz_gr.thor.zip
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Loque
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10 Sep 2018

selig wrote:
10 Sep 2018
OK, hardly perfect, but this may get you started in the ballpark.
Rotary 1 is for LFO depth, Rotary 2 for X-Mod depth.

J8_Bellz_gr.thor.zip
Yea, nice, thanks. The direction is obviously the right one...But this special smooth sound the Jup-8 is creating in this patch seem to be pretty hard to achieve. With oscillator sync it gets really interesting, what Thor is creating here, but it sometimes sounds too much like a chiptune...

From your patch i read, you also think its some kind of FM going on there. I read, that a lot of synths have problems to recreate this cross-modulation due to aliasing. Not sure about this. I can here the same harmonic content in your patch and in the original. I think in the end, its the exact settings that create the sound and a good FM algorithm. Maybe the FM needs some kind of "smooth fade in" instead of just hammering the frequency change into the oscillator and as i read, it seem to be exponential and not linear. Well, just speculating again...

Actually there is no other synth in my arsenal, that can reproduce this sound. Well, that is good, because it makes this synth pretty unique.
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Loque
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10 Sep 2018

eusti wrote:
10 Sep 2018
Doesn’t Red Rock’s Red 70 offer x-modulation as well? Not sure if it’s the same or what it precisely does so I’m not much help beyond that, I’m afraid.

D.
That was a pretty good tip. Not sure what is going on in Red and its frequency bands, but it gets quite close. Since both synths probably do not share the same source wave, it finally sounds very close. Did not invested too much time into the patch yet. Maybe tomorrom more. Thanks!
redisinteresting.zip
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selig
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10 Sep 2018

Loque wrote:
10 Sep 2018
selig wrote:
10 Sep 2018
OK, hardly perfect, but this may get you started in the ballpark.
Rotary 1 is for LFO depth, Rotary 2 for X-Mod depth.

J8_Bellz_gr.thor.zip
Yea, nice, thanks. The direction is obviously the right one...But this special smooth sound the Jup-8 is creating in this patch seem to be pretty hard to achieve. With oscillator sync it gets really interesting, what Thor is creating here, but it sometimes sounds too much like a chiptune...

From your patch i read, you also think its some kind of FM going on there. I read, that a lot of synths have problems to recreate this cross-modulation due to aliasing. Not sure about this. I can here the same harmonic content in your patch and in the original. I think in the end, its the exact settings that create the sound and a good FM algorithm. Maybe the FM needs some kind of "smooth fade in" instead of just hammering the frequency change into the oscillator and as i read, it seem to be exponential and not linear. Well, just speculating again...

Actually there is no other synth in my arsenal, that can reproduce this sound. Well, that is good, because it makes this synth pretty unique.
I don't hear the JP8 sound as "smooth" at all - had difficulty mimicking the grit and nasty aspect of the original, feeling my Thor version was too "nice" and "clean".

As for aliasing, it's really bad - really bad - on your example, so I'm not sure if we're talking about the same thing here.

As for exponential and not linear, again let's be clear on terms. You can do both with Thor. Exponential is "pitch" based, linear is "frequency" based. Exponential changes greatly with the note played because of this, while linear does not (and why FM modulation useful as a synthesis method such as FM synthesis). Try switching from FM to Pitch mod in Thor and hear the difference. Hopefully I did not misunderstand your comment about being "exponential and not linear".

I believe this falls under a similar heading of why you can use a LP filter on one synth and not duplicate the sound with a LP filter on another synth. Then there's the different waveforms used, the actual depths of each modulation source/destination, the actual shape of the envelopes, etc. The subtle differences all add up. Also note, the pulse width of OSC2 makes a pretty big difference too. With an oscilloscope and a few other tools one could get even closer by analyzing the individual components of the patch.

If I had the JP plugin, I'd probably be able to get closer to the actual sound. If I had it next to Reaktor, I might even be able to duplicate it fairly closely across the entire range.
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Loque
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10 Sep 2018

selig wrote:
10 Sep 2018
Loque wrote:
10 Sep 2018


Yea, nice, thanks. The direction is obviously the right one...But this special smooth sound the Jup-8 is creating in this patch seem to be pretty hard to achieve. With oscillator sync it gets really interesting, what Thor is creating here, but it sometimes sounds too much like a chiptune...

From your patch i read, you also think its some kind of FM going on there. I read, that a lot of synths have problems to recreate this cross-modulation due to aliasing. Not sure about this. I can here the same harmonic content in your patch and in the original. I think in the end, its the exact settings that create the sound and a good FM algorithm. Maybe the FM needs some kind of "smooth fade in" instead of just hammering the frequency change into the oscillator and as i read, it seem to be exponential and not linear. Well, just speculating again...

Actually there is no other synth in my arsenal, that can reproduce this sound. Well, that is good, because it makes this synth pretty unique.
I don't hear the JP8 sound as "smooth" at all - had difficulty mimicking the grit and nasty aspect of the original, feeling my Thor version was too "nice" and "clean".

As for aliasing, it's really bad - really bad - on your example, so I'm not sure if we're talking about the same thing here.

As for exponential and not linear, again let's be clear on terms. You can do both with Thor. Exponential is "pitch" based, linear is "frequency" based. Exponential changes greatly with the note played because of this, while linear does not (and why FM modulation useful as a synthesis method such as FM synthesis). Try switching from FM to Pitch mod in Thor and hear the difference. Hopefully I did not misunderstand your comment about being "exponential and not linear".

I believe this falls under a similar heading of why you can use a LP filter on one synth and not duplicate the sound with a LP filter on another synth. Then there's the different waveforms used, the actual depths of each modulation source/destination, the actual shape of the envelopes, etc. The subtle differences all add up. Also note, the pulse width of OSC2 makes a pretty big difference too. With an oscilloscope and a few other tools one could get even closer by analyzing the individual components of the patch.

If I had the JP plugin, I'd probably be able to get closer to the actual sound. If I had it next to Reaktor, I might even be able to duplicate it fairly closely across the entire range.
Maybe we have a different understanding of "smooth". IMO the sound of the Jup8 is smooth, it is not audible modulating, it sounds just like a clean sound to me. Well, maybe my ears...dunno. Or maybe you understand with "gritty" that fm sound...

Fo exponential/linear...serisoulsy i have no clue about it. Just read that and i know, that VK-2 can do both. Interesting, that exponential seems to be "pitch"...

Yea, in the end, everything needs to fit. I already checked that Jup8 has not a digital square/rectangle - can be easily recreated with Europa or eXpanse. And the envelope, filters and so on do the rest. I find it quite hard to re-create the filter response with Europa or eXpanse without having any clue of what the filter is actually doing. I think you know, that you can create your own filters with Europa and eXpanse. I really liked the editor in Spectra, but well, thats the editor in Spectra... So, yes everything needs to fit toexactly recreate the sound. I already noticed that its not possible to recreate everything into the last piece of the sound, but you can get quite close. But man, this thing made me mad....I also noticed, that the response is different through keyboard range. Maybe it is because the VCOs are out of tune, but it seems they are just not 100% on keyboard tracking too.

Thanks for your help.
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selig
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10 Sep 2018

As always, when trying to re-create a patch from one synth with another it's best to break things down into the smallest parts as possible, matching those then moving on.

For this patch, I'd first check OSC1 with the filter wide open, and same for OSC2, choosing waveforms that match as closely as possible. I'd also make sure the levels were the same so you will be better able to compare. Then add the filter and see how close you can make that. Then add the cross modulation, etc. adding things one at a time and in some cases turning others off when you add a new element. For example, it may be easier to get the cross modulation amount right with the filters off on both patches. The idea is to eliminate as many variables as possible and set each control on it's own, getting them as close as possible before adding the other elements back in. Finally, add the LFO effect and get the Rate and Delay Time matched up nicely.

It's not that complicated doing it this way, assuming of course the synth you choose to re-create the patch has the required elements and ranges. Sometimes it will be almost exact, sometimes just "close". For example, I've got several of my old DX7 and even DX1 patches to match in Thor, while others simply could not be recreated due to limits of Thor.

Though I used the original JP8 extensively for a few years, this was the mid 80s and that was a long time ago! If the Arturia plugin wasn't so expensive I'd grab it and recreate the patch closer to the original. Maybe I'll check out the demo - could be a fun synth to have around.

UPDATE: just checked - it's on sale for around $75 USD right now. Tempting. Very tempting…
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Loque
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10 Sep 2018

selig wrote:
10 Sep 2018
If the Arturia plugin wasn't so expensive I'd grab it and recreate the patch closer to the original. Maybe I'll check out the demo - could be a fun synth to have around.

UPDATE: just checked - it's on sale for around $75 USD right now. Tempting. Very tempting…
Yea, the price is quite heavy...i saw them uber cheap, so i bought them. But it takes time to go through them and learn them. I got the V5 bundle and those old synths sound very nice, so i am curious why they sound so nice...

Maybe i just had big luck when i bought them, i payed around 250 for the bundle including the Soundtoys bundle and now the update costs around 250 :-)
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aeox
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10 Sep 2018

selig wrote:
10 Sep 2018
Though I used the original JP8 extensively for a few years, this was the mid 80s and that was a long time ago! If the Arturia plugin wasn't so expensive I'd grab it and recreate the patch closer to the original. Maybe I'll check out the demo - could be a fun synth to have around.
Not sure on accuracy, but you could check out

https://www.native-instruments.com/en/r ... show/5797/

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Loque
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10 Sep 2018

aeox wrote:
10 Sep 2018
selig wrote:
10 Sep 2018
Though I used the original JP8 extensively for a few years, this was the mid 80s and that was a long time ago! If the Arturia plugin wasn't so expensive I'd grab it and recreate the patch closer to the original. Maybe I'll check out the demo - could be a fun synth to have around.
Not sure on accuracy, but you could check out

https://www.native-instruments.com/en/r ... show/5797/
Thanks for that hint. It behavious very different to the Arturia version but it sounds quite close if it gets tweaked a bit. I gonna check, if i can see whats going on inside the cross modulation. :thumbs_up:

Hum...it is a simple FM....weird...
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Loque
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10 Sep 2018

Just playing around with Thor and its pitch modulation Its getting close, but its not finally their. But i am again suprised of Thor's sound quality which is still pretty amazing. It just lacks a few features, but that do others synths too.

For anyone whos interested, here is my latest try to recreate the sound.
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selig
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11 Sep 2018

Messed around with the demo, and have a few further observations.

The "Bellz" preset has reverb and delay, so don't forget that (I didn't add any FX in the Thor patch I created).
I didn't have oscillator sync enabled on my patch, but I'm not able to get Thor to get the same effect from BOTH cross mod AND Osc sync. Not sure what's going on with the old JP, but it's doing it's own thing for sure!

Got everything matched by using the JP8 demo EXCEPT that one quality, which is not uncommon when trying to get one synth to copy another (especially when combining multiple routings simultaneously).


Notes:
•The root tuning is off on this patch compared to others, due to the effect of the cross mod. This is an example of something you only notice when comparing the two side by side.
•The envelops in the JP8 are more exponential than in Thor, which is easy to compensate for using the mod matrix. They are closer to the Subtractor envelops FWIW.
•The Thor's LP filters don't open up as much at "max" as the JP8 plugin.
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Loque
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11 Sep 2018

selig wrote:
11 Sep 2018
Messed around with the demo, and have a few further observations.

The "Bellz" preset has reverb and delay, so don't forget that (I didn't add any FX in the Thor patch I created).
I didn't have oscillator sync enabled on my patch, but I'm not able to get Thor to get the same effect from BOTH cross mod AND Osc sync. Not sure what's going on with the old JP, but it's doing it's own thing for sure!

Got everything matched by using the JP8 demo EXCEPT that one quality, which is not uncommon when trying to get one synth to copy another (especially when combining multiple routings simultaneously).
Yea, i started as easy as possible.
1. Just check the pure waves and recreate them as accurate as possible
2. Check tuning and oscillators, how they work together (sync and other possible stuff, loudness through envelopes and so on)
3. Got stucked in this cross-modulation thing :-D

Yea, pretty good sound synth is this and there are a few, that are really unique.
selig wrote:
11 Sep 2018
Notes:
•The root tuning is off on this patch compared to others, due to the effect of the cross mod. This is an example of something you only notice when comparing the two side by side.
•The envelops in the JP8 are more exponential than in Thor, which is easy to compensate for using the mod matrix. They are closer to the Subtractor envelops FWIW.
•The Thor's LP filters don't open up as much at "max" as the JP8 plugin.
Oh, i missed that root tuning thing... Yea, the filters sound very different, so i tried my "own" in Europa, but failed. The filter in Jup looks and sounds to me, like there is some saturation going on, but maybe my ears and eyes fooled me ;-)


While trying to reproduce this cross-modulation with other synths including Thor, i thought, that this cross modulation could have a LP filter before it is modulating the VCO1, because it just does not sound "harsh" enough for that kind of modulation. If i use a filter outout in Thor, it sounds much smoother so maybe it is just a normal sine-type-based-FM what is really going on and for what i read, it is pitch-based/pseudo-fm or some kind of rm. Not sure, what this exactly means.

Btw, the cheapest offer i actually found for the V bundle is something around 380€, boxed, so there may be additional shipping or 400€ for the full package to download.
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selig
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11 Sep 2018

Loque wrote:
11 Sep 2018
Yea, i started as easy as possible.
1. Just check the pure waves and recreate them as accurate as possible
2. Check tuning and oscillators, how they work together (sync and other possible stuff, loudness through envelopes and so on)
3. Got stucked in this cross-modulation thing :-D

Yea, pretty good sound synth is this and there are a few, that are really unique.

Oh, i missed that root tuning thing... Yea, the filters sound very different, so i tried my "own" in Europa, but failed. The filter in Jup looks and sounds to me, like there is some saturation going on, but maybe my ears and eyes fooled me ;-)

While trying to reproduce this cross-modulation with other synths including Thor, i thought, that this cross modulation could have a LP filter before it is modulating the VCO1, because it just does not sound "harsh" enough for that kind of modulation. If i use a filter outout in Thor, it sounds much smoother so maybe it is just a normal sine-type-based-FM what is really going on and for what i read, it is pitch-based/pseudo-fm or some kind of rm. Not sure, what this exactly means.

Btw, the cheapest offer i actually found for the V bundle is something around 380€, boxed, so there may be additional shipping or 400€ for the full package to download.
I set the pulse width amount by looking at a scope - pretty easy to match that way!
You can also learn a lot by looking at the spectrum display and running white noise through it (OSC2). You'll see the filters (both HP and LP) do not open all the way, even when "pushed" by modulation. You can also see the sine wave is far from perfect/clean, but does not change when you increase the OSC2 mix level. This indicates there is no saturation coming from the filter, because if there was you would see the harmonics on a sine wave increase as you increased level coming into the filter.

You can also reveal more about cross modulation by looking at the spectrum display, noting that there appears to be some side-bands created with this effect (additional frequencies BELOW the original pitch). This is actually more similar to how pitch (exponential) modulation works in Thor and other synths - but there's still something else going on. I even tried a bunch of different things in Reaktor, where I have pretty much total control, and still can't get anything like what's happening in the JP8. Reminds me of trying to mimic the Feedback Oscillator in the JP8000 (fail).
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Loque
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11 Sep 2018

selig wrote:
11 Sep 2018
... trying to mimic the Feedback Oscillator in the JP8000 ...
I read that post in the past from you...hum...wtf is going on there?

I gonna check that filter response now...good tip with the noise. Maybe i can recreate it...But that is probably again only one part of the puzzle.

Thanks again!
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