Making any sound fuller

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RobC
Posts: 783
Joined: 10 Mar 2018

20 Apr 2018

jimmyklane wrote:
20 Apr 2018
RobC wrote:
20 Apr 2018


Interesting... I have a similar effect when I export 1 long note made with a very characteristic FM sound made with subtractor, then import that to NNXT. The higher the notes, the brighter, the lower, the - less detailed? What's the right word. Sort of a keyboard tracking effect. I'm fine with it, but I'd prefer to go without it, heh. A tolerated effect in my case.

Yeah, computer based samplers tend to just make the note dull as you move down the keyboard, and it is actually tracking the keyboard you are correct. In the older samplers from late 80’s/early 90’s this “dulling effect” is often counteracted by aliasing, so a sort of “fake” brightness at the lowest octaves. If you sample a very low note, you’ll get the opposite effect, where the sound is bright like the original in the bass area and has distinct aliasing in the upper registers. The NN19/NNXT are designed to minimize this....but take off high quality interpolation and turn on low bandwidth and you can get a bit of the old sampler sound.
Interesting, I totally forgot about the high quality interpolation button. The manual didn't say that much what it does, just that sound might be better. I usually prefer the raw sound. Gotta check again, listening closely what differences there will be.

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Runner2x
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20 Apr 2018

+1 for Saturation.

Love me some Soundtoys Decapitator.

RobC
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20 Apr 2018

Runner2x wrote:
20 Apr 2018
+1 for Saturation.

Love me some Soundtoys Decapitator.
I must say, it looks so fancy! : P
My dream was doing all analog work...

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Marco Raaphorst
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20 Apr 2018

you should never make everything sound the same.

if everything sounds full, it is full of shit.
Marco Raaphorst

Music & soundware https://melodiefabriek.com.
Check out my new ReFill Rockmen: https://melodiefabriek.com/blog/rockmen ... available/

RobC
Posts: 783
Joined: 10 Mar 2018

20 Apr 2018

Marco Raaphorst wrote:
20 Apr 2018
you should never make everything sound the same.

if everything sounds full, it is full of shit.
I said 'any', not 'every', in the title.

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selig
Moderator
Posts: 6989
Joined: 15 Jan 2015

20 Apr 2018

RobC wrote:
20 Apr 2018
Marco Raaphorst wrote:
20 Apr 2018
you should never make everything sound the same.

if everything sounds full, it is full of shit.
I said 'any', not 'every', in the title.
Just as important IMO to know how to make any sound thinner, but you don't hear folks ask for that as often… ;)
Selig Audio, LLC

jimmyklane
Posts: 736
Joined: 16 Apr 2018

20 Apr 2018

RobC wrote:
20 Apr 2018
Runner2x wrote:
20 Apr 2018
+1 for Saturation.

Love me some Soundtoys Decapitator.
I must say, it looks so fancy! : P
My dream was doing all analog work...
As the RX950 contest showed, you can get some really great work out of simple stock Reason devices! I’m almost entirely “analog” (in that I’ve got a bunch of analog synths but my samplers and effects racks are obviously all digital except for the outputs) and I even record to tape on occasion. It’s really the workflow and sound creation that is totally different. If I’ve got a monosynths that I want polyphonic, I’m going to be sampling one single note in and that’s going to inform my sound design. I have some really really great effects (Eventide, Lexicon, Strymon, Meris, etc) but I only have so many and thus have to print effects into the daw along with the dry signal. There are some sonic advantages, but nowadays you can have an “analog” sound both in Reason itself and especially with some of the uHe instruments like Repro 1/5, or even the Arturia (the Matrix 12V is impressively close to my actual Matrix 12!) stuff.

So, my advice is not to worry too much about having an all-analog setup. They sound different because you program them differently. I rarely attempt to recreate my Oberheim using Europa....Or recreate the transwaves of my Ensoniq using Grain....instead they are all tools that get used differently. I have all this gear because I was sequencing on an Atari ST using Cubase when I got ReBirth....and using the same setup when I got Reason 1. I used Reason like a modular synth, a self contained “system” that was then sequenced externally.


Nowadays, of course it’s flipped around. Reason sequences all of my synths and samplers with external midi devices, and the internal sounds are often sent out to outboard rack gear or through synth filters. Reason is an incredible tool and has so much creative potential compared to more traditional DAWs like Cubase.
DAW: Reason 10,

SAMPLERS: Akai MPC 2000, E-mu SP1200, E-Mu e5000Ultra, Ensoniq EPS 16+, Akai S950, Maschine

SYNTHS: Mostly classic Polysynths and more modern Monosynths. All are mostly food for my samplers!

www.soundcloud.com/jimmyklane

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Runner2x
Posts: 100
Joined: 26 Mar 2018
Location: Rabbit Hole

20 Apr 2018

RobC wrote:
20 Apr 2018
Marco Raaphorst wrote:
20 Apr 2018
you should never make everything sound the same.

if everything sounds full, it is full of shit.
I said 'any', not 'every', in the title.
:lol:

I was about to say...who said anything about making things sound the same?! :D

But just for the sake of support - contrast is indeed important with all aspects of music. Even something like groove. Groove isn't groovy unless it has something to groove against. To give the "darling killer" some credit, there are plenty of folks out there who want to put something in a "master chain" and they probably overdo it. My way of working is to process things individually as much as I can. I don't even like using master send fx actually but that is more suitable for electronic music of course.

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Marco Raaphorst
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20 Apr 2018

Runner2x wrote:
20 Apr 2018
RobC wrote:
20 Apr 2018


I said 'any', not 'every', in the title.
:lol:

I was about to say...who said anything about making things sound the same?! :D

But just for the sake of support - contrast is indeed important with all aspects of music. Even something like groove. Groove isn't groovy unless it has something to groove against. To give the "darling killer" some credit, there are plenty of folks out there who want to put something in a "master chain" and they probably overdo it. My way of working is to process things individually as much as I can. I don't even like using master send fx actually but that is more suitable for electronic music of course.
Yeah man. Contrast is KEY!

That is my number one rule. Extreme contrast.
Marco Raaphorst

Music & soundware https://melodiefabriek.com.
Check out my new ReFill Rockmen: https://melodiefabriek.com/blog/rockmen ... available/

RobC
Posts: 783
Joined: 10 Mar 2018

20 Apr 2018

selig wrote:
20 Apr 2018
RobC wrote:
20 Apr 2018


I said 'any', not 'every', in the title.
Just as important IMO to know how to make any sound thinner, but you don't hear folks ask for that as often… ;)
Make a duplicate, invert phase, start messing around with things like pitch offsetting, delaying, filtering etc. It's a very weird way, I know, but sounds very interesting.

RobC
Posts: 783
Joined: 10 Mar 2018

20 Apr 2018

jimmyklane wrote:
20 Apr 2018
RobC wrote:
20 Apr 2018


I must say, it looks so fancy! : P
My dream was doing all analog work...
As the RX950 contest showed, you can get some really great work out of simple stock Reason devices! I’m almost entirely “analog” (in that I’ve got a bunch of analog synths but my samplers and effects racks are obviously all digital except for the outputs) and I even record to tape on occasion. It’s really the workflow and sound creation that is totally different. If I’ve got a monosynths that I want polyphonic, I’m going to be sampling one single note in and that’s going to inform my sound design. I have some really really great effects (Eventide, Lexicon, Strymon, Meris, etc) but I only have so many and thus have to print effects into the daw along with the dry signal. There are some sonic advantages, but nowadays you can have an “analog” sound both in Reason itself and especially with some of the uHe instruments like Repro 1/5, or even the Arturia (the Matrix 12V is impressively close to my actual Matrix 12!) stuff.

So, my advice is not to worry too much about having an all-analog setup. They sound different because you program them differently. I rarely attempt to recreate my Oberheim using Europa....Or recreate the transwaves of my Ensoniq using Grain....instead they are all tools that get used differently. I have all this gear because I was sequencing on an Atari ST using Cubase when I got ReBirth....and using the same setup when I got Reason 1. I used Reason like a modular synth, a self contained “system” that was then sequenced externally.


Nowadays, of course it’s flipped around. Reason sequences all of my synths and samplers with external midi devices, and the internal sounds are often sent out to outboard rack gear or through synth filters. Reason is an incredible tool and has so much creative potential compared to more traditional DAWs like Cubase.
Yeah, after seeing prices, I stopped dreaming. xD I once was also interested in getting various hardware tools, like Lexicon MX200 or 400 - if I remember the type right. The microKorg, Korg R3, Korg Radias; some Behringer mastering devices, but then one day I read in Reason's manual, that Reason can sound as good as or better than hardware counterparts. - Before that, I was convinced that hardware would sound best. That said, MIDI controllers still don't give all the fun like a microKorg could... Oh well, at least the Tablet + MIDI controller combo might ease my drolling one day, lol.

RobC
Posts: 783
Joined: 10 Mar 2018

20 Apr 2018

Runner2x wrote:
20 Apr 2018
RobC wrote:
20 Apr 2018


I said 'any', not 'every', in the title.
:lol:

I was about to say...who said anything about making things sound the same?! :D

But just for the sake of support - contrast is indeed important with all aspects of music. Even something like groove. Groove isn't groovy unless it has something to groove against. To give the "darling killer" some credit, there are plenty of folks out there who want to put something in a "master chain" and they probably overdo it. My way of working is to process things individually as much as I can. I don't even like using master send fx actually but that is more suitable for electronic music of course.
Normally, it's a basic rule of mine that every single sound has to be unique and work well both on its own and together with other sounds.

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aeox
Posts: 1536
Joined: 23 Feb 2017
Location: Oregon

20 Apr 2018

Fuller sound 101:

Put 15 sausage fatteners on the master.

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aeox
Posts: 1536
Joined: 23 Feb 2017
Location: Oregon

20 Apr 2018

Runner2x wrote:
20 Apr 2018
To give the "darling killer" some credit, there are plenty of folks out there who want to put something in a "master chain" and they probably overdo it. My way of working is to process things individually as much as I can. I don't even like using master send fx actually but that is more suitable for electronic music of course.
Many great mix/masters have been done this way. Nothing wrong with mixing into master effects as long as you know what you're doing.This is a technique done by many different people! I personally feel that this method is most important for independent electronic producers, as it helps them realize that they can't just fix any problems in the master section. The mix BECOMES the master, it's all one! Now, if I could just learn how to mix properly....

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Runner2x
Posts: 100
Joined: 26 Mar 2018
Location: Rabbit Hole

20 Apr 2018

aeox wrote:
20 Apr 2018
Fuller sound 101:

Put 15 sausage fatteners on the master.
aeox wrote:
20 Apr 2018
The mix BECOMES the master, it's all one! Now, if I could just learn how to mix properly....
aeox edition.jpg
aeox edition.jpg (22.66 KiB) Viewed 653 times

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aeox
Posts: 1536
Joined: 23 Feb 2017
Location: Oregon

20 Apr 2018

Runner2x wrote:
20 Apr 2018
aeox wrote:
20 Apr 2018
Fuller sound 101:

Put 15 sausage fatteners on the master.
aeox wrote:
20 Apr 2018
The mix BECOMES the master, it's all one! Now, if I could just learn how to mix properly....
aeox edition.jpg
Hahah.

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Oquasec
Posts: 1936
Joined: 05 Mar 2017

20 Apr 2018

Your definition of fuller.
The methods commonly known to achieve a "fuller" sound.
The steps you take aligning to what could get the desired result.
All the fancy stuff is basically varying degrees of wet or very dry signals not ran through anything.
Reason/FL Studio.

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Runner2x
Posts: 100
Joined: 26 Mar 2018
Location: Rabbit Hole

20 Apr 2018

aeox wrote:
20 Apr 2018
Many great mix/masters have been done this way. Nothing wrong with mixing into master effects as long as you know what you're doing.This is a technique done by many different people! I personally feel that this method is most important for independent electronic producers, as it helps them realize that they can't just fix any problems in the master section. The mix BECOMES the master, it's all one! Now, if I could just learn how to mix properly....
Nothing wrong with it and I know many people do it but I personally think it leads to stagnation. I was taught to have many different reverbs, for example, that aren't necessarily as cohesive as you think you'd want them to be. There are no rules in electronic music. We're not trying to emulate a space. Hell, it took me a while to say f@ck grouping all of my drums together - I'm fixing to get everything working together with my naked ear. Living on the wild side baby.

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selig
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Posts: 6989
Joined: 15 Jan 2015

20 Apr 2018

aeox wrote:
20 Apr 2018
Runner2x wrote:
20 Apr 2018
To give the "darling killer" some credit, there are plenty of folks out there who want to put something in a "master chain" and they probably overdo it. My way of working is to process things individually as much as I can. I don't even like using master send fx actually but that is more suitable for electronic music of course.
Many great mix/masters have been done this way. Nothing wrong with mixing into master effects as long as you know what you're doing.This is a technique done by many different people! I personally feel that this method is most important for independent electronic producers, as it helps them realize that they can't just fix any problems in the master section. The mix BECOMES the master, it's all one! Now, if I could just learn how to mix properly....
Engineers say they do this, but I don't know how many describe the process in detail. I would imagine they're not doing much at all, and have a very planned out system that helps them know what to expect.

Otherwise, you're fighting against yourself at every stage: turn up one thing and many others get quieter, turn something loud down and the softer things get louder.

As I am want to say: it's hard enough mixing when the elements you DON'T adjust stay put. When THEY start moving around even when not touched, all bets are off! ;)
Selig Audio, LLC

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aeox
Posts: 1536
Joined: 23 Feb 2017
Location: Oregon

20 Apr 2018

selig wrote:
20 Apr 2018


Engineers say they do this, but I don't know how many describe the process in detail. I would imagine they're not doing much at all, and have a very planned out system that helps them know what to expect.
Bingo :thumbs_up:

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Runner2x
Posts: 100
Joined: 26 Mar 2018
Location: Rabbit Hole

20 Apr 2018

aeox wrote:
20 Apr 2018
selig wrote:
20 Apr 2018


Engineers say they do this, but I don't know how many describe the process in detail. I would imagine they're not doing much at all, and have a very planned out system that helps them know what to expect.
Bingo :thumbs_up:
Mmmm. I think there are lines to be drawn between production / mixing / mastering but those lines are irreversibly blurred these days. There's no way in hell I'm using master send fx when I'm producing a track because if anything those strokes are supposed to be subtle. Heh. Pointless words here now. I'm reaching for filters right after the sound is produced for a channel and I blur the lines myself. :)

jimmyklane
Posts: 736
Joined: 16 Apr 2018

20 Apr 2018

RobC wrote:
20 Apr 2018
jimmyklane wrote:
20 Apr 2018


As the RX950 contest showed, you can get some really great work out of simple stock Reason devices! I’m almost entirely “analog” (in that I’ve got a bunch of analog synths but my samplers and effects racks are obviously all digital except for the outputs) and I even record to tape on occasion. It’s really the workflow and sound creation that is totally different. If I’ve got a monosynths that I want polyphonic, I’m going to be sampling one single note in and that’s going to inform my sound design. I have some really really great effects (Eventide, Lexicon, Strymon, Meris, etc) but I only have so many and thus have to print effects into the daw along with the dry signal. There are some sonic advantages, but nowadays you can have an “analog” sound both in Reason itself and especially with some of the uHe instruments like Repro 1/5, or even the Arturia (the Matrix 12V is impressively close to my actual Matrix 12!) stuff.

So, my advice is not to worry too much about having an all-analog setup. They sound different because you program them differently. I rarely attempt to recreate my Oberheim using Europa....Or recreate the transwaves of my Ensoniq using Grain....instead they are all tools that get used differently. I have all this gear because I was sequencing on an Atari ST using Cubase when I got ReBirth....and using the same setup when I got Reason 1. I used Reason like a modular synth, a self contained “system” that was then sequenced externally.


Nowadays, of course it’s flipped around. Reason sequences all of my synths and samplers with external midi devices, and the internal sounds are often sent out to outboard rack gear or through synth filters. Reason is an incredible tool and has so much creative potential compared to more traditional DAWs like Cubase.
Yeah, after seeing prices, I stopped dreaming. xD I once was also interested in getting various hardware tools, like Lexicon MX200 or 400 - if I remember the type right. The microKorg, Korg R3, Korg Radias; some Behringer mastering devices, but then one day I read in Reason's manual, that Reason can sound as good as or better than hardware counterparts. - Before that, I was convinced that hardware would sound best. That said, MIDI controllers still don't give all the fun like a microKorg could... Oh well, at least the Tablet + MIDI controller combo might ease my drolling one day, lol.
I’ll be honest with you....and don’t take this as me being a snob....the type of analog you mentioned will sound WORSE than Reason. Probably by a lot.

There are plenty of low-ish cost analog synths that sound really really great. I own a few. But for processing? You’re talking about thousands of dollars on a single EQ or compressor or Reverb unit. If you would like some of the sound of hardware, I’d be happy to give you some convolution impulses that I’ve created using my gear. Just PM me.

For less money, you can get something like the Eventide H9 pedal. I was so impressed I picked up a 2nd one...it has several sounds that even my H3000 can’t do, which is really cool for a glorified guitar pedal. The Meris and Strymon pedals are fantastic as well, and I’ve got them permanently connected via the patchbay to use as send effects for my synths and samplers. They are far less expensive and sound absolutely fantastic. The less expensive Lexicon products are completely outclassed by modern reverb plugins, but something like the 480L still has a sound that I’ve yet to find a plugin for. The Lexicon PCM91 plugin suite sounds pretty much identical, but is over $1000, so you may as well buy hardware with that money, IMO.

So I guess my point is that software is the equal of hardware unless we are talking vintage synths/samplers, or very highly regarded classic effects units. You’ve got an incredible suite of tools at hand in Reason.
DAW: Reason 10,

SAMPLERS: Akai MPC 2000, E-mu SP1200, E-Mu e5000Ultra, Ensoniq EPS 16+, Akai S950, Maschine

SYNTHS: Mostly classic Polysynths and more modern Monosynths. All are mostly food for my samplers!

www.soundcloud.com/jimmyklane

RobC
Posts: 783
Joined: 10 Mar 2018

21 Apr 2018

jimmyklane wrote:
20 Apr 2018
RobC wrote:
20 Apr 2018


Yeah, after seeing prices, I stopped dreaming. xD I once was also interested in getting various hardware tools, like Lexicon MX200 or 400 - if I remember the type right. The microKorg, Korg R3, Korg Radias; some Behringer mastering devices, but then one day I read in Reason's manual, that Reason can sound as good as or better than hardware counterparts. - Before that, I was convinced that hardware would sound best. That said, MIDI controllers still don't give all the fun like a microKorg could... Oh well, at least the Tablet + MIDI controller combo might ease my drolling one day, lol.
I’ll be honest with you....and don’t take this as me being a snob....the type of analog you mentioned will sound WORSE than Reason. Probably by a lot.

There are plenty of low-ish cost analog synths that sound really really great. I own a few. But for processing? You’re talking about thousands of dollars on a single EQ or compressor or Reverb unit. If you would like some of the sound of hardware, I’d be happy to give you some convolution impulses that I’ve created using my gear. Just PM me.

For less money, you can get something like the Eventide H9 pedal. I was so impressed I picked up a 2nd one...it has several sounds that even my H3000 can’t do, which is really cool for a glorified guitar pedal. The Meris and Strymon pedals are fantastic as well, and I’ve got them permanently connected via the patchbay to use as send effects for my synths and samplers. They are far less expensive and sound absolutely fantastic. The less expensive Lexicon products are completely outclassed by modern reverb plugins, but something like the 480L still has a sound that I’ve yet to find a plugin for. The Lexicon PCM91 plugin suite sounds pretty much identical, but is over $1000, so you may as well buy hardware with that money, IMO.

So I guess my point is that software is the equal of hardware unless we are talking vintage synths/samplers, or very highly regarded classic effects units. You’ve got an incredible suite of tools at hand in Reason.
What I mentioned is virtual analog, and it's not about sound, but rather the portability and dedicated, physical synthesizer. Something that's good to sketch around with. I also was looking for some sampler synthesizer - something like Reason's NN19 at least. I'd still love to own an analog synthesizer that has features like Subtractor one day. But for now, I just stick to Reason - and probably Reaktor.

RobC
Posts: 783
Joined: 10 Mar 2018

21 Apr 2018

Oquasec wrote:
20 Apr 2018
Your definition of fuller.
The methods commonly known to achieve a "fuller" sound.
The steps you take aligning to what could get the desired result.
All the fancy stuff is basically varying degrees of wet or very dry signals not ran through anything.
Quietly I say, I also meant spreading a sound a bit wider on the frequency spectrum.

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Marco Raaphorst
Posts: 2074
Joined: 22 Jan 2015
Contact:

21 Apr 2018

RobC wrote:
21 Apr 2018
Oquasec wrote:
20 Apr 2018
Your definition of fuller.
The methods commonly known to achieve a "fuller" sound.
The steps you take aligning to what could get the desired result.
All the fancy stuff is basically varying degrees of wet or very dry signals not ran through anything.
Quietly I say, I also meant spreading a sound a bit wider on the frequency spectrum.
Make it sound like a Dirac tone? :)
Marco Raaphorst

Music & soundware https://melodiefabriek.com.
Check out my new ReFill Rockmen: https://melodiefabriek.com/blog/rockmen ... available/

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