Sound design versus using sounds, ... just me?

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avasopht
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31 May 2018

Rewritten

I was recently browsing some new drum sounds I purchased and noticed that whenever I found processed sounds I liked all that was going through my mind was not what I am going to make with it, but how I could sculpt this type of sound from the drum shots I already have.

Thinking back I've always been as interested in sculpting drum sounds and instrument loops from scratch (well, sort-of) as I am in making music. I do happily use them, as I am pragmatic, but I seem to have a bit of a preference to sculpting.

Is there any specific instrument you find it's important to inject your own style into the sound?

RobC
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02 Jun 2018

Too much OCD going on, so I always had to make everything from scratch. It's very beneficial, though!

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normen
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02 Jun 2018

I always found it distracting when making music, especially being an audio engineer. I was most productive in Garage Band :) Three presets, two dials - deal with it and make music ^^

Everything else - if the knob to change it is there I will use it - if I use the knob I will want to get it even better and start twiddling more knobs - I stop making music and twiddle knobs instead...

Edit: That said, obviously sound design is a whole world for itself - I did a lot of that FOR musicians creating music. But even for dance pieces where the intention was to "play with audio" I set up the "playing" bit before (i.e. the routing etc.) and made it accessible through a few MIDI knobs. Like a mic going through parsec and stuff like that.

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Ahornberg
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02 Jun 2018

Today, most sounds are just there. So I grab them and feel fine. Sometimes I tweak sounds while playing/recording. This is fun to.

jimmyklane
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02 Jun 2018

I actually spend hours on sound design for every song of my own that I make. Much of that can be laid at the feet of my process using hardware for most parts....it usually takes longer to work in synths that aren’t knob per function than it does in software. With a knobby synth, results can be faster than software (since I’ve only got one synth that acts as a really nice controller) using the mouse.

For me, the sound design is critical now. I used to simply write songs in Cubase sent out to my Virus, with default or simple patches and then handle sound design afterwards, but nowadays I make both the song and the patches at the same time and think my music has changed because of it.
DAW: Reason 12

SAMPLERS: Akai MPC 2000, E-mu SP1200, E-Mu e5000Ultra, Ensoniq EPS 16+, Akai S950, Maschine

SYNTHS: Mostly classic Polysynths and more modern Monosynths. All are mostly food for my samplers!

www.soundcloud.com/jimmyklane

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selig
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02 Jun 2018

jimmyklane wrote:I actually spend hours on sound design for every song of my own that I make. Much of that can be laid at the feet of my process using hardware for most parts....it usually takes longer to work in synths that aren’t knob per function than it does in software. With a knobby synth, results can be faster than software (since I’ve only got one synth that acts as a really nice controller) using the mouse.

For me, the sound design is critical now. I used to simply write songs in Cubase sent out to my Virus, with default or simple patches and then handle sound design afterwards, but nowadays I make both the song and the patches at the same time and think my music has changed because of it.
I’m sure you can relate to this: much of my writing over the years spawned from sound design. I’d start working on a patch, need to play some chords or melody to test the patch, find I really liked what I was playing, and before I knew it I had a song AND a patch!

Though sometimes I preset patch can also spawn a song, I now spend as much time “composing” the music sans patch (using piano) as much for the fact it leads me in different directions as for the fact sometimes I’m composing by request (creating a requested “cue” for submission to a library for example).

But sounds definitely inspire songs, whether designed by me or by someone else. :)


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eusti
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02 Jun 2018

For me it sometimes is like Selig mentioned, designing a sound and testing it out can lead to a song or at least a song fragment... Most times though for me programming sounds is a different mindset, another form of creativity, that is distinctly different than creating melodies, etc... As mainly a hobbyist I can allow myself to just follow what is happening as there aren't any deadlines making me focus on finishing a song that urgently... (But then again: I don't get that much stuff finished... ;))

D.

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Marco Raaphorst
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02 Jun 2018

You can totally sound like yourself even without you trying hard to create this.

It doesn't matter what you use. It's more about your choices. People always think they need to change something to make it their own. That's not true. You simply need to create something you like instead of pleasing others.

jimmyklane
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02 Jun 2018

selig wrote:
02 Jun 2018
jimmyklane wrote:I actually spend hours on sound design for every song of my own that I make. Much of that can be laid at the feet of my process using hardware for most parts....it usually takes longer to work in synths that aren’t knob per function than it does in software. With a knobby synth, results can be faster than software (since I’ve only got one synth that acts as a really nice controller) using the mouse.

For me, the sound design is critical now. I used to simply write songs in Cubase sent out to my Virus, with default or simple patches and then handle sound design afterwards, but nowadays I make both the song and the patches at the same time and think my music has changed because of it.
I’m sure you can relate to this: much of my writing over the years spawned from sound design. I’d start working on a patch, need to play some chords or melody to test the patch, find I really liked what I was playing, and before I knew it I had a song AND a patch!

Though sometimes I preset patch can also spawn a song, I now spend as much time “composing” the music sans patch (using piano) as much for the fact it leads me in different directions as for the fact sometimes I’m composing by request (creating a requested “cue” for submission to a library for example).

But sounds definitely inspire songs, whether designed by me or by someone else. :)


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Absolutely true. Some of the new patches in the R10 factory library are actually really good...but I still have the piano I learned upon starting 32 years ago in my living room....that is where I tend to write my transitions, from A—>B or Verse to Chorus, etc, because you can really hear when things do or do not work on a line piano.

The way I tend to work is a little weird because of how I design and compose at the same time....I’ll write an intro however many bars, as a completed work. I’ll come back the next day (and however many days it takes) and write a connecting section that stands on its own, and so on until I have a song I’m happy with. I also tend to mix as I go, as I think of the mix as just another form of sound design inasmuch as I’m adding effects and processing sounds, etc, which further inform the process of song writing.
DAW: Reason 12

SAMPLERS: Akai MPC 2000, E-mu SP1200, E-Mu e5000Ultra, Ensoniq EPS 16+, Akai S950, Maschine

SYNTHS: Mostly classic Polysynths and more modern Monosynths. All are mostly food for my samplers!

www.soundcloud.com/jimmyklane

jimmyklane
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02 Jun 2018

Marco Raaphorst wrote:
02 Jun 2018
You simply need to create something you like instead of pleasing others.
Unless of course I’m doing client work or composing to locked picture for a film.....in that case it has literally nothing to do with me and the process informs the end-result!

I’m not sure if you’re a hobbyist or a professional, semi-pro or full-time. However, if you have clients, you pretty much BETTER please them in order to keep them. If you write cues to a film that don’t fit the the directors vision you may soon find yourself replaced.
DAW: Reason 12

SAMPLERS: Akai MPC 2000, E-mu SP1200, E-Mu e5000Ultra, Ensoniq EPS 16+, Akai S950, Maschine

SYNTHS: Mostly classic Polysynths and more modern Monosynths. All are mostly food for my samplers!

www.soundcloud.com/jimmyklane

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QVprod
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02 Jun 2018

Response to this is probably genre based. I think for the more electronic type music sound design has a heavier impact on creativity. For me, I only tap into my meager synthesis knowledge when I want a quick sound that I can make faster than I can search for. Generally a simple bass or supersaw type thing.Otherwise I rely on presets. I can work faster that way and my 'sound' is more about my style of composing/arranging than the sounds I use. As far as drums, I'm always layering kicks and snares. I rarely ever use one same as is. Nonetheless despite how easy that is to do, buying drumkits and packs is a common practice. I suppose it's a time saver too.

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Marco Raaphorst
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02 Jun 2018

jimmyklane wrote:
02 Jun 2018
Marco Raaphorst wrote:
02 Jun 2018
You simply need to create something you like instead of pleasing others.
Unless of course I’m doing client work or composing to locked picture for a film.....in that case it has literally nothing to do with me and the process informs the end-result!

I’m not sure if you’re a hobbyist or a professional, semi-pro or full-time. However, if you have clients, you pretty much BETTER please them in order to keep them. If you write cues to a film that don’t fit the the directors vision you may soon find yourself replaced.
but it wasn't about clients it was about "your own style"

jimmyklane
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02 Jun 2018

OP, I’m a drummer and a pianist, so I’d say that not only the drum SOUNDS, but the parts, programming, and mix are super important to me, even if they’re really simple parts. As for keyboard instruments, I’d say that since I’m really deep into sampling, I like to get the sound of the instrument I want (EP, lead, bass, pad, etc) and then sample it into whichever of my samplers is going to give me the character and sound I’m after. It’s actually pretty rare that I play a polysynth on its own without a couple rounds of sampling back and forth to “make it mine”...

The music I’m currently making tends to revolve around the drums, specifically snares and toms, and fairly deep chords (lots of 9ths and 11ths, sus2/4, and the like) to convey a little tension in what are truly really simple patterns.

And I’m with you 100%, it can be really challenging to stay hooked into the song instead of noodling off into a land of playing with sound!
DAW: Reason 12

SAMPLERS: Akai MPC 2000, E-mu SP1200, E-Mu e5000Ultra, Ensoniq EPS 16+, Akai S950, Maschine

SYNTHS: Mostly classic Polysynths and more modern Monosynths. All are mostly food for my samplers!

www.soundcloud.com/jimmyklane

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TritoneAddiction
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02 Jun 2018

Sometimes I make my own synth patches, but most of the time I'm using existing patches and tweak them a little to my own taste. You often don't have to do much to make a big difference.
It's also not unusual that I take a preset and process it through a bunch of effects (Disperser, compressors, Audiomatic, distortions, EQ, filters, delays, reverbs) so what comes out sounds nothing like the initial preset. I guess that's a way of working with sound design too.

I would say most of my tracks are 50% focused on sound design/sound selection/production and 50% is about the song writing/note choices/arrangement. They are equally important.

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Oquasec
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02 Jun 2018

Depends on if I'm making a track or not.
If not I'll prolly spend a few days making synths patches and eventual refills, then decide one day to finish later.
Producer/Programmer.
Reason, FLS and Cubase NFR user.

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QVprod
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02 Jun 2018

Marco Raaphorst wrote:
02 Jun 2018

but it wasn't about clients it was about "your own style"
Even when it's client work, it's still your own style. That's the reason the client hires you.

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Marco Raaphorst
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03 Jun 2018

QVprod wrote:
02 Jun 2018
Marco Raaphorst wrote:
02 Jun 2018

but it wasn't about clients it was about "your own style"
Even when it's client work, it's still your own style. That's the reason the client hires you.
Depends on the client. Most simply want common stuff. Preset and stock sound everybody uses.

Experimental stuff I personally love is often not considered as good for clients.

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jappe
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03 Jun 2018

normen wrote:
02 Jun 2018
I always found it distracting when making music, especially being an audio engineer. I was most productive in Garage Band :) Three presets, two dials - deal with it and make music ^^

Everything else - if the knob to change it is there I will use it - if I use the knob I will want to get it even better and start twiddling more knobs - I stop making music and twiddle knobs instead...
+1 on this.

I find making sounds more an analytical process than a creative, and that's probably why I find it slightly incompatible with making music.

Ideally, I'd like to have a non-realtime Reason Rack App where I can make sounds&build a rack on the bus to work (I have 6 hours commuting time :puf_bigsmile: ) ) to make use of idle time and not cannibalizing on music making time.


Regarding instrument for personal touch, that would be my voice, for better or worse.

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Marco Raaphorst
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03 Jun 2018

sometimes used ID8 because of this. just create arrangements and don't bother the sound. lo-fi approaches are nice to. to make yourself not perfect things but just try to be original. when you are original, striving for perfection is not important.

must say I am much of a perfectionist who is always trying to kill that attitude. in a way I hate perfectionism.

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demt
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03 Jun 2018

used to twiddle the software synths,seems ive swamped myself with choice and lost direction,and am know rekindling that spirit with hardware synths ,The advantage is spending a lot more time on the song hence more options covered for that particular sound, the limitation of choice inherit with hardware synths means i tend to stick to the original song/sound So far that satisfies my creative outlet
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jimmyklane
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03 Jun 2018

I use the presets in synths I don’t understand. A good example in Reason is Malstrom. I’ve read the manual, I see the signal flow, but somehow I never get what I want out of it. I literally always make my own sounds, even if they are sounds from a simple analog synth that people have heard before I won’t use a preset.

What I DO do a lot of is sampling....but not from records, instead I use my synths....and in those cases sometimes I’ll use a preset from a software synth if I really think I can work with it in the sampler (my process is to shuffle sounds in analog between samplers while using various processors and effects in between)....otherwise it is always my creations that are heard in my music.
DAW: Reason 12

SAMPLERS: Akai MPC 2000, E-mu SP1200, E-Mu e5000Ultra, Ensoniq EPS 16+, Akai S950, Maschine

SYNTHS: Mostly classic Polysynths and more modern Monosynths. All are mostly food for my samplers!

www.soundcloud.com/jimmyklane

jimmyklane
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03 Jun 2018

Marco Raaphorst wrote:
03 Jun 2018
QVprod wrote:
02 Jun 2018


Even when it's client work, it's still your own style. That's the reason the client hires you.
Depends on the client. Most simply want common stuff. Preset and stock sound everybody uses.

Experimental stuff I personally love is often not considered as good for clients.
You were right to say that clients come to me for my sound....however, that is mostly mixing and mastering that I’m known for. I’ve got a really aggressive and upfront sound to everything I mix and find it hard to dial that back for ballads and more laid-back genres.

When I do the most sound design is when creating new sounds for a film. Special effects (like using a slinky as a giant spring reverb and pitching it way down in the sampler!) are great fun....and in the scoring work I do I work in an electronic style with only occasional and appropriate orchestral sections. I’m a big fan of JunkieXL in this regard, and often use his work as a reference point....especially when writing for strings and brass. There is no using a preset when creating original music for film, not for me. I’ve recognized Reason loops in TV shows and commercials and been instantly contemptuous of whomever scored for it. To slap a stock loop onto something seems like weak sauce to me.
DAW: Reason 12

SAMPLERS: Akai MPC 2000, E-mu SP1200, E-Mu e5000Ultra, Ensoniq EPS 16+, Akai S950, Maschine

SYNTHS: Mostly classic Polysynths and more modern Monosynths. All are mostly food for my samplers!

www.soundcloud.com/jimmyklane

Jmax
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03 Jun 2018

I've always found myself pretty terrible at sound design. When you see a device that has over 100 knobs and modulation options it can be pretty confusing. I didn't even understand how EQ and Compressors worked until last year. I literally spent a year watching videos and reading up, trying things. I still find a lot of sound design very confusing. How modulations work, no idea there. The whole CV thing. I've tried small things, but unless you really understand how things work it's very easy to get lost and come up with nothing and waste A LOT of time. Would almost help to have a teacher, besides YouTube.

All that aside, presets are awesome and help a lot. I usually find one I like and a couple knobs I can adjust for automation. Don't need more then that. I find the more I try to over complicate things, the more I'm no longer creating music. It's easy just to create wacky sounds to no avail.

I do wish I understood sound design like a lot of the people on this board, most of the time I have no clue what they're talking about. It's not totally natural for me. Yet I'm highly musical.

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selig
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03 Jun 2018

What I love in reading all these different approaches is that there ARE so many different approaches - and they all produce music in the end, from those that stick to one way of doing things to those who always try new ways. :)


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jimmyklane
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03 Jun 2018

Jmax wrote:
03 Jun 2018

I still find a lot of sound design very confusing. How modulations work, no idea there. The whole CV thing. I've tried small things, but unless you really understand how things work it's very easy to get lost and come up with nothing and waste A LOT of time.

I can help you here with some dedicated and very clear resources on the web. In a (non FM) synth....working within the subtractive synthesis model we have the following (for non-modular fixed architecture synths)


AUDIO PATH:
Sound source(s) OSCILLATOR(S). These give waveforms rich in harmonic content designed to flow into the
FILTER(S): these are designed to “cut away” parts of the harmonic-rich waveforms generated by the oscillators.
AMPLIFIERS: This is the final output and last stage of the audio path

Now, everything else is a sound modification tool, or modulator. You have:

ENVELOPE(S): These are your ADSR controls for (usually) filter and amp. The filter will often have an “amount” setting that allows you to open and close the filter over time to a greater or lesser degree depending upon the amount setting

LFO(S): cyclic waveforms that are exactly the same as the oscillators, just much much slower. These can be directed to modulate various parameters over time, for example, adding vibrato, tremolo, panning modulation, or filter modulation

There are synths with more advanced settings, using Velocity, Ramp generators, Keyboard tracking, aftertouch, and many more....but they only act UPON the sound, they are not part of the audio path.



Would almost help to have a teacher, besides YouTube.

I’d be happy to help teach you what I know. I can work with you over email (or phone if you’re in the US) as well as sharing patches with you.


I do wish I understood sound design like a lot of the people on this board, most of the time I have no clue what they're talking about. It's not totally natural for me. Yet I'm highly musical.
I can show you the basics of the CV system. In short, CV is nothing more or less than the modifiers I laid out above....CV works upon the sound that is generated in the audio path. For example, you can add LFOs that the synth doesn’t have, or use envelopes to shape something the synth doesn’t have a preset routing for. It simply expands upon the capabilities of the synthesizer that you’re using.

Write back of PM if you’d like my help, I’m always willing to share my knowledge.
DAW: Reason 12

SAMPLERS: Akai MPC 2000, E-mu SP1200, E-Mu e5000Ultra, Ensoniq EPS 16+, Akai S950, Maschine

SYNTHS: Mostly classic Polysynths and more modern Monosynths. All are mostly food for my samplers!

www.soundcloud.com/jimmyklane

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