How do you even begin to think about synthesizing such a sound?

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ravisoni
Posts: 419
Joined: 09 Feb 2015
Location: Las Vegas

25 May 2018

I would thoroughly appreciate if someone could point me in the right direction to learning sound synthesis. Yes, we got lots of fantastic tutorials on youtube, but my biggest problem (9 years later, and still the biggest problem) is visualizing waveforms/grains/snippets and the transformations that happen to them as we twiddle the knobs in the various synths. I've tried utilizing skope and other tools for visual purposes, but then I think I also lack sorely in fundamentals. Any direction on where to find tutorials that sequentially explain oscillators, modifiers, envelopes etc? I really want to get better at sound design. I'm a patch browser, but man, sometimes you just WANT to know how the heck someone created a sound such as this (0:33):


@ 0:33, That smooth buttery melting bass... what in the world is going on with it?

My thought process in figuring it out was this: It's a sustained bass/drone sound with sidechaining happening to it while another punchy bass played on 3, 7, 11, 15.
The punchy bass gave it some oomph, and the silky bass offered that melting feeling. Next, I tried to look for patches in existing synths to at least get some background, and the closest I got to was Slow Mellow EX in antidote. Looking at that patch, I understand it's mostly a triangle wave with some filter working, but how do you take it from there to match more closely with the one in the song? And that's where I'm stuck. How do I even know what to think of to get it close to the song? If you're a sound designer, what's the next thing you ask or tell yourself at that point?

Any guidance on proper, sequential tutorials (that you know are quite informative) would help, and be much appreciated!

Thanks!
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Loque
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25 May 2018

I am still struggling to get the sound i have in my head out of a synth even after years. Some basic sounds are no problem, replicate a sound works breeze for stager sounds. The more unusual the sound the longer I need to replicate or even fail to replicate it.

What i learned is, that seeing a waveform does not help much. Looking at a waveform can create an impression how it may sound, but the final sound is not bad only on that. The main important part is the attack time, which let us identify the sound. The final sound is build up also by modulations through the attack time and the sustain. Different synthesis techniques also produce different sounds.

As a simple example take a kick drum. The basic is done by sine wave,which sounds pretty boring as simple wave. The identification as a kick now comes from the attack time, which will be a short pitch down from the sine wave. With just this simple setup you can create tons of different kick sounds by changing pitch amount and time. Now involve different waves, filters and modulators, and you the possibilities are endless. Now add fx like Saison, amps, Story, chorus... And the sound changes drastically. And i still talk only about a kick drum...

So how did i learned some basics? Yes, I learned some basics. Load up a standard sound in a synth, now open the same or a different synth, and recreate exactly that sound step by step. Learn, what "makes" this sound. Start with a kick drum, than bass sounds, piano, guitar, winds... Yes, this takes time... As learning everything else... And don't forget, it also should be experimenting, accidents and fun!

Why did I do that? I found myself browsing more after sounds than making music and if i had found something I always thought, that it was not my sound. Now, the more i get used to create sounds, i get it done quicker than browsing.
Reason12, Win10

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odarmonix
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26 May 2018

I'm not 100% sure how exactly that bass sound was made, but I could get pretty close by using two Thor instances that differ only by some filter and envelope settings. https://www.dropbox.com/s/o1xk67rbb1h9a ... eason?dl=0

Don't ask me how or why I came up with this solution however, I'm unable to explain what's going on in my f*cked-up brain! :lol:

jimmyklane
Posts: 740
Joined: 16 Apr 2018

26 May 2018

A: there are a bunch of effects on that bass. It's spread out in the stereo field, and there is a chorus or similar on it. However, as I listen on my monitors, it seems as if it's a single square wave oscillator created from a VA or analog synth. It sounds to me like a Moog oscillator.....but I could be wrong due to the large helping of effects on it!

So, try a square wave from something like The Legend....one single osc. Take the filter all the way down, no resonance. set the filter envelope to open the filter just enough to hear this "buttery" tone. It will sound very dry, so put a SLOW and deep chorus on it, see if that gets you closer.

Are you on 10? I can make you a patch that's pretty close in 10-15 minutes with Europa, I think. The unison feature at the oscillator level will help with the spread, and as long as it's kept to a low value should simply spread the patch and not swamp it.

The other option would be for me to make you a sample with a real Moog....but you'll run into the limitations of sampling, namely that the attack will get slower as you go lower and the decay will get faster as you go higher....unless I sample every 3rd key or so for NN-XT.

Let me know if you'd like me to try and recreate the patch for you?
-Jim
DAW: Reason 12

SAMPLERS: Akai MPC 2000, E-mu SP1200, E-Mu e5000Ultra, Ensoniq EPS 16+, Akai S950, Maschine

SYNTHS: Mostly classic Polysynths and more modern Monosynths. All are mostly food for my samplers!

www.soundcloud.com/jimmyklane

jimmyklane
Posts: 740
Joined: 16 Apr 2018

26 May 2018

ravisoni wrote:
25 May 2018
I would thoroughly appreciate if someone could point me in the right direction to learning sound synthesis. Yes, we got lots of fantastic tutorials on youtube, but my biggest problem (9 years later, and still the biggest problem) is visualizing waveforms/grains/snippets and the transformations that happen to them as we twiddle the knobs in the various synths. I've tried utilizing skope and other tools for visual purposes, but then I think I also lack sorely in fundamentals. Any direction on where to find tutorials that sequentially explain oscillators, modifiers, envelopes etc? I really want to get better at sound design. I'm a patch browser, but man, sometimes you just WANT to know how the heck someone created a sound such as this (0:33):


@ 0:33, That smooth buttery melting bass... what in the world is going on with it?

My thought process in figuring it out was this: It's a sustained bass/drone sound with sidechaining happening to it while another punchy bass played on 3, 7, 11, 15.
The punchy bass gave it some oomph, and the silky bass offered that melting feeling. Next, I tried to look for patches in existing synths to at least get some background, and the closest I got to was Slow Mellow EX in antidote. Looking at that patch, I understand it's mostly a triangle wave with some filter working, but how do you take it from there to match more closely with the one in the song? And that's where I'm stuck. How do I even know what to think of to get it close to the song? If you're a sound designer, what's the next thing you ask or tell yourself at that point?

Any guidance on proper, sequential tutorials (that you know are quite informative) would help, and be much appreciated!

Thanks!


Try this:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/5bda5g5lij20w ... patch?dl=0


It's not dead on, but it's 5 minutes of work for something that sounds pretty close when played against the song. It's made for Europa.


Here's a slightly edited one wrapped up in a combinator:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/t2z7yix2g7b3h ... h.cmb?dl=0


Like I said, they aren't dead on, but both of them will remind you strongly of the patch in the song. it's pretty simple in it's basic form, but nailing the effects is the challenge
DAW: Reason 12

SAMPLERS: Akai MPC 2000, E-mu SP1200, E-Mu e5000Ultra, Ensoniq EPS 16+, Akai S950, Maschine

SYNTHS: Mostly classic Polysynths and more modern Monosynths. All are mostly food for my samplers!

www.soundcloud.com/jimmyklane

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ravisoni
Posts: 419
Joined: 09 Feb 2015
Location: Las Vegas

26 May 2018

Hey, thanks everyone, for the replies!

Loque: You know what's crazy, I've actually been trying to recreate the same sounds across different synths! Thought I was the only one, but glad to know I'm on the right path. Thanks1

odar: Thanks, I'll check it out!

jimmy: Hey man, great tutorial on that subtractor, really liked the depths you reached in there. I'm on Reason 9 so won't be able to avail of your Europa patch, but will try the techniques you've mentioned. I do have eXpanse... if you could perhaps link a snapshot of the Europa, I could try to somewhat replicate the settings on eXpanse.

Again, thanks all!
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kuhliloach
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26 May 2018

No expert here but I'd suggest starting with the filter sections, or even dropping filter effects (high pass / low pass) onto your synths, while just listening. I feel lucky that the first knobs I had fun tweaking on synths were filters / cutoff knobs. I learned ADSR, LFO's, envelopes, and waveform shapes later always turning back to filter knobs as being the most important.

jimmyklane
Posts: 740
Joined: 16 Apr 2018

26 May 2018

ravisoni wrote:
26 May 2018
Hey, thanks everyone, for the replies!

Loque: You know what's crazy, I've actually been trying to recreate the same sounds across different synths! Thought I was the only one, but glad to know I'm on the right path. Thanks1

odar: Thanks, I'll check it out!

jimmy: Hey man, great tutorial on that subtractor, really liked the depths you reached in there. I'm on Reason 9 so won't be able to avail of your Europa patch, but will try the techniques you've mentioned. I do have eXpanse... if you could perhaps link a snapshot of the Europa, I could try to somewhat replicate the settings on eXpanse.

Again, thanks all!
Thanks! I’m happy someone liked the Subtractor vid! Working out a method for the NN-19 next. By the time I get to serious synthesis like Thor, Grain, and Europa it’s going to be multiple parts per synth!

As soon as I get home I’ll grab a screenshot for you. Both patches are DEAD simple. I’ve got a square wave, some subtle unison (2 additional voices blended lightly to give it the stereo width) with about 50% keytrack on a fully closed filter. Bring the envelope amount up until it sounds right. I’m using an *almost* exponential envelope, as is the song....linear envelopes won’t get the decay right. Simple A/D with decay time set to match the song. A light chorus would work as well, but you’ve got to be careful to keep the movement very light....the stereo aspect of the sound is pretty stable.
DAW: Reason 12

SAMPLERS: Akai MPC 2000, E-mu SP1200, E-Mu e5000Ultra, Ensoniq EPS 16+, Akai S950, Maschine

SYNTHS: Mostly classic Polysynths and more modern Monosynths. All are mostly food for my samplers!

www.soundcloud.com/jimmyklane

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Carly(Poohbear)
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28 May 2018

ravisoni wrote:
25 May 2018
Any direction on where to find tutorials that sequentially explain oscillators, modifiers, envelopes etc? I really want to get better at sound design.

Personally I found this to be one of the most useful tutorials\programs about learning synths.

https://www.syntorial.com/


PoohBear

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mcatalao
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29 May 2018

If you prefer reading (i find i remember more and learn better if i read than seeing web tutorials) sound on sound has a series on Synths that is my bible for a long time:

https://www.soundonsound.com/search/art ... ect%3A8106

There use to be a pdf version of this somewhere but i can't find it!

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mcatalao
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29 May 2018

Oh, just found the PDF version:

http://www.mediafire.com/file/7w2dcsqmk ... mplete.pdf

I assume as everything is available freely on their site, you don't void any copyright but use it at your own risk!

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selig
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29 May 2018

Besides the tutorials mentioned here, another thing you can do to gain knowledge about how to synthesize certain sounds takes time but is worth it IMO.

First, get your hands on as many different synths, even for a quick walk through, to learn which type of synth produce which type of sound. When you find a synth with more of the sounds you like and want to learn about, spend time looking at how those patches are created. Also, spend time just messing with the different modules: go through the oscillator options, the filter options, the modulation options etc.

Then you have a data bank of places to look/start when you hear a similar sound. As for the sound itself, break it down any way you can: what part of the audio spectrum does it occupy, what is its volume envelope, what other modulations can you hear (how does it change over time), etc.

Basically, one way to learn synthesis besides books/videos is hands on experience!


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raymondh
Posts: 1776
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29 May 2018

Trying to replicate your favourite tracks is a great way to learn synthesis skills. Amazing what you learn by intensive listening.
Put the original song in a Reason track, find a section featuring the synth you'd like to replicate, then listen to the same bar over and over, listening to how it sounds. Use headphones so your family/housemates don't kick you out :)

2nd the view that the waveform isn't all that helpful, because with many sounds, the uniqueness is from the modulation, and the wave changes over time. Also 2nd Selig's advice to try different synths and deconstruct patches. You should be able to tell straight away some commonly used techniques eg when sync has been used, ring modulation has been used, a fast pitch envelope has been used, when white noise is used to colour a sound etc. And also try to identify a synth's "signature sound". Vintage synths are especially easy to distinguish - eg Minimoog, Prophet 5, Jupiter 8, DX7. Complex modern softsynths are much harder to distinguish (to me anyway).

A couple of tips easily overlooked -
-- FX can be an impactful part of sound design, rather than just a mixing/ambience tool. Not just chorus, distortion etc but also delays and reverb.
-- Key voicings are also an impactful part of sound design. You may struggle to get those stabs to sound as grand as on your reference song, but while your single note sound thin, what happens if you also play a 5th above the root note, or an Octave below, or a triad?
-- Arrangement can impact sound design - eg rather than using a delay, how about playing the same note 1/16 after the original note, and then for the 2nd note, playing with lower velocity (and program velocity to impact filter cutoff). Techniques like that are often used too.

All this stuff can be overwhelming but just take one step at a time and realise that every one thing you learn, is one thing more you can use for your creative arsenal :)

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ravisoni
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30 May 2018

Damn, you guys have opened the pandora's box here for me. Thank you all for the advice. I'm going to take each of these seriously as it's my goal to master at least one synth by the next year and be able to quickly produce some of the common sounds.
Watched a video on envelopes and realized what kind of envelopes produce what type of sounds (pads vs plucks vs bells vs strings etc).
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ravisoni
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Location: Las Vegas

30 May 2018

jimmyklane wrote:
26 May 2018
So, try a square wave from something like The Legend....one single osc. Take the filter all the way down, no resonance. set the filter envelope to open the filter just enough to hear this "buttery" tone. It will sound very dry, so put a SLOW and deep chorus on it, see if that gets you closer.
-Jim
SPECTACULAR! Thanks Jimmy. I was able to get much closer than ever before. Tried what you said, added some resonance and in the mod matrix had the LFO act on the filter cutoff a bit. It gave the sound that "opening" feeling at the middle of the note. This is crazy, the sound feels "alive"! Now I understand filters and filter envelopes much, much better. On to the other advice in this thread!
antidote.JPG
antidote.JPG (102.19 KiB) Viewed 2684 times
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Loque
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30 May 2018

ravisoni wrote:
30 May 2018
jimmyklane wrote:
26 May 2018
So, try a square wave from something like The Legend....one single osc. Take the filter all the way down, no resonance. set the filter envelope to open the filter just enough to hear this "buttery" tone. It will sound very dry, so put a SLOW and deep chorus on it, see if that gets you closer.
-Jim
SPECTACULAR! Thanks Jimmy. I was able to get much closer than ever before. Tried what you said, added some resonance and in the mod matrix had the LFO act on the filter cutoff a bit. It gave the sound that "opening" feeling at the middle of the note. This is crazy, the sound feels "alive"! Now I understand filters and filter envelopes much, much better. On to the other advice in this thread!

antidote.JPG
Interesting you made this Antidote...The guitar-patch in Antidote opened my mind a lot how to build sounds...
Reason12, Win10

jimmyklane
Posts: 740
Joined: 16 Apr 2018

30 May 2018

ravisoni wrote:
30 May 2018
jimmyklane wrote:
26 May 2018
So, try a square wave from something like The Legend....one single osc. Take the filter all the way down, no resonance. set the filter envelope to open the filter just enough to hear this "buttery" tone. It will sound very dry, so put a SLOW and deep chorus on it, see if that gets you closer.
-Jim
SPECTACULAR! Thanks Jimmy. I was able to get much closer than ever before. Tried what you said, added some resonance and in the mod matrix had the LFO act on the filter cutoff a bit. It gave the sound that "opening" feeling at the middle of the note. This is crazy, the sound feels "alive"! Now I understand filters and filter envelopes much, much better. On to the other advice in this thread!

antidote.JPG
That’s what I like to hear! I could not be happier that you got close using my advice! I’d be happy to help with any other sounds you’re looking achieve as I’ve done a fair anount of professional sound design and tend to be pretty decent at picking out waveforms and harmonics in my head. The rest of that sound is now down to what type of LP filter you’re using and then how you’re getting the stereo width.
DAW: Reason 12

SAMPLERS: Akai MPC 2000, E-mu SP1200, E-Mu e5000Ultra, Ensoniq EPS 16+, Akai S950, Maschine

SYNTHS: Mostly classic Polysynths and more modern Monosynths. All are mostly food for my samplers!

www.soundcloud.com/jimmyklane

jimmyklane
Posts: 740
Joined: 16 Apr 2018

30 May 2018

ravisoni wrote:
25 May 2018
I would thoroughly appreciate if someone could point me in the right direction to learning sound synthesis. Yes, we got lots of fantastic tutorials on youtube, but my biggest problem (9 years later, and still the biggest problem) is visualizing waveforms/grains/snippets and the transformations that happen to them as we twiddle the knobs in the various synths. I've tried utilizing skope and other tools for visual purposes, but then I think I also lack sorely in fundamentals. Any direction on where to find tutorials that sequentially explain oscillators, modifiers, envelopes etc? I really want to get better at sound design....
Any guidance on proper, sequential tutorials (that you know are quite informative) would help, and be much appreciated!

I wonder if the thread I created:

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=7507080

Would be of any help. I’m only just now starting so the video is on the simplest of reason’s synths, the Subtractor, but I walk you through the osc, filters, envelopes, etc and have an oscilloscope and a spectrum analyzer up the whole time. I’d be happy to walk you through any questions it creates for you.

Thanks!
DAW: Reason 12

SAMPLERS: Akai MPC 2000, E-mu SP1200, E-Mu e5000Ultra, Ensoniq EPS 16+, Akai S950, Maschine

SYNTHS: Mostly classic Polysynths and more modern Monosynths. All are mostly food for my samplers!

www.soundcloud.com/jimmyklane

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brand
Posts: 131
Joined: 11 May 2017
Location: New Jersey, US

31 May 2018

Carly(Poohbear) wrote:
28 May 2018
Personally I found this to be one of the most useful tutorials\programs about learning synths.
https://www.syntorial.com/
PoohBear
+1 on this. I'm a novice in sound design, and I recently downloaded the trial of Syntorial. I have worked through the first few lessons and I find it to be very good. Simple at first, it gets harder as you go. It's basically a question of replicating a hidden patch after you get some teaching about a waveform, a control, or whatever. But as you go, it adds controls, etc. And Joe Hanley's narratives are very good. He's a good teacher. It's like a course, and personally, I like that. I figure I will buy it, but I will check the whole trial first, most likely. It's not like it's a really quick thing - I think it would take many hours over time to complete the entire course (for me anyhow... :)). Seems like a pretty good deal to me.

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jam-s
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Location: Aachen, Germany
Contact:

31 May 2018

Just in case you're wondering about the mixdown of this track: The stems can be found quite easily ;) (Not sure if pasting the link here would be OK, but you can easily find them with google.)

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miscend
Posts: 1955
Joined: 09 Feb 2015

31 May 2018

The Sound on Sound Synth Secrets series of articles are a must read for anyone with an interest in synth programming. They should all be on the website.

jimmyklane
Posts: 740
Joined: 16 Apr 2018

31 May 2018

Loque wrote:
25 May 2018
I am still struggling to get the sound i have in my head out of a synth even after years. Some basic sounds are no problem, replicate a sound works breeze for stager sounds. The more unusual the sound the longer I need to replicate or even fail to replicate it.

What i learned is, that seeing a waveform does not help much. Looking at a waveform can create an impression how it may sound, but the final sound is not bad only on that. The main important part is the attack time, which let us identify the sound. The final sound is build up also by modulations through the attack time and the sustain. Different synthesis techniques also produce different sounds.

As a simple example take a kick drum. The basic is done by sine wave,which sounds pretty boring as simple wave. The identification as a kick now comes from the attack time, which will be a short pitch down from the sine wave. With just this simple setup you can create tons of different kick sounds by changing pitch amount and time. Now involve different waves, filters and modulators, and you the possibilities are endless. Now add fx like Saison, amps, Story, chorus... And the sound changes drastically. And i still talk only about a kick drum...

So how did i learned some basics? Yes, I learned some basics. Load up a standard sound in a synth, now open the same or a different synth, and recreate exactly that sound step by step. Learn, what "makes" this sound. Start with a kick drum, than bass sounds, piano, guitar, winds... Yes, this takes time... As learning everything else... And don't forget, it also should be experimenting, accidents and fun!

Why did I do that? I found myself browsing more after sounds than making music and if i had found something I always thought, that it was not my sound. Now, the more i get used to create sounds, i get it done quicker than browsing.
Strongly recommend you check this out:

https://www.soundonsound.com/search/art ... ated%20asc

Synth Secrets by Gordon Reid will teach you many years worth of trial and error that you can apply to your own music in your own ways.
DAW: Reason 12

SAMPLERS: Akai MPC 2000, E-mu SP1200, E-Mu e5000Ultra, Ensoniq EPS 16+, Akai S950, Maschine

SYNTHS: Mostly classic Polysynths and more modern Monosynths. All are mostly food for my samplers!

www.soundcloud.com/jimmyklane

User avatar
Loque
Moderator
Posts: 11170
Joined: 28 Dec 2015

03 Jun 2018

jimmyklane wrote:
31 May 2018
Loque wrote:
25 May 2018
I am still struggling to get the sound i have in my head out of a synth even after years. Some basic sounds are no problem, replicate a sound works breeze for stager sounds. The more unusual the sound the longer I need to replicate or even fail to replicate it.

What i learned is, that seeing a waveform does not help much. Looking at a waveform can create an impression how it may sound, but the final sound is not bad only on that. The main important part is the attack time, which let us identify the sound. The final sound is build up also by modulations through the attack time and the sustain. Different synthesis techniques also produce different sounds.

As a simple example take a kick drum. The basic is done by sine wave,which sounds pretty boring as simple wave. The identification as a kick now comes from the attack time, which will be a short pitch down from the sine wave. With just this simple setup you can create tons of different kick sounds by changing pitch amount and time. Now involve different waves, filters and modulators, and you the possibilities are endless. Now add fx like Saison, amps, Story, chorus... And the sound changes drastically. And i still talk only about a kick drum...

So how did i learned some basics? Yes, I learned some basics. Load up a standard sound in a synth, now open the same or a different synth, and recreate exactly that sound step by step. Learn, what "makes" this sound. Start with a kick drum, than bass sounds, piano, guitar, winds... Yes, this takes time... As learning everything else... And don't forget, it also should be experimenting, accidents and fun!

Why did I do that? I found myself browsing more after sounds than making music and if i had found something I always thought, that it was not my sound. Now, the more i get used to create sounds, i get it done quicker than browsing.
Strongly recommend you check this out:

https://www.soundonsound.com/search/art ... ated%20asc

Synth Secrets by Gordon Reid will teach you many years worth of trial and error that you can apply to your own music in your own ways.
Excellent stuff. Thx for the hint. Actually experimenting with the brass articles: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=7507290
Reason12, Win10

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Boombastix
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08 Jun 2018

You do that in FM8 using one sub osc, one 5th, and one at a octave. Then feedback into the operators to create the initial knock. Turn down the filter for with envelope.
It's a very typical house bass programming.
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jimmyklane
Posts: 740
Joined: 16 Apr 2018

08 Jun 2018

Boombastix wrote:
08 Jun 2018
You do that in FM8 using one sub osc, one 5th, and one at a octave. Then feedback into the operators to create the initial knock. Turn down the filter for with envelope.
It's a very typical house bass programming.
Don’t take this the wrong way, but that sounds almost identical to filtering a square wave down to a triangle...
DAW: Reason 12

SAMPLERS: Akai MPC 2000, E-mu SP1200, E-Mu e5000Ultra, Ensoniq EPS 16+, Akai S950, Maschine

SYNTHS: Mostly classic Polysynths and more modern Monosynths. All are mostly food for my samplers!

www.soundcloud.com/jimmyklane

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