My Approach to Setting Levels in Propellerhead's Reason

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Voyager
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15 Jun 2018

selig wrote:
15 Jun 2018
When your mix is too hot, quickest solution is to lower Master Fader if not using dither on insert, or lower Makeup Gain on Master Compressor if using. Then the NEXT time you start a similar project try a lower reference level.


So basically in the mixing process if you're noticing you're too hot you never readjust your peak level reference starting point, correct ?

selig wrote:
15 Jun 2018
Sometimes, if there is no other way to compensate for an increased/decreased level due to additional processing (like when using Saturation Knob), I'll use Selig Gain for that since I can quickly see the peak level while making adjustments.
:)


So everytime you add additional effects to the track or whatever that may increase or decrease the peak level you then always reajust the peak level to get to the initial -12dBFS ?
jimmyklane wrote:
15 Jun 2018

CORRECT if you leave headroom in the mix to begin with you won’t need any sort of brickwall limiter


I don't get the idea here, can you develop please ?

Personally even when i have headroom of 4-5dBFS and because of the style of music i'm doing i'm still applying a brickwall limiter. Do you mean i'm doing something wrong ?
jimmyklane wrote:
15 Jun 2018

A good use for the input gain knob is to properly drive the compressor/gate. You may notice that you cannot always get much compression or your gate will “chatter” even when set at extremes. Selig May have another answer, but this is generally what I use it for


Could you develop and/or formulating the idea differently ?

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15 Jun 2018

jimmyklane wrote:
15 Jun 2018
Voyager wrote:
14 Jun 2018

3. Do this means that while mixing you never touch your master fader and thus leaving it always at 0dB unity ?

CORRECT if you leave headroom in the mix to begin with you won’t need any sort of brickwall limiter or anything other than DESIRED processing at the mix bus

4. In what condition would you use the ssl gain input knob ? ( because i notice on your video that they're all unused )
A good use for the input gain knob is to properly drive the compressor/gate. You may notice that you cannot always get much compression or your gate will “chatter” even when set at extremes. Selig May have another answer, but this is generally what I use it for
My answer is the same as before - when you have good levels to begin with, you won't need to "fix" them at this late stage. I've always been able to get perfect response from the dynamics section with my reference levels.

Again, this is the basic operating level suggested by the Reason Manual for all audio tracks, and by the newer patches in the FSB (of which I contributed, which is where this information comes from).

From the Operation Manual PDF (Page 139):
Setting input level(s)
Before you start recording audio on the track it’s very important to set correct input level(s). The input signal should be loud enough to minimize noise and provide high quality, but not so loud that it causes clipping and distortion.
If you’re using a 24-bit audio interface (recommended), aim at having the level of the input signal around -12dB on the track Input Meter according to the picture below. For 16-bit audio interfaces you may want to raise the level an- other couple of dB’s.
“Safe” input level ~ -12dB (first yellow LEDs lit)


Even when using Balance with clip safe, they suggest the same thing:
We recommend that you aim at -12dB maximum recording level, even if you are using the Clip Safe function. Recording high input levels will result in very loud audio on the track, which could be problematic to mix with the rest of the instrument tracks in your song.
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jimmyklane
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15 Jun 2018

I’ve got my converters calibrated to +4dBu=-18dBFS....which is set here because I like to drive many of my processors pretty hot. I’ve got a few special “pad cables” that I’ve built, since I’ve not been satisfied with stereo pots (the high-end stereo switches are a different story, but pricey for a simple passive attenuators).

I use the K-12 system, so my master fader nor my monitor volume literally never changes. It took quite a lot of trouble and effort to set this up, had to borrow an earthworks M30 for proper measurements and calibration of my monitors. My console gives a variable level sine, which was invaluable....but any editing program can generate one.

In Reason, I am a bit tied to the old way of working with the old Mitsubishi reel-to-reel digital machines where you maximized input levels and set the return levels at the console....it’s completely unnecessary nowadays, and I know this, but because I’m always driving analog equipment at +20dBu or above (as that’s the sound I like!) it’s a little easier for me personally to drive the converters closer to full-scale.

In closing: I completely agree with all you’ve said and demonstrated....it just needs tweaking for a mostly analog workflow like mine.
DAW: Reason 12

SAMPLERS: Akai MPC 2000, E-mu SP1200, E-Mu e5000Ultra, Ensoniq EPS 16+, Akai S950, Maschine

SYNTHS: Mostly classic Polysynths and more modern Monosynths. All are mostly food for my samplers!

www.soundcloud.com/jimmyklane

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selig
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15 Jun 2018

jimmyklane wrote:I’ve got my converters calibrated to +4dBu=-18dBFS....which is set here because I like to drive many of my processors pretty hot. I’ve got a few special “pad cables” that I’ve built, since I’ve not been satisfied with stereo pots (the high-end stereo switches are a different story, but pricey for a simple passive attenuators).

I use the K-12 system, so my master fader nor my monitor volume literally never changes. It took quite a lot of trouble and effort to set this up, had to borrow an earthworks M30 for proper measurements and calibration of my monitors. My console gives a variable level sine, which was invaluable....but any editing program can generate one.

In Reason, I am a bit tied to the old way of working with the old Mitsubishi reel-to-reel digital machines where you maximized input levels and set the return levels at the console....it’s completely unnecessary nowadays, and I know this, but because I’m always driving analog equipment at +20dBu or above (as that’s the sound I like!) it’s a little easier for me personally to drive the converters closer to full-scale.

In closing: I completely agree with all you’ve said and demonstrated....it just needs tweaking for a mostly analog workflow like mine.
Since you’re not mixing in the digital domain, none of what I describe would apply to you, right?



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15 Jun 2018

Selig and Jimmy, on the top of this thread i've post a new message with few questions for respectively both of you. I'll appreciate if you can have a look at it just to clear up my mind, thanks :redface:

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15 Jun 2018

RandomSkratch wrote:Hey Selig,

Have you ever seen or used the pink noise trick for setting levels? I've seen it done a few times on YouTube videos where you play pink noise at the set reference level you want to hit and then you bring in each element just to the point of being audible over the noise. I guess the idea is that if your song contains elements that fill the spectrum equally, this supposedly creates a well balanced rough mix that will reach your intended level. Not sure how accurate this technique is though. Thoughts?
Well, to start with, you can use my level setting method AND the pink noise mixing method as they are not mutually exclusive.

My levels are set from the first track I add, and I’m finished with this by the time I actually start mixing.

I’ve never used this approach - I think it’s more of an ear-training thing, to get you to hear what your eventual goal will sound like. It’s only a way of getting started, and getting started isn’t all that difficult.

I also believe that you get good at what you practice. So if you practice mixing by ear, you get good at that. If you practice mixing by pink noise, you get good at that.

IMO, mixing by ear is much more fun than using noise…
;)


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selig
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15 Jun 2018

Voyager wrote:Selig and Jimmy, on the top of this thread i've post a new message with few questions for respectively both of you. I'll appreciate if you can have a look at it just to clear up my mind, thanks :redface:
You lost me there: my post is the “top of this thread”. Are you saying you created a new thread? (Link please, if so). I’d love to address your questions, why not post here?


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15 Jun 2018

My apologies, i forget to specify on the top of this thread "of this second page". :oops:
Last edited by Voyager on 15 Jun 2018, edited 2 times in total.

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selig
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15 Jun 2018

Voyager wrote:My apologies, i forget to specify on the top of this thread "of this second page". :oops:
Sorry, I’m using Tapatalk and there are no pages. Again, why not just post here in the conversation?


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15 Jun 2018

selig wrote:
15 Jun 2018
Voyager wrote:My apologies, i forget to specify on the top of this thread "of this second page". :oops:

Sorry, I’m using Tapatalk and there are no pages. Again, why not just post here in the conversation?
I did, it's just the one before your first answer to Jimmy :)

Btw, it would be nice if our messages add some numbers to them like some other forum have. So when you link the number of the post in your message and click on it it act as an anchor and bring you to the specific message.

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selig
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15 Jun 2018

Voyager wrote:
selig wrote:
15 Jun 2018

Sorry, I’m using Tapatalk and there are no pages. Again, why not just post here in the conversation?
I did, it's just the one before your first answer to Jimmy :)

Btw, it would be nice if our messages add some numbers to them like some other forum have. So when you link the number of the post in your message and click on it it act as an anchor and bring you to the specific message.
Your message above is #35, this one is #36. What # are you talking about?



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15 Jun 2018

selig wrote:
15 Jun 2018
Voyager wrote:
I did, it's just the one before your first answer to Jimmy :)

Btw, it would be nice if our messages add some numbers to them like some other forum have. So when you link the number of the post in your message and click on it it act as an anchor and bring you to the specific message.
Your message above is #35, this one is #36. What # are you talking about?
Oh you got numbers in that Tapatalk application ?!

So the post number is 26.

jimmyklane
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15 Jun 2018

selig wrote:
15 Jun 2018

Since you’re not mixing in the digital domain, none of what I describe would apply to you, right?
I am actually hybrid. I still use an ancient (but very suitable for my purposes O2Rv2)....when I record I have one ASIO driver that routes everything through the patchbay and I record “wet” with effects coming in on seperate tracks....when I mix it’s all done digitally with a completely different set of audio cards, with only the aux sends sent as analog outputs.

It is all left over from my actual commercial studio when these things were cutting edge. I can still get the sounds I want, and people seem to like my mixes, so I stick with it. Setting levels to digital is VERY important in my workflow.

(I do have a passive analog summing device that I built on my own, but don’t use it often as it’s not very convenient to patch)
DAW: Reason 12

SAMPLERS: Akai MPC 2000, E-mu SP1200, E-Mu e5000Ultra, Ensoniq EPS 16+, Akai S950, Maschine

SYNTHS: Mostly classic Polysynths and more modern Monosynths. All are mostly food for my samplers!

www.soundcloud.com/jimmyklane

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selig
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15 Jun 2018

Voyager wrote:
selig wrote:
15 Jun 2018
When your mix is too hot, quickest solution is to lower Master Fader if not using dither on insert, or lower Makeup Gain on Master Compressor if using. Then the NEXT time you start a similar project try a lower reference level.


So basically in the mixing process if you're noticing you're too hot you never readjust your peak level reference starting point, correct ?

selig wrote:
15 Jun 2018
Sometimes, if there is no other way to compensate for an increased/decreased level due to additional processing (like when using Saturation Knob), I'll use Selig Gain for that since I can quickly see the peak level while making adjustments.
:)


So everytime you add additional effects to the track or whatever that may increase or decrease the peak level you then always reajust the peak level to get to the initial -12dBFS ?
You can certainly go back and adjust your starting levels if your mix is too hot. I would say it depends on whether you are mixing something that needs to be out the door, or whether you have time to stop mixing and explore a technique - your call.

Yes, pretty much when I add a new processor (not an “effect” like delay or reverb) I compensate for any gain change. This is so I can properly/fairly compare before/after when bypassing (so the level won’t jump), so I can removed any device and not affect my channel gain, and because the whole idea of using a peak reference level is to introduce all signals into the mixer at the same level. For very minor changes I may not bother compensating, depending on the circumstances - it’s not an absolute rule, I just find it to be helpful in most of the cases.
L(


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selig
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15 Jun 2018

jimmyklane wrote:
selig wrote:
15 Jun 2018

Since you’re not mixing in the digital domain, none of what I describe would apply to you, right?
I am actually hybrid. I still use an ancient (but very suitable for my purposes O2Rv2)....when I record I have one ASIO driver that routes everything through the patchbay and I record “wet” with effects coming in on seperate tracks....when I mix it’s all done digitally with a completely different set of audio cards, with only the aux sends sent as analog outputs.

It is all left over from my actual commercial studio when these things were cutting edge. I can still get the sounds I want, and people seem to like my mixes, so I stick with it. Setting levels to digital is VERY important in my workflow.

(I do have a passive analog summing device that I built on my own, but don’t use it often as it’s not very convenient to patch)
So not mixing in Reason?


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jimmyklane
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15 Jun 2018

selig wrote:
15 Jun 2018
jimmyklane wrote:
I am actually hybrid. I still use an ancient (but very suitable for my purposes O2Rv2)....when I record I have one ASIO driver that routes everything through the patchbay and I record “wet” with effects coming in on seperate tracks....when I mix it’s all done digitally with a completely different set of audio cards, with only the aux sends sent as analog outputs.

It is all left over from my actual commercial studio when these things were cutting edge. I can still get the sounds I want, and people seem to like my mixes, so I stick with it. Setting levels to digital is VERY important in my workflow.

(I do have a passive analog summing device that I built on my own, but don’t use it often as it’s not very convenient to patch)
So not mixing in Reason?


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LOL! You win.
DAW: Reason 12

SAMPLERS: Akai MPC 2000, E-mu SP1200, E-Mu e5000Ultra, Ensoniq EPS 16+, Akai S950, Maschine

SYNTHS: Mostly classic Polysynths and more modern Monosynths. All are mostly food for my samplers!

www.soundcloud.com/jimmyklane

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selig
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15 Jun 2018

jimmyklane wrote:
selig wrote:
15 Jun 2018
So not mixing in Reason?


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LOL! You win.
Oh boy, oh boy, what did I win? ;)
Was this some sort of contest and I didn’t realize it?

I was being totally serious, BTW, not sure if what I said made you think otherwise (apologies if so!).


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jimmyklane
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15 Jun 2018

I still use the SSL’s functionality because the processing (excepting the two SPX-90 units in there) in the O2R is horrendous!

And I was only teasing, it was a sarcastic “you win”...no offense in the least
DAW: Reason 12

SAMPLERS: Akai MPC 2000, E-mu SP1200, E-Mu e5000Ultra, Ensoniq EPS 16+, Akai S950, Maschine

SYNTHS: Mostly classic Polysynths and more modern Monosynths. All are mostly food for my samplers!

www.soundcloud.com/jimmyklane

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selig
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15 Jun 2018

jimmyklane wrote:
15 Jun 2018
I still use the SSL’s functionality because the processing (excepting the two SPX-90 units in there) in the O2R is horrendous!

And I was only teasing, it was a sarcastic “you win”...no offense in the least
I should have asked "are you summing in Reason", because I was wondering how you deal with summing such hot levels (assuming I understood your workflow correctly).
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jimmyklane
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15 Jun 2018

selig wrote:
15 Jun 2018
jimmyklane wrote:
15 Jun 2018
I still use the SSL’s functionality because the processing (excepting the two SPX-90 units in there) in the O2R is horrendous!

And I was only teasing, it was a sarcastic “you win”...no offense in the least
I should have asked "are you summing in Reason", because I was wondering how you deal with summing such hot levels (assuming I understood your workflow correctly).
Right, that’s why the converters are set so conservatively. +22dBu = FS, so I can run pretty hot and get from analog to digital with little trouble. Of course, my faders are often -10/-20 because I’ve got stuff approaching FS, or I simply take the clip level down and sacrifice a few bits. The O2R technically does the summing most of the time, unless I run a fully analog mix....in that case all levels and automation are done in Reason.
DAW: Reason 12

SAMPLERS: Akai MPC 2000, E-mu SP1200, E-Mu e5000Ultra, Ensoniq EPS 16+, Akai S950, Maschine

SYNTHS: Mostly classic Polysynths and more modern Monosynths. All are mostly food for my samplers!

www.soundcloud.com/jimmyklane

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Voyager
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16 Jun 2018

selig wrote:
15 Jun 2018

You can certainly go back and adjust your starting levels if your mix is too hot. I would say it depends on whether you are mixing something that needs to be out the door, or whether you have time to stop mixing and explore a technique - your call.

Yes, pretty much when I add a new processor (not an “effect” like delay or reverb) I compensate for any gain change. This is so I can properly/fairly compare before/after when bypassing (so the level won’t jump), so I can removed any device and not affect my channel gain, and because the whole idea of using a peak reference level is to introduce all signals into the mixer at the same level. For very minor changes I may not bother compensating, depending on the circumstances - it’s not an absolute rule, I just find it to be helpful in most of the cases.
L(




ok, i noticed that you applied this peak level reference for channel bus too so i guess this is applying for parallel channel effect processing as well ?

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selig
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17 Jun 2018

Voyager wrote:
16 Jun 2018
selig wrote:
15 Jun 2018

You can certainly go back and adjust your starting levels if your mix is too hot. I would say it depends on whether you are mixing something that needs to be out the door, or whether you have time to stop mixing and explore a technique - your call.

Yes, pretty much when I add a new processor (not an “effect” like delay or reverb) I compensate for any gain change. This is so I can properly/fairly compare before/after when bypassing (so the level won’t jump), so I can removed any device and not affect my channel gain, and because the whole idea of using a peak reference level is to introduce all signals into the mixer at the same level. For very minor changes I may not bother compensating, depending on the circumstances - it’s not an absolute rule, I just find it to be helpful in most of the cases.
L(




ok, i noticed that you applied this peak level reference for channel bus too so i guess this is applying for parallel channel effect processing as well ?
I didn't apply the ref level to the bus - see the video and previous replies for more info.

But basically I allow the bus levels to go above the ref level, since they are a sum of many inputs already at the ref level.

Parallel channels are different. When you first create a parallel channel, you immediately increase the gain of that signal by 6dB (doubling it). Sometimes I wonder if the current craze for parallel processing is that everything gets louder when you add parallel channels, and of course "louder is better"!

Ideally one would lower both the original and the parallel channel by 6dB to compensate (or bus them to a new bus channel and lower the level there), either with the Input Gain or the fader. Hey, there's a use for the input gain knob! ;)

But I would guess most folks do NOT compensate for the added gain, and in at least some cases are likely "fooling themselves" into thinking it sounds better when it MAY be simply louder. OR, it may sound better AND be louder, which is going to affect your mix balances if you add the parallel channel late in the process. In any case, IMO one should be aware of this gain increase and make their own decision about how to deal with it.
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