Modulation - Sum and Differences

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RobC
Posts: 1833
Joined: 10 Mar 2018

18 May 2018

For a long time, before looking into it deeply, I thought that the brief explanation Ring Modulation means that you take the sum of two signals, the differences of two signals, and then you modulate between the summed sound and the differences sound. I thought of that, because when you check a stereo sound, usually the mono is thick, the differences are thin sounding, and many times, the Ring Modulation had this rapid movement with thin sound dominance. But that just explains why I imagined it the way I did.

This retarded thinking of mine (I really wonder what kind of retardation I have, because I'm pretty sure there's something unusual, at least) - resulted in an idea, though. Maybe this already is some existing effect - if so, anyone know the definition?

So, again, you take two signals, create a sum, and difference out of them; and then you simply modulate between hearing one or the other (sort of crossfading - if you use a square modulator then you rapidly switch between hearing sum, then difference).
Don't expect drastic changes with very different sound sources ~ but it rather gets interesting, if you take 1 sound, make a duplicate, where you change - say, its pitch, and then take the two and start the above experiment.

Is this crazy, or stupid?

Fitting silliness:



(Sticks is crazy, Knuckles [red guy] is stupid.)
[Everyone should watch Sonic Boom!]

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Loque
Moderator
Posts: 11175
Joined: 28 Dec 2015

18 May 2018

Before i judge, i want to hear it. Take 2 signals, create a sum and a difference, modulate quickly between them... Could sound like the average, so could sound like a normal mix on a high modulation rate. On lower rate.... Dunno... How could a difference between 2 signals sound? Noise?

Should be easy with Thor. Sum two signals to one channel. The difference is just subtracted. Now scale each with an LFO, where each channel is inverted. Did i get it right?
Reason12, Win10

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Timmy Crowne
Competition Winner
Posts: 357
Joined: 06 Apr 2017
Location: California, United States

18 May 2018

Hey, your idea isn’t crazy or stupid. Are you thinking about ring modulation or phase modulation? The distinction is that ring modulation multiplies the amplitude of one signal by another, whereas it seems like your idea might be to combine signals of varying phase.

In that case, duplicated signals with identical phase would increase gain, and signals with inverted phase would sum to silence. Anything in between would produce comb filtering, which is basically a very short delay effect. You can try this by routing a signal into a Thor and passing it through the comb filter module. Routing an LFO to the filter frequency could produce the effect you’re after.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

jimmyklane
Posts: 740
Joined: 16 Apr 2018

18 May 2018

RobC wrote:
18 May 2018
For a long time, before looking into it deeply, I thought that the brief explanation Ring Modulation means that you take the sum of two signals, the differences of two signals, and then you modulate between the summed sound and the differences sound. I thought of that, because when you check a stereo sound, usually the mono is thick, the differences are thin sounding, and many times, the Ring Modulation had this rapid movement with thin sound dominance. But that just explains why I imagined it the way I did.

This retarded thinking of mine (I really wonder what kind of retardation I have, because I'm pretty sure there's something unusual, at least) - resulted in an idea, though. Maybe this already is some existing effect - if so, anyone know the definition?

So, again, you take two signals, create a sum, and difference out of them; and then you simply modulate between hearing one or the other (sort of crossfading - if you use a square modulator then you rapidly switch between hearing sum, then difference).
Don't expect drastic changes with very different sound sources ~ but it rather gets interesting, if you take 1 sound, make a duplicate, where you change - say, its pitch, and then take the two and start the above experiment.

Is this crazy, or stupid?

Fitting silliness:



(Sticks is crazy, Knuckles [red guy] is stupid.)
[Everyone should watch Sonic Boom!]
You could be talking about the phase multiplication of Subtractor. It will subtract or multiply a phase coherent copy of its own oscillator. Try looking at the waves on an oscilloscope and you’ll see what it does to the waveforms! In fact, I’m starting a video series that begins with Subtractor and I’m editing the video for it now, so you could wait for that to hit in a few days to see it all happen in convenient video format!
DAW: Reason 12

SAMPLERS: Akai MPC 2000, E-mu SP1200, E-Mu e5000Ultra, Ensoniq EPS 16+, Akai S950, Maschine

SYNTHS: Mostly classic Polysynths and more modern Monosynths. All are mostly food for my samplers!

www.soundcloud.com/jimmyklane

RobC
Posts: 1833
Joined: 10 Mar 2018

18 May 2018

Loque wrote:
18 May 2018
Before i judge, i want to hear it. Take 2 signals, create a sum and a difference, modulate quickly between them... Could sound like the average, so could sound like a normal mix on a high modulation rate. On lower rate.... Dunno... How could a difference between 2 signals sound? Noise?

Should be easy with Thor. Sum two signals to one channel. The difference is just subtracted. Now scale each with an LFO, where each channel is inverted. Did i get it right?
Here, I used subtractors in a combinator with 2 free rack extensions - because it's more complicated that way. xD Sounds logical, right? xD
Mess around with the LFO subtractor's LFO, and the Duplicate Subtractor's features, like setting the pitch to zero (then it's more or less the same as the one below it.)
I should have used a sampler instead, cause these effects are easier to achieve with a static, retriggered singal. I mean, subtractor's sound is constantly in motion, or however you say that.


RobC
Posts: 1833
Joined: 10 Mar 2018

18 May 2018

Timmy Crowne wrote:
18 May 2018
Hey, your idea isn’t crazy or stupid. Are you thinking about ring modulation or phase modulation? The distinction is that ring modulation multiplies the amplitude of one signal by another, whereas it seems like your idea might be to combine signals of varying phase.

In that case, duplicated signals with identical phase would increase gain, and signals with inverted phase would sum to silence. Anything in between would produce comb filtering, which is basically a very short delay effect. You can try this by routing a signal into a Thor and passing it through the comb filter module. Routing an LFO to the filter frequency could produce the effect you’re after.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
It could be more of a phase modulation, and yes, the comb effect seems the more common result, in case of two near identical sounds - with slight adjustments, such as with pitch.

RobC
Posts: 1833
Joined: 10 Mar 2018

18 May 2018

jimmyklane wrote:
18 May 2018
RobC wrote:
18 May 2018
For a long time, before looking into it deeply, I thought that the brief explanation Ring Modulation means that you take the sum of two signals, the differences of two signals, and then you modulate between the summed sound and the differences sound. I thought of that, because when you check a stereo sound, usually the mono is thick, the differences are thin sounding, and many times, the Ring Modulation had this rapid movement with thin sound dominance. But that just explains why I imagined it the way I did.

This retarded thinking of mine (I really wonder what kind of retardation I have, because I'm pretty sure there's something unusual, at least) - resulted in an idea, though. Maybe this already is some existing effect - if so, anyone know the definition?

So, again, you take two signals, create a sum, and difference out of them; and then you simply modulate between hearing one or the other (sort of crossfading - if you use a square modulator then you rapidly switch between hearing sum, then difference).
Don't expect drastic changes with very different sound sources ~ but it rather gets interesting, if you take 1 sound, make a duplicate, where you change - say, its pitch, and then take the two and start the above experiment.

Is this crazy, or stupid?

Fitting silliness:



(Sticks is crazy, Knuckles [red guy] is stupid.)
[Everyone should watch Sonic Boom!]
You could be talking about the phase multiplication of Subtractor. It will subtract or multiply a phase coherent copy of its own oscillator. Try looking at the waves on an oscilloscope and you’ll see what it does to the waveforms! In fact, I’m starting a video series that begins with Subtractor and I’m editing the video for it now, so you could wait for that to hit in a few days to see it all happen in convenient video format!
It is based on that method ~ one of the best - yet obvious - features I learned regarding synthesizers, from subtractor.
Subtractor is my god. xD I've been using it since 11 years now!

jimmyklane
Posts: 740
Joined: 16 Apr 2018

18 May 2018

RobC wrote:
18 May 2018
jimmyklane wrote:
18 May 2018


You could be talking about the phase multiplication of Subtractor. It will subtract or multiply a phase coherent copy of its own oscillator. Try looking at the waves on an oscilloscope and you’ll see what it does to the waveforms! In fact, I’m starting a video series that begins with Subtractor and I’m editing the video for it now, so you could wait for that to hit in a few days to see it all happen in convenient video format!
It is based on that method ~ one of the best - yet obvious - features I learned regarding synthesizers, from subtractor.
Subtractor is my god. xD I've been using it since 11 years now!
I remember when it was the only synth in Reason....
DAW: Reason 12

SAMPLERS: Akai MPC 2000, E-mu SP1200, E-Mu e5000Ultra, Ensoniq EPS 16+, Akai S950, Maschine

SYNTHS: Mostly classic Polysynths and more modern Monosynths. All are mostly food for my samplers!

www.soundcloud.com/jimmyklane

RobC
Posts: 1833
Joined: 10 Mar 2018

18 May 2018

jimmyklane wrote:
18 May 2018
RobC wrote:
18 May 2018


It is based on that method ~ one of the best - yet obvious - features I learned regarding synthesizers, from subtractor.
Subtractor is my god. xD I've been using it since 11 years now!
I remember when it was the only synth in Reason....
It's a very capable synth - especially if you take it further into a sampler. Too bad I wasn't there when it all started; limitations teach a lot, and are inspiring ~ while the spoiling with all the tools can be rather overwhelming.

User avatar
Loque
Moderator
Posts: 11175
Joined: 28 Dec 2015

19 May 2018

I played around with the Thor idea and idd it sounds sometimes like a RM with pretty inharmonic note following. But in some cases it produced quite interesting results when used more complex waves instead of simple waves, which often sounds pretty hard synced and FMed, a bit unclean and unstable. Can be interesting, but not in all cases.

The problem with Thor is, i dont know, if it really "adds" or "subtracts" the signal, but i guess it mixes them. Thus there is another way required to prove your idea.
Reason12, Win10

RobC
Posts: 1833
Joined: 10 Mar 2018

19 May 2018

Loque wrote:
19 May 2018
I played around with the Thor idea and idd it sounds sometimes like a RM with pretty inharmonic note following. But in some cases it produced quite interesting results when used more complex waves instead of simple waves, which often sounds pretty hard synced and FMed, a bit unclean and unstable. Can be interesting, but not in all cases.

The problem with Thor is, i dont know, if it really "adds" or "subtracts" the signal, but i guess it mixes them. Thus there is another way required to prove your idea.
I noticed that, too that it has similar sound to other effects in some cases, but it really depends on the source sounds and how different they sound when summed, and subtracted.

Well, the combinator patch that I created and posted, does near exactly what I said, but I will rather create something with the use of samples, since as I said, two Subtractors, even if identical, are not always creating the same wave form in the same phase.
I wanted to use Thor, but didn't find my own default patch, that has everything on zero for an always fresh start.

I like these effects, cause they create more and more complex waveforms, which can make great SFX, modulator signals, or I think thanks to Grain, they can be more easily used to create melodic instruments, unlike with NN-XT.
Best of all, they easily work, even live. (Unlike something more complicated, like FM that relies on pitch.)

I wouldn't think this would be anything new though, since it's very simple, so it probably already existed.

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