Too much master buss saturation

[Marco Raaphorst]

I love this album:

But soundwise there's a little too much saturation, it's subtle, but it's on the whole mix. Mixed to tape? Just a hinge too much saturation on the whole mix?

Anyone?

[jimmyklane]

First 10 seconds and I had to turn it off. That's doesn't sound like tape at all to me...it sounds like somebody got happy with the brickwall limiter!

[Marco Raaphorst]

First 10 seconds and I had to turn it off. That's doesn't sound like tape at all to me...it sounds like somebody got happy with the brickwall limiter!

Might be right. Vocals are distorting as well.

Who the fuck is still using brickwall limiters these days? Everything is auto gained, so there's no need to get it louder.

[jimmyklane]

Who the fuck is still using brickwall limiters these days? Everything is auto gained, so there's no need to get it louder.

Pretty much every mastering engineer that touches a pop, rap, or dance record. While everything on iTunes does indeed have it's volume matched at least by average or RMS levels, there are still commercial releases....CD's etc.

Check out the waveforms of most of the stuff on bandcamp or similar. They are still sausages.....and they sound flat and samey.

[normen]

Yep, brickwall. Terrible. Probably the mastering guy's decision and the musicians (who were probably in charge of the final decision) were just blown away by "louder is better" when they were asked if the master is good. You really gotta choose your mastering engineer wisely because many will just go for that effect as the paying customer usually has no real idea of good sound.

Edit: And yeah, it's not about the brickwall itself, they can sound totally fine even when reducing 3dB, it's about the HOW.

Edit2: This is a good reminder to always remember to check back your mix at a low volume, makes depth staging (i.e. reverb) and distortion issues MUCH MUCH more apparent.

[wendylou]

Holy schmoly, the Big Balloon track excerpt clips big time. It's distortion you're hearing.

Screen Shot 2018-06-05 at 4.49.58 PM.png (42.64 KiB) Viewed 2700 times

Dutch.png (32.66 KiB) Viewed 2700 times

And just for fun, it has a dynamic range of 5. This wins the loudness war!

Screen Shot 2018-06-05 at 4.56.03 PM.png (110.17 KiB) Viewed 2695 times

[jimmyklane]

Holy schmoly, this track clips big time. It's distortion you're hearing.


Screen Shot 2018-06-05 at 4.49.58 PM.png

Dutch.png


And just for fun, it has a dynamic range of 5. This wins the loudness war!


Screen Shot 2018-06-05 at 4.56.03 PM.png

If I had to guess the actual master is smashed at -0.1dB and the encoder clipped. This is a real danger and the “mastered for iTunes” moniker usually has this issue sorted fairly well.

[selig]

Yep, brickwall. Terrible. Probably the mastering guy's decision and the musicians (who were probably in charge of the final decision) were just blown away by "louder is better" when they were asked if the master is good. You really gotta choose your mastering engineer wisely because many will just go for that effect as the paying customer usually has no real idea of good sound.

Edit: And yeah, it's not about the brickwall itself, they can sound totally fine even when reducing 3dB, it's about the HOW.

Edit2: This is a good reminder to always remember to check back your mix at a low volume, makes depth staging (i.e. reverb) and distortion issues MUCH MUCH more apparent.

Totally agree with everything above.
I use brick wall on everything though sometimes it only hits 1 dB gain reduction on a few key spots. I'm also seeing clipping (and experiencing fatigue).

Another tip: Listen loud too - stuff like this sounds terrible loud because it's only using the top 6 dB of the range and pummeling you start to finish. The more dynamic stuff always sounds great loud to me, because of the dynamics (and yet it sometimes doesn't translate as well to lower listening levels for the same reason).

That's not to say great music can't transcend even the crappiest mastering jobs, but I'm not sure this music qualifies for my tastes.

@Marco - you're usually more into the dynamic stuff, and I usually love the examples you post - what am I missing with this project that would be a reason for me to give it a second chance?

[selig]

Holy schmoly, the Big Balloon track excerpt clips big time. It's distortion you're hearing.


Screen Shot 2018-06-05 at 4.49.58 PM.png

Dutch.png


And just for fun, it has a dynamic range of 5. This wins the loudness war!


Screen Shot 2018-06-05 at 4.56.03 PM.png

wow...

[normen]

If I had to guess the actual master is smashed at -0.1dB and the encoder clipped. This is a real danger and the “mastered for iTunes” moniker usually has this issue sorted fairly well.

You can't really "clip" Apples encoder like that. It actually sounds better than a L2 with default settings when it "clips" But the decoder can easily clip when the input is that hot already. So it depends on how you read those clip values if you want to find the culprit @wendylou

Another tip: Listen loud too - stuff like this sounds terrible loud because it's only using the top 6 dB of the range and pummeling you start to finish.

Yep, totally this as well. You can feel a dynamic track hit your stomach, an over-compressed one doesn't do that anymore. Thats especially apparent at high volumes on large systems (i.e. far field or PA). So listen at ALL the volumes \o/

[jimmyklane]

If I had to guess the actual master is smashed at -0.1dB and the encoder clipped. This is a real danger and the “mastered for iTunes” moniker usually has this issue sorted fairly well.

You can't really "clip" Apples encoder like that. It actually sounds better than a L2 with default settings when it "clips" But the decoder can easily clip when the input is that hot already. So it depends on how you read those clip values if you want to find the culprit @wendylou

I may have mixed my messages there. When I said “mastered for iTunes” I meant that you don’t hear this on songs encoded by/for Apple. What I DO mean is that (as you know) when you change ANY data on a track that is constantly locked to -0.1dB, you are very likely to cause clipping. Perceptual encode/decode is most certainly changing the data! I’ll bow to your experience if you’re stating it occurs on the decide side.....I’m a recording and mixing engineer and will not profess to be any sort of expert on mastering.

[jimmyklane]

...sounds better than a L2 with default settings when it "clips"....

I bought the hardware L2 once upon a time, hated that just as much as the software. Returned it to Sweetwater after trying to like it for two weeks. There were decent converters on it however. I use a PL-2 for peak limiting now, like the sound of that much more.

[normen]

I may have mixed my messages there. When I said “mastered for iTunes” I meant that you don’t hear this on songs encoded by/for Apple. What I DO mean is that (as you know) when you change ANY data on a track that is constantly locked to -0.1dB, you are very likely to cause clipping. Perceptual encode/decode is most certainly changing the data! I’ll bow to your experience if you’re stating it occurs on the decide side.....I’m a recording and mixing engineer and will not profess to be any sort of expert on mastering.

Yeah but thats what I mean, even though the content is changed at that point there is no clipping artifacts in that data. It's the decoder that creates those artifacts (or not). Most encoders can easily capture all inter sample peaks and even regular above-zero peaks if they support an input format that can store them (e.g. 32bit WAV).

And what I said about Apples encoder implies that (as far as I can see or rather hear) it includes a pretty decent sounding brickwall with inter sample peak detection in the input stage. I only really heard that for the first time when I went on a quest to find out what the HECK happened to the 1995 masters from Iron Maiden when they were transferred to iTunes (They sounded just like this here) I don't know if it was me writing to everyone I could think of but now they have properly re-mastered versions of all their Albums on the digital channels, including all the nice headroom and super big and real 80s bass drums

At any instance, only really adding info, not trying to invalidate any. Really it's a technicality what clips here, I think we're all in agreement the master wasn't proper to begin with

[Marco Raaphorst]

My first experience with clipped peaks was with Scritti Politti in 2000. I noticed clips on every bass drum hit. I thought it was the cd player in my hotel room...

Must say I don’t strive for perfection. Not able to do this, and not interested in that. My love for Steely Dan has made me aware... anyways this was so obviously bad sounding. And on streaming the badly compressed stuff sounds even worse.

I guess many people won’t notice it though. The band has excepted this and they are sounding superb live.

[Loque]

Sounds like pap, so it sounds like most actual pop.

[Marco Raaphorst]

I still find it interesting that this kind of stuff is really not important, except for the 1% maybe?

[Loque]

I still find it interesting that this kind of stuff is really not important, except for the 1% maybe?

Exactly. And most ppls hi-fi device is a mobile phone which plays high compressed audio files.

[Marco Raaphorst]

Sounds like pap, so it sounds like most actual pop.

I have created a playlists for reference tracks but maybe I should also create one for the non-reference stuff.

[Marco Raaphorst]

The bummer though: if you use a limiter this way the music transfers great to mobile phones, to shitty speakers. Same for spoken word /radio/podcasts.

It only sounds shitty when:
1. you have good ears
2. you have great listening devices

The public doens't have great ears and listens on their iphone or laptop speakers. MacBook Pro have the most shitty speakers of the last decate. They distort like crazy. Not able to playback piano music without serious distortion.

[djadalaide]

I think to be fair, they were probably going for the Tame Impala-type sound.

[Marco Raaphorst]

I think to be fair, they were probably going for the Tame Impala-type sound.

Tame Impala is using tape saturation via cassettedecks.

Tape is odd harmonics, clipped bits are odds as well. In a way it's like tape with more upper harmonics.

[Djstarski]

I believe if you purchase the album the quality will be better . Try looking for the same tracks on youtube or somewhere else and compare the quality . but i do agree that it can sound better to the ears if treated right .

[djadalaide]

I think to be fair, they were probably going for the Tame Impala-type sound.

Tame Impala is using tape saturation via cassettedecks.

Tape is odd harmonics, clipped bits are odds as well. In a way it's like tape with more upper harmonics.

They failed anyway, far too loud! Its distorted like "Tame Impala - Elephant" but twice the volume

[Marco Raaphorst]

I believe if you purchase the album the quality will be better . Try looking for the same tracks on youtube or somewhere else and compare the quality . but i do agree that it can sound better to the ears if treated right .

YouTube is louder but I am hearing the same saturation as on Spotify. Imo Spotify is superb (Ogg Vorbis 320 kpbs!!)

Also hearing a high end sizzle which is irritating. Compensation for a hearing damage?

[Marco Raaphorst]

Tame Impala is using tape saturation via cassettedecks.

Tape is odd harmonics, clipped bits are odds as well. In a way it's like tape with more upper harmonics.

They failed anyway, far too loud! Its distorted like "Tame Impala - Elephant" but twice the volume

Just to make clear: it is not too loud (Spotify auto levels everything) it is too much compressed/brickwall limiting.