The myth of guitar speaker distortion

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Marco Raaphorst
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21 Jun 2018

needs work... sorry

(original post edited)

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Loque
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21 Jun 2018

Marco Raaphorst wrote:
21 Jun 2018
needs work... sorry

(original post edited)
So...this is the myth :? I got it :o
Reason12, Win10

EdGrip
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23 Jun 2018

Great thread, would read again.

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Marco Raaphorst
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23 Jun 2018

It always comes down to this: stop thinking, start listening and playing... :D

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zabukowski
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23 Jun 2018

This might be OT, but i would strongly recommend to read tech notes (page 12-13) from this manual. This is the manual of Egnater Rebel tube amps - absolutely the best tube amp i've ever owned in all aspects. Bruce Egnater is a real genius and these tech notes are a must read for any guitarist (convinced that his sound is the best on the world) - especially part about sound dispersion. Having that in mind, Egnater cabinets are actually the only ones you can turn directly to your head and still kind of enjoy the sound, haha.

http://www.egnateramps.com/manuals/Rebel30Combos.pdf

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Marco Raaphorst
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23 Jun 2018

zabukowski wrote:
23 Jun 2018
This might be OT, but i would strongly recommend to read tech notes (page 12-13) from this manual. This is the manual of Egnater Rebel tube amps - absolutely the best tube amp i've ever owned in all aspects. Bruce Egnater is a real genius and these tech notes are a must read for any guitarist (convinced that his sound is the best on the world) - especially part about sound dispersion. Having that in mind, Egnater cabinets are actually the only ones you can turn directly to your head and still kind of enjoy the sound, haha.

http://www.egnateramps.com/manuals/Rebel30Combos.pdf
thanks! will read.

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selig
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23 Jun 2018

zabukowski wrote:This might be OT, but i would strongly recommend to read tech notes (page 12-13) from this manual. This is the manual of Egnater Rebel tube amps - absolutely the best tube amp i've ever owned in all aspects. Bruce Egnater is a real genius and these tech notes are a must read for any guitarist (convinced that his sound is the best on the world) - especially part about sound dispersion. Having that in mind, Egnater cabinets are actually the only ones you can turn directly to your head and still kind of enjoy the sound, haha.

http://www.egnateramps.com/manuals/Rebel30Combos.pdf
Not heard of these, and I thought I’d seen EVERY amp known to man working in Nashville for over 30 years!

My long time favorite boutique amp is Goodsell, fwiw.
http://www.goodsellamps.com
Amazing reverb and tremolo too!

Back to your link, quote:
“Did you consider why the pros mic a speaker from the edge instead of in the center? “

Actually, most pros I’ve seen mic the cone more often in the center. But I digress…

First thing I ever learned about speakers was that larger speakers “beam” more than smaller. If you use a 12” cone, it is VERY directional at high frequencies. Odd he has to explain this to guitar players (and I’m not a guitar player).

If you’ve never done the following experiment, I STRONGLY suggest everyone give it a try at least once. When I show this to other engineers and guitar players, even those who already understand “beaming”, they are usually impressed.

The Fun:
Get an amp, a mic (Shure 57 is great for this), some closed back phones, and a source of white noise (a ReAmp would also be handy at this point). Run the noise through the amp at the most neutral tone setting, and at a fairly low level (low enough to talk over it).

With your phones on, and listening to the microphone signal in the phones, get the listening volume at a comfortably loud level when the mic is right in front of the speaker. The goal here is to make sure the level in your phones masks any sound bleeding in from the amp/room.

First experiment:
Hold the mic a few inches from the front of the cabinet, but not in front of the speaker. Slowly move it across the center of the speaker to the other side, noting how the tone and volume changes. Move the mic back a few inches and repeat, and repeat again a few feet back.

What I heard was a VERY tight beam of high frequencies and volume around the center of the cone, about a 3-6” circle of sound coming from the center - and this “beam” didn’t change much even a few feet out!

This extreme beaming will generally be revealing to most who’ve not tried it before, and it’s still impressive even for those who have.

One takeaway for me is that there isn’t one “tone” coming from an amp/speaker, even if you don’t close mic it. Another is the close or far, the MOST important factor will be LOCATION of the mic in relation to the cone.

This leads to another observation about a possible “off axis” mic myth. Here’s the test: aim the mic at the speaker on axis and listen to the sound. Now pivot the mic so it’s off axis - what happens? In 99% of the cases I’ve observed (IRL and online), the mic MOVES to a different cone position, because the mic clip PIVOTS.
Since we’ve already established how much the tone can change in a few inches, is it any wonder the tone changes when you swing the front of the mic a few inches away from it’s original position?

Most folks start with the mic in the center of the cone, then pivot the mic “off axis” and the diaphragm ends up in front of the EDGE of the cone, leading to believe you get a more mellow tone “off axis”, which what is happening in most cases is you are MOVING the mic to the edge of the speaker where in fact you DO get a more mellow tone.

NOW, try this (it’s not easy to do). Start with the mic around the center of the cone and listen, then HOLD the head (diaphragm) of the mic in EXACTLY the same position in 3D space as you turn the mic body “off axis” - not much different, right? I hear a very slight difference when doing this, leading me to have never used “off axis” micing ever since, because I have SO much more control over tone with mic POSITION.

This also illustrates why it’s not accurate to think of a microphone as a flashlight or a camera, that “looks” at a certain area. This is because if you aim a mic at a speaker cone 6” away, then turn it 90° and aim it at the wall while keeping the diaphragm EXACTLY in the same position in 3D space, it sounds VERY similar despite it now “looking” at a wall and not at the speaker at all!

That is to say, it’s FAR more important what a mic is CLOSEST to than what it’s AIMED at (unless it’s hyper-cardioid or shotgun, two types you’re not likely to encounter in a studio). And it also shows that anywhere from 1” to a few feet from the speaker all sound about the same, and is why that for repeatability and limiting bleed most folks put the mic right up to the speaker grill (and if using an ambient mic they put it a significant distance from the amp if possible).

So back to the first point: in most cases it’s better IMO to start around the center of the cone to avoid having to later add EQ to brighten tone. Many modern styles need bright tones to compete with drums/synths etc. And it’s far easier (and more natural sounding) to tame a bright tone down after recording than to try to add brightness back where there is none. Even so, most of the time I don’t have to do that, and I’m more often adding a bit more mid/high range to guitar tones in the final mix to cut through busy mixes. And even with a guitarist going for a darker tone, the center still works most of the time because most know to listen to the amp head on when setting tone for the studio - hopefully they know this… ;)

Finally, especially when tracking but also to not annoy the neighbors, micing from the center area gives you more initial level to work with, which means you can keep the amp volume down (if your amp can still give you the desired tone) and keep bleed into other instruments and your neighbor’s bedroom to a minimum!


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Marco Raaphorst
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23 Jun 2018

Must try that technique myself Selig. Interesting!

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normen
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23 Jun 2018

selig wrote:
23 Jun 2018
That is to say, it’s FAR more important what a mic is CLOSEST to than what it’s AIMED at (unless it’s hyper-cardioid or shotgun, two types you’re not likely to encounter in a studio).
Totally this. You can even point the mic away from the cone and for most proper mics the change isn't as big as when you're moving the mic out of the main axis center.

I kind of always admired engineers who apparently would really "click" at some point when their guy moves the mic around in front of the amp and decide "thats the shit" and it actually works out until the end of a mix, maybe only with a bit of compression and reverb. Then again I've seen a lot who make a fuss about the amp and cab and later turn the sound into something completely different with limiters, maximizers, exciters and whatnot that I failed to see the point of the initial work :)

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selig
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23 Jun 2018

normen wrote:
selig wrote:
23 Jun 2018
That is to say, it’s FAR more important what a mic is CLOSEST to than what it’s AIMED at (unless it’s hyper-cardioid or shotgun, two types you’re not likely to encounter in a studio).
Totally this. You can even point the mic away from the cone and for most proper mics the change isn't as big as when you're moving the mic out of the main axis center.

I kind of always admired engineers who apparently would really "click" at some point when their guy moves the mic around in front of the amp and decide "thats the shit" and it actually works out until the end of a mix, maybe only with a bit of compression and reverb. Then again I've seen a lot who make a fuss about the amp and cab and later turn the sound into something completely different with limiters, maximizers, exciters and whatnot that I failed to see the point of the initial work :)
Couldn’t agree more. Especially with electric guitars, the primary job of the engineer is to capture the tone you’re given, not fix it or change it. I don’t mind a guitarist spending time exploring tone options (most are quick about it), but engineers should know how to capture what they’re given without spending hours moving mics by inches etc. (IMO, as always).

The only time I’ve seen folks get lost in tonal explorations is when they work in a new studio that has tons of cool amps to play with - and even then, it’s often time (expensive time at that) wasted because in the end most guitarists use what they know.

And apologies Marco for derailing your initial thread - maybe we should re-title it and let you start a new one when you’re ready to address speaker distortion myths?
;)


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normen
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23 Jun 2018

selig wrote:
23 Jun 2018
Couldn’t agree more. Especially with electric guitars, the primary job of the engineer is to capture the tone you’re given, not fix it or change it.
Yeah, to me thats always been the main thing. For me as a live engineer the art happens on stage and I am supposed to understand what they want to do and translate it best to the audience.

Theres many "posers" (probably has the completely wrong connotations but I'll go with that word now - I'd call them "Blender" in german) who just make a fuss about what they do being so much of an art that they can justify all kids of things with that - preferably the "blame the tools" game. And sadly it works on those who don't have an idea what they're actually doing - like the big SSL desk impresses in the studio.

But then yeah, I have seen some people who can actually do that shit - put their nose into every musicians gear and sound and somehow have the feel to decide for the right gear to use, get the dials to the ideal position, not piss anybody off and make it all work together beautifully. Most of the time they're not really technical guys - should I say most of the time? Really I know maybe one and a half of those :)

In the end thats kind of the "myth" of the audio engineer though I guess - it's simply not realistic to expect that, like the Einstein genius inventing things in a vacuum or the lone hero saving the day. But thats what the posers would like to be - failing to take the chance to really get gud and instead ending up with a limited amount of choices that somehow work the "magical" way.

What did I want to say? Right - audio engineers should talk less and get stuff done more ;)

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selig
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23 Jun 2018

Normen, I was on a session once where the engineer told the drummer what bass drum head to bring/use (and it wasn’t the head he normally uses).

I asked the drummer what he does in these cases, and he basically (and humbly) said “I’m here to serve”.

Besides, I guess you can then blame the engineer if the sound isn’t working. ;)

The drummer was Matt Chamberlain, a drummer I would NEVER ask to do ANYTHING differently. The engineer shall go unnamed…


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normen
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23 Jun 2018

selig wrote:
23 Jun 2018
Normen, I was on a session once where the engineer told the drummer what bass drum head to bring/use (and it wasn’t the head he normally uses).

I asked the drummer what he does in these cases, and he basically (and humbly) said “I’m here to serve”.

Besides, I guess you can then blame the engineer if the sound isn’t working. ;)

The drummer was Matt Chamberlain, a drummer I would NEVER ask to do ANYTHING differently. The engineer shall go unnamed…


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Of course theres exceptions, bass players for example. Always tell the bass player what to do. ;)

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selig
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23 Jun 2018

normen wrote:
selig wrote:
23 Jun 2018
Normen, I was on a session once where the engineer told the drummer what bass drum head to bring/use (and it wasn’t the head he normally uses).

I asked the drummer what he does in these cases, and he basically (and humbly) said “I’m here to serve”.

Besides, I guess you can then blame the engineer if the sound isn’t working. ;)

The drummer was Matt Chamberlain, a drummer I would NEVER ask to do ANYTHING differently. The engineer shall go unnamed…


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Of course theres exceptions, bassist for example. Always tell the bassist what to do. ;)
Ha - literal LOL moment (good thing I wasn’t taking a drink)!
:)


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strangers
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23 Jun 2018

normen wrote:
23 Jun 2018
Of course theres exceptions, bass players for example. Always tell the bass player what to do. ;)
You gained another real life LOL from me. I could only imagine the stories engineers have about bands. On the other side of the desk, I've played with a fair share of bands where the bassist was almost always the source of the stories. A bassist obsessed with reverb has been my most puzzling nightmare. If I had photoshop, I'd leave a photo of a bandaid package re-labeled as Reverb right below this.

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normen
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23 Jun 2018

strangers wrote:
23 Jun 2018
normen wrote:
23 Jun 2018
Of course theres exceptions, bass players for example. Always tell the bass player what to do. ;)
You gained another real life LOL from me. I could only imagine the stories engineers have about bands. On the other side of the desk, I've played with a fair share of bands where the bassist was almost always the source of the stories. A bassist obsessed with reverb has been my most puzzling nightmare. If I had photoshop, I'd leave a photo of a bandaid package re-labeled as Reverb right below this.
Well that was a rl lol from me now. Reverb... classic. :lol:

I mean obvs it's a stereotype - "the bassist" is sometimes also playing the trumpet or recorder. ;) I guess it's because some people think they can make up for their lack of talent by removing a few strings.. But really shout out to all bass players - you are the unsung heroes of music and I depend on you on stage as an engineer :)

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Noplan
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24 Jun 2018

Always tell the bass player what to do.
A, A, A, A, F, F, F, F, G, G, G, G, G, G, G, G, G...

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Marco Raaphorst
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24 Jun 2018

I love bass players. They can totally change the tonality and groove of music.

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normen
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24 Jun 2018

Marco Raaphorst wrote:
24 Jun 2018
I love bass players. They can totally change the tonality and groove of music.
"Change the tonality" - thats the thing. Because they have the fundamental root note with the most energy in their hands all other notes "pull" towards that tonal center. Meaning if everything is in tune but the bass is out of tune then everything else will sound strange, not the bass. Same with singers, they most of the time automatically go with the note that the whole stage is shaking at, not what the guitar or synth is throwing at them through the monitor.

This results in a typical rock band issue: The bassist pulls the stings very hard, the note goes up, the singer follows and suddenly sounds off compared to the harmony instruments.

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Marco Raaphorst
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24 Jun 2018

normen wrote:
24 Jun 2018
Marco Raaphorst wrote:
24 Jun 2018
I love bass players. They can totally change the tonality and groove of music.
"Change the tonality" - thats the thing. Because they have the fundamental root note with the most energy in their hands all other notes "pull" towards that tonal center. Meaning if everything is in tune but the bass is out of tune then everything else will sound strange, not the bass. Same with singers, they most of the time automatically go with the note that the whole stage is shaking at, not what the guitar or synth is throwing at them through the monitor.

This results in a typical rock band issue: The bassist pulls the stings very hard, the note goes up, the singer follows and suddenly sounds off compared to the harmony instruments.
I love it when the bass note is not the root!

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normen
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24 Jun 2018

Marco Raaphorst wrote:
24 Jun 2018
I love it when the bass note is not the root!
Well it doesn't matter if it's the actual root note (which is also just a thing of definition ;)) it's more about the frequency range and the resulting energy.

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