Loops with tails are awesome... (for cool people only)

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RobC
Posts: 783
Joined: 10 Mar 2018

25 Apr 2018

...but loops with growing tails have a unique touch, too!

See, you might want to start the tail-chasing game...

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...where you cut the tail off of the end of a loop and mix it to the beginning, to get a more or less, seamlessly endless loop.

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It's great, but gets repetitive very quickly. Therefor, it's good to consider exporting a loop with growing tails, even if they have a surprising sampled effect to them (which can be pretty cool in my opinion).

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"Amateur ghetto stuff"? On its own, yes, but it's definitely something to try and works well in any music, not just Hip Hop!

I always make loops out of my own instruments, but so far, I've only made perfect loops - no growing tail (think buildup, such as with reverb), no tail at the end. Thus I decided to always export a whole loop, and make use of everything. Hell, you can even use the tail on its own for an impact, then mess around with that, reversing it, whatever you like.

Here's one of my regular endless loops:



They start off with a very interesting "ghost" chord with the tail mixed in. After looping it once, it's okay, second time it gets boring. Thus I would already start the second loop with a dry build up, to keep it interesting. Once the instrument no longer plays, I wouldn't just simply add the tail to the end, but reverse it, so even there, will be a surprising stop and a unique reversed sound.


P.S. Regarding title: Cool people won't have a problem with Tails, haha!

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Loque
Posts: 3635
Joined: 28 Dec 2015

25 Apr 2018

If you are a fan of "tails", try feedback loops. Simples setup is The Echo with a modulated filter in the break out and use a high feedback. For more complex setups use a 14:4 mixer (works also on SSL), connect your fx to the Send Out, and the fx Out to a mixer chanel. Now re-send the fx back to the device. Comes in handy with addtional processing, splitting, delaying, and so on. Modulate the send amount and the fx. Now use this setup with simple drum sound or some other snappy sound and you are done.

BUT BE WARNED! Feedback loops can create sudden high peaks or ultra loud sounds, so ALWAYS put a limiter before the audio output!
:reason: 10, Win10 64Bit.

RobC
Posts: 783
Joined: 10 Mar 2018

25 Apr 2018

Loque wrote:
25 Apr 2018
If you are a fan of "tails", try feedback loops. Simples setup is The Echo with a modulated filter in the break out and use a high feedback. For more complex setups use a 14:4 mixer (works also on SSL), connect your fx to the Send Out, and the fx Out to a mixer chanel. Now re-send the fx back to the device. Comes in handy with addtional processing, splitting, delaying, and so on. Modulate the send amount and the fx. Now use this setup with simple drum sound or some other snappy sound and you are done.

BUT BE WARNED! Feedback loops can create sudden high peaks or ultra loud sounds, so ALWAYS put a limiter before the audio output!
Definitely a fan on Tails, lol. (EDIT: I'll leave that typo there. xD)
But yeah, I will definitely also make use of delay effects of all kinds, including the repeater type, Dub effects, etc, messing around with delay time, feedback, and dry/wet amount ~ latter definitely helps to keep those overshoots at bay.

jimmyklane
Posts: 736
Joined: 16 Apr 2018

25 Apr 2018

I tend to allow the tails to ring out when recording effects on the way in, and use two audio tracks and alternate between them. The tail is ringing out in track one while track two is playing then I switch them up when track two runs out...
DAW: Reason 10,

SAMPLERS: Akai MPC 2000, E-mu SP1200, E-Mu e5000Ultra, Ensoniq EPS 16+, Akai S950, Maschine

SYNTHS: Mostly classic Polysynths and more modern Monosynths. All are mostly food for my samplers!

www.soundcloud.com/jimmyklane

RobC
Posts: 783
Joined: 10 Mar 2018

25 Apr 2018

jimmyklane wrote:
25 Apr 2018
I tend to allow the tails to ring out when recording effects on the way in, and use two audio tracks and alternate between them. The tail is ringing out in track one while track two is playing then I switch them up when track two runs out...
Clever solution! I wanted to try it that way, too (about time) and was wondering why they don't have multiple tracks within a track which can play at the same time, for such purposes...

jimmyklane
Posts: 736
Joined: 16 Apr 2018

25 Apr 2018

RobC wrote:
25 Apr 2018
jimmyklane wrote:
25 Apr 2018
I tend to allow the tails to ring out when recording effects on the way in, and use two audio tracks and alternate between them. The tail is ringing out in track one while track two is playing then I switch them up when track two runs out...
Clever solution! I wanted to try it that way, too (about time) and was wondering why they don't have multiple tracks within a track which can play at the same time, for such purposes...
I’ve never tried it (just left home with Reason running too!) but what about the “alternate takes”? Will they sound at the same time or if you offset them as I suggested?
DAW: Reason 10,

SAMPLERS: Akai MPC 2000, E-mu SP1200, E-Mu e5000Ultra, Ensoniq EPS 16+, Akai S950, Maschine

SYNTHS: Mostly classic Polysynths and more modern Monosynths. All are mostly food for my samplers!

www.soundcloud.com/jimmyklane

RobC
Posts: 783
Joined: 10 Mar 2018

25 Apr 2018

jimmyklane wrote:
25 Apr 2018
RobC wrote:
25 Apr 2018


Clever solution! I wanted to try it that way, too (about time) and was wondering why they don't have multiple tracks within a track which can play at the same time, for such purposes...
I’ve never tried it (just left home with Reason running too!) but what about the “alternate takes”? Will they sound at the same time or if you offset them as I suggested?
It just creates another audio track with another channel for the mixer (which wouldn't be necessary in this case).

jimmyklane
Posts: 736
Joined: 16 Apr 2018

25 Apr 2018

RobC wrote:
25 Apr 2018
jimmyklane wrote:
25 Apr 2018


I’ve never tried it (just left home with Reason running too!) but what about the “alternate takes”? Will they sound at the same time or if you offset them as I suggested?
It just creates another audio track with another channel for the mixer (which wouldn't be necessary in this case).
That’s actually exactly what happens when I use my particular method....two totally separate audio tracks with two audio tracks showing up in the mixer. I do my best to either finalize the EQ/Compressor/aux sends/ and inserts BEFORE I use “duplicate tracks and devices” to have that second channel. My way is a little inefficient DSP-wise, but it’s the trade off I need because 4-8 of my aux sends are actually going to hardware outputs in order to use rackmount effects units. The other reason is that I’ve often got delay or reverb tails a bar or two past the ending of the last note, and as the OP pointed out, the first notes will be totally dry....so by including that “trail” you cannot hear any difference when the loop restarts. For me these “loops” are often 16 or 32 bars long if they’re coming from an analog synth because they sound just a tiny bit different note to note and if you simply use 1-2 bars you can really tell the difference.

I also use the same technique for internal devices. Grain is a favorite for me to either sample or run into one of my samplers using it just as an effects unit (the Ensoniq EPS 16+ can do this with an expansion disk)....

This topic is very relevant to me because I record a lot to audio...even going so far as to use the “record source” button on internal tracks to create an audio file once the sound is exactly as I want it. I run the entire song (or parts of it) over MIDI with hardware, and record them in either all at once or one-by-one so I can use my racks on each device separately (I don’t have quite enough to handle every single output!).

Anyone have other solutions? Super interested!
DAW: Reason 10,

SAMPLERS: Akai MPC 2000, E-mu SP1200, E-Mu e5000Ultra, Ensoniq EPS 16+, Akai S950, Maschine

SYNTHS: Mostly classic Polysynths and more modern Monosynths. All are mostly food for my samplers!

www.soundcloud.com/jimmyklane

User avatar
Runner2x
Posts: 100
Joined: 26 Mar 2018
Location: Rabbit Hole

25 Apr 2018

Good tip. :thumbs_up:

RobC
Posts: 783
Joined: 10 Mar 2018

25 Apr 2018

jimmyklane wrote:
25 Apr 2018
RobC wrote:
25 Apr 2018


It just creates another audio track with another channel for the mixer (which wouldn't be necessary in this case).
That’s actually exactly what happens when I use my particular method....two totally separate audio tracks with two audio tracks showing up in the mixer. I do my best to either finalize the EQ/Compressor/aux sends/ and inserts BEFORE I use “duplicate tracks and devices” to have that second channel. My way is a little inefficient DSP-wise, but it’s the trade off I need because 4-8 of my aux sends are actually going to hardware outputs in order to use rackmount effects units. The other reason is that I’ve often got delay or reverb tails a bar or two past the ending of the last note, and as the OP pointed out, the first notes will be totally dry....so by including that “trail” you cannot hear any difference when the loop restarts. For me these “loops” are often 16 or 32 bars long if they’re coming from an analog synth because they sound just a tiny bit different note to note and if you simply use 1-2 bars you can really tell the difference.

I also use the same technique for internal devices. Grain is a favorite for me to either sample or run into one of my samplers using it just as an effects unit (the Ensoniq EPS 16+ can do this with an expansion disk)....

This topic is very relevant to me because I record a lot to audio...even going so far as to use the “record source” button on internal tracks to create an audio file once the sound is exactly as I want it. I run the entire song (or parts of it) over MIDI with hardware, and record them in either all at once or one-by-one so I can use my racks on each device separately (I don’t have quite enough to handle every single output!).

Anyone have other solutions? Super interested!
I'm more of a nut about the 'computer generated' sound ~ heck I don't even like that Subtractor and alike has that "free run", unsynchronized sound.

I do envy dedicated hardware synths, though. : P

RobC
Posts: 783
Joined: 10 Mar 2018

25 Apr 2018

Runner2x wrote:
25 Apr 2018
Good tip. :thumbs_up:
Tails makes everything look good. : )

jimmyklane
Posts: 736
Joined: 16 Apr 2018

25 Apr 2018

RobC wrote:
25 Apr 2018
jimmyklane wrote:
25 Apr 2018


That’s actually exactly what happens when I use my particular method....two totally separate audio tracks with two audio tracks showing up in the mixer. I do my best to either finalize the EQ/Compressor/aux sends/ and inserts BEFORE I use “duplicate tracks and devices” to have that second channel. My way is a little inefficient DSP-wise, but it’s the trade off I need because 4-8 of my aux sends are actually going to hardware outputs in order to use rackmount effects units. The other reason is that I’ve often got delay or reverb tails a bar or two past the ending of the last note, and as the OP pointed out, the first notes will be totally dry....so by including that “trail” you cannot hear any difference when the loop restarts. For me these “loops” are often 16 or 32 bars long if they’re coming from an analog synth because they sound just a tiny bit different note to note and if you simply use 1-2 bars you can really tell the difference.

I also use the same technique for internal devices. Grain is a favorite for me to either sample or run into one of my samplers using it just as an effects unit (the Ensoniq EPS 16+ can do this with an expansion disk)....

This topic is very relevant to me because I record a lot to audio...even going so far as to use the “record source” button on internal tracks to create an audio file once the sound is exactly as I want it. I run the entire song (or parts of it) over MIDI with hardware, and record them in either all at once or one-by-one so I can use my racks on each device separately (I don’t have quite enough to handle every single output!).

Anyone have other solutions? Super interested!
I'm more of a nut about the 'computer generated' sound ~ heck I don't even like that Subtractor and alike has that "free run", unsynchronized sound.

I do envy dedicated hardware synths, though. : P
In that case, samplers are your friend. That “free run” sound you dislike is gone...you get the exact start point that you sampled every note. This is great for basses and analog kicks, as that free-running sound is the enemy of a solid attack on every note.
DAW: Reason 10,

SAMPLERS: Akai MPC 2000, E-mu SP1200, E-Mu e5000Ultra, Ensoniq EPS 16+, Akai S950, Maschine

SYNTHS: Mostly classic Polysynths and more modern Monosynths. All are mostly food for my samplers!

www.soundcloud.com/jimmyklane

RobC
Posts: 783
Joined: 10 Mar 2018

25 Apr 2018

jimmyklane wrote:
25 Apr 2018
RobC wrote:
25 Apr 2018


I'm more of a nut about the 'computer generated' sound ~ heck I don't even like that Subtractor and alike has that "free run", unsynchronized sound.

I do envy dedicated hardware synths, though. : P
In that case, samplers are your friend. That “free run” sound you dislike is gone...you get the exact start point that you sampled every note. This is great for basses and analog kicks, as that free-running sound is the enemy of a solid attack on every note.
I always generate sounds with a synth, then sample. It's not bad with synth drum creation, though - each hit is different and you can choose the right one. I use both worlds.

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