i suck on mixing and mastering

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aminionarris
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Joined: 13 Apr 2018
Location: Rostock Germany

19 Apr 2018

Kalm wrote:
19 Apr 2018
I agree with Selig, start with one thing first. Understand your difference in levels. Everyone here is pointing at your listening environment which is the truest statement in life but, thats something I can't really address unless posted. If you cant work on your listening environment first or you're using a good pair of headphones then proceed to the second paragraph.

The number one issue I hear people having trouble with when it comes to levels is that they want to use processors and effects to fix the simple problems and basic aspects of a mix. Understand that the biggest change that can happen to your music besides a listening environment is differences in levels. That will change both dynamics and frequency response of your sounds relative to each other. Learn to balance them first. Turn down and listen to 2 or 3 tracks similar to your mix. Then before touching any eq or compression or anything, just try to level match as best as possible your sounds to theirs. Don't worry about brightness, or color, or transient control and that good stuff yet. Levels is 50% of your mix.

Second, get a system to setting your levels every time you open your mix. Remember the changes you make in the beginning will effect everything down the chain as you mix. Find yourself a workflow when you open a mix and perform leveling that way every time you start a song, you know how to get expected results, not just randomly attacking each problem as they present themselves. One such things people do is keep permanent monitoring levels. This is to alleviate hearing changes in frequency response and dynamics from constantly turning up your monitoring environment. When you have a monitoring reference level, youll always know when something is too loud or too quiet because you can't just simply touch the master output knob of your interface and crank things up. Leave it alone, no touchy.
Hi, thanks for you response too.

If i understand right, first thing (after the right environment) is simple the level of my tracks in one project.
So till now im realy overhelmed of this helpfull community so i will try to create my next project here in different steps to learn :).

Greetings Martin

jimmyklane
Posts: 740
Joined: 16 Apr 2018

19 Apr 2018

RobC wrote:
19 Apr 2018
jimmyklane wrote:
19 Apr 2018


I’m sorry, but I completely disagree. They should NOT sound at the same perceived volume because our ears are not balanced. See the fletcher-munson curves for details. Even when a monitoring system is calibrated to 83dB SPL sine waves will sound louder as the spectrum gets higher....to a point, and then they get softer.
It's true that our ears react differently at different audio levels, but if we listen to everything at a target audio level (matching the given sound's loudness to it), then why is it that much of a problem if it's balanced to our hearing. Or why can we find people suggesting doing that? Why did it work for me?
Why did it work for you? Well, perhaps you’re correct....or it could be that you adapted to it. Or both, or neither. I’ve always calibrated my room with pink noise as opposed to sine waves, so both approaches could be equally valid. I think perhaps I just read you as stating that equal volume sine waves should sound like equal volume sine waves, and it seems you’re actually saying that one should adjust UNTIL they sound equal.

That said, I absolutely hate working in rooms with an equalizer strapped to the speakers. Too much phase distortion that happens and I can hear it in (for example) hats and vocals.
DAW: Reason 12

SAMPLERS: Akai MPC 2000, E-mu SP1200, E-Mu e5000Ultra, Ensoniq EPS 16+, Akai S950, Maschine

SYNTHS: Mostly classic Polysynths and more modern Monosynths. All are mostly food for my samplers!

www.soundcloud.com/jimmyklane

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Marco Raaphorst
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Location: The Hague, The Netherlands
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20 Apr 2018

There are only flat response curves. Same as with color calibration.

You set the norm and anyone should adjust his/her ears to that. Eq cannot fix bad room acoustics.

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normen
Posts: 3431
Joined: 16 Jan 2015

20 Apr 2018

aminionarris wrote:
19 Apr 2018
@normen genau so ist es, ich bastel seid 15 Jahren im Kämmerlein umher, leider fehlt mir wohl wirklich das knowhow. Ich verlasse mich komplett aufs Gehör ohne zu wissen an was ich da gerade drehe ;).
Versuch' mal "weniger ist mehr". Wenn ich mir die Tracks so anhöre dann ballert die Bass Drum glaube ich deswegen nicht weil da noch soviel anderes Zeug rumfliegt im Bassbereich. Also wenn der ganze Pegel im Bass runter geht dann steht die Bass Drum mehr raus und kann auch den Magen bewegen :)

Generell weniger versuchen "fett zu machen" sondern mehr zu gucken wo man das hat was man braucht und versuchen das hervorzuheben. Sei es einfach heftiger aufs Keyboard hauen, andere Sachen in dem Frequenzbereich vielleicht nicht zu spielen oder wirklich am Ende im Mix einen EQ benutzen. Aber das ist dann eben genau dass, Du benutzt einen EQ um etwas bestimmtes zu erreichen, nicht um "fetter zu machen" - deswegen helfen Blaupausen nix. Wie Selig sagt fängt es beim Song an und geht beim Arrangement weiter, das sind schon 50% vom Sound den Du mit Mix und Master einfach nicht mehr wettmachen kannst.

Hope this helps ;)

Edit: So the others have fun too heres the google translate version ;)
Try 'less is more'. If I listen to the tracks like that then the bass drum sounds so I do not think so because there are so many other stuff flying around in the bass range. So if the whole level goes down in the bass then the bass drum is more out and can also move the stomach :)

Generally less try to "fat" but more to look where you have what you need and try to highlight. Just hit it harder on the keyboard, maybe not play other things in the frequency range, or really use an EQ in the mix at the end. But that's just that, you use an EQ to achieve something specific, not to "make fatter" - that's why blueprints do not help. As Selig says it starts with the song and continues with the arrangement, that is already 50% of the sound that you can not make up for with mix and master.

RobC
Posts: 1832
Joined: 10 Mar 2018

20 Apr 2018

jimmyklane wrote:
19 Apr 2018
RobC wrote:
19 Apr 2018


It's true that our ears react differently at different audio levels, but if we listen to everything at a target audio level (matching the given sound's loudness to it), then why is it that much of a problem if it's balanced to our hearing. Or why can we find people suggesting doing that? Why did it work for me?
Why did it work for you? Well, perhaps you’re correct....or it could be that you adapted to it. Or both, or neither. I’ve always calibrated my room with pink noise as opposed to sine waves, so both approaches could be equally valid. I think perhaps I just read you as stating that equal volume sine waves should sound like equal volume sine waves, and it seems you’re actually saying that one should adjust UNTIL they sound equal.

That said, I absolutely hate working in rooms with an equalizer strapped to the speakers. Too much phase distortion that happens and I can hear it in (for example) hats and vocals.
"actually saying that one should adjust UNTIL they [sine wave tones] sound equal." There's the key!

FIR filters are better than IIR ones. I can only make use of it after preprocessing sound, though. So, apply system correcting equalization, then continue working. Maybe by splitting the desired sound into 9 bands, exporting, importing, set audio levels - and at least that way you overcome the added delay and CPU burning. It's complicated to work that way, though. ...and pretty limited, too.

RobC
Posts: 1832
Joined: 10 Mar 2018

20 Apr 2018

Marco Raaphorst wrote:
20 Apr 2018
There are only flat response curves. Same as with color calibration.

You set the norm and anyone should adjust his/her ears to that. Eq cannot fix bad room acoustics.
Listeners won't adjust. They will just close your music and move on.

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Marco Raaphorst
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Location: The Hague, The Netherlands
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20 Apr 2018

RobC wrote:
20 Apr 2018
Marco Raaphorst wrote:
20 Apr 2018
There are only flat response curves. Same as with color calibration.

You set the norm and anyone should adjust his/her ears to that. Eq cannot fix bad room acoustics.
Listeners won't adjust. They will just close your music and move on.
Listeners don’t give a fuck about sound.

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normen
Posts: 3431
Joined: 16 Jan 2015

20 Apr 2018

Marco Raaphorst wrote:
20 Apr 2018
Listeners don’t give a fuck about sound.
They don't give a fuck about objective sound, most do have very specific listening habits, starting from the distortion sound of a guitar or the snare drum sound and ending in a typical Hi-Fi "Smiling" curve on their headphones - which basically mimics F-M as well, just as the "treble" and "bass" knobs on consumer amplifiers/receivers do.

RobC
Posts: 1832
Joined: 10 Mar 2018

20 Apr 2018

Marco Raaphorst wrote:
20 Apr 2018
RobC wrote:
20 Apr 2018


Listeners won't adjust. They will just close your music and move on.
Listeners don’t give a fuck about sound.
Listeners forgive bad sound - if - the music is good.

Now, if the music is good and so is the sound, then: thing$ like Bernie Grundman'$ 80'$ era will happen.

RobC
Posts: 1832
Joined: 10 Mar 2018

20 Apr 2018

normen wrote:
20 Apr 2018
Marco Raaphorst wrote:
20 Apr 2018
Listeners don’t give a fuck about sound.
They don't give a fuck about objective sound, most do have very specific listening habits, starting from the distortion sound of a guitar or the snare drum sound and ending in a typical Hi-Fi "Smiling" curve on their headphones - which basically mimics F-M as well, just as the "treble" and "bass" knobs on consumer amplifiers/receivers do.
Unless the listener's system was created for that 1 individual's hearing, and everything is setup under laboratory circumstances, the disco smile will never ever even get them close to what that true calibration for an individual's hearing sounds like.

I don't get why nobody is willing to share, just why would it be better if the frequency spectrum is Not calibrated to an individual's hearing, but has even just variations/imperfections, like boosts and drops...

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normen
Posts: 3431
Joined: 16 Jan 2015

20 Apr 2018

RobC wrote:
20 Apr 2018
Unless the listener's system was created for that 1 individual's hearing, and everything is setup under laboratory circumstances, the disco smile will never ever even get them close to what that true calibration for an individual's hearing sounds like.

I don't get why nobody is willing to share, just why would it be better if the frequency spectrum is Not calibrated to an individual's hearing, but has even just variations/imperfections, like boosts and drops...
The thing is I can access not just anecdotal information about this but actual DATA :) Tests like these have been done on thousands of people. The brain does what you want your headphones to do. Yes, every hearing system works differently but the brain has an EQ to adapt for that.

But! It can also adapt to you always boosting the highs and lows according to F-M and tell you "that sounds normal". It can also tell you that if your friend puts on headphones and tells you "this sounds better" that it indeed does sound better. Or if you just paid 3000$ :)

RobC
Posts: 1832
Joined: 10 Mar 2018

20 Apr 2018

normen wrote:
20 Apr 2018
RobC wrote:
20 Apr 2018
Unless the listener's system was created for that 1 individual's hearing, and everything is setup under laboratory circumstances, the disco smile will never ever even get them close to what that true calibration for an individual's hearing sounds like.

I don't get why nobody is willing to share, just why would it be better if the frequency spectrum is Not calibrated to an individual's hearing, but has even just variations/imperfections, like boosts and drops...
The thing is I can access not just anecdotal information about this but actual DATA :) Tests like these have been done on thousands of people. The brain does what you want your headphones to do. Yes, every hearing system works differently but the brain has an EQ to adapt for that.

But! It can also adapt to you always boosting the highs and lows according to F-M and tell you "that sounds normal". It can also tell you that if your friend puts on headphones and tells you "this sounds better" that it indeed does sound better. Or if you just paid 3000$ :)
So, in theory, the brain flattens out the sound? If so, fair enough, but what concerns my "professional" headphones, it lacks sub badly, and has a bad high frequency boost. By the time my brain adjusts, I'm afraid I experience hearing loss. It's a trade off with equalization artifacts.

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normen
Posts: 3431
Joined: 16 Jan 2015

20 Apr 2018

RobC wrote:
20 Apr 2018
So, in theory, the brain flattens out the sound? If so, fair enough, but what concerns my "professional" headphones, it lacks sub badly, and has a bad high frequency boost. By the time my brain adjusts, I'm afraid I experience hearing loss. It's a trade off with equalization artifacts.
Yes, of course any new headphones inherent curve will look slightly different and thus feel "unusual" and you could adapt for that but it's easy to adapt in the head by listening to a few tracks on that system/headphone. The idea behind that is that any step of EQing or anything is a step that changes the sound in many more ways than intended so I'd try to avoid that if at all possible.

RobC
Posts: 1832
Joined: 10 Mar 2018

20 Apr 2018

normen wrote:
20 Apr 2018
RobC wrote:
20 Apr 2018
So, in theory, the brain flattens out the sound? If so, fair enough, but what concerns my "professional" headphones, it lacks sub badly, and has a bad high frequency boost. By the time my brain adjusts, I'm afraid I experience hearing loss. It's a trade off with equalization artifacts.
Yes, of course any new headphones inherent curve will look slightly different and thus feel "unusual" and you could adapt for that but it's easy to adapt in the head by listening to a few tracks on that system/headphone. The idea behind that is that any step of EQing or anything is a step that changes the sound in many more ways than intended so I'd try to avoid that if at all possible.
Take a look at the amount of adjustment I needed to make, until I heard a flat sound with these headphones - this is the inverted curve, though to show approximately how these headphones are calibrated by default:
2017-10-19.png
2017-10-19.png (12.45 KiB) Viewed 828 times
See, compared to a flat response where I barely would need to make adjustments, the bass is practically ripped off, the treble is crazily boosted. I have no idea what they were thinking when calibrating these headphones, but I saw reviews complaining likewise.

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normen
Posts: 3431
Joined: 16 Jan 2015

20 Apr 2018

RobC wrote:
20 Apr 2018
Take a look at the amount of adjustment I needed to make, until I heard a flat sound with these headphones - this is the inverted curve, though to show approximately how these headphones are calibrated by default:

2017-10-19.png

See, compared to a flat response where I barely would need to make adjustments, the bass is practically ripped off, the treble is crazily boosted. I have no idea what they were thinking when calibrating these headphones, but I saw reviews complaining likewise.
I don't see how this is relevant to this thread?

RobC
Posts: 1832
Joined: 10 Mar 2018

20 Apr 2018

normen wrote:
20 Apr 2018
RobC wrote:
20 Apr 2018
Take a look at the amount of adjustment I needed to make, until I heard a flat sound with these headphones - this is the inverted curve, though to show approximately how these headphones are calibrated by default:

2017-10-19.png

See, compared to a flat response where I barely would need to make adjustments, the bass is practically ripped off, the treble is crazily boosted. I have no idea what they were thinking when calibrating these headphones, but I saw reviews complaining likewise.
I don't see how this is relevant to this thread?
Well, it was questioned why I do some calibration to my headphones, and why I suggested doing so. For my hearing, my headphones aren't flat sounding at all and they definitely needed adjustment because of that. It sounds almost like you would turn the bass down, leave the mids, and turn the treble up.

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