i suck on mixing and mastering

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aminionarris
Posts: 14
Joined: 13 Apr 2018
Location: Rostock Germany

18 Apr 2018

Hi there,

i hope im on the right topic.

i have an big problem on mixing and mastering my tracks. I want to do stuff like afx, tom cowbell and coldstorage with my own touch. But everytime i suck at bass. Higher sounds i would say are clear but when i try to get a depth bass everytime i loose. I try to use compressor and sidechains but nothing happened. I read tutorials but i think 1 question and 4000 different answers :). Im an autodeduct and my english is not the best. Its ok to offer som food or speak about weather, but if the tutorials go very technical im lost often. Then i translate with google and lost allready.

So, what im looking for. Do exist an good excample for Mastering Electronic Music as rsn file? So i can see what happen. Or much better, can i give someone one of my rsnfiles and he can master it a bit to show me what im doin wrong?

15 years in mastering / mixing Pain. Help ...

For example two of my songs.

Song nr 1 is ok but song 2 suck. I tried to copy what im doin on Track 1 (compressor siedechain ...) on track 2. But no bass and less quiet

Track 1
good bass (i would say) and loud enough.
Track 2
where ist that BASS ahhhh and why its so quiet although the master level gets red

Pls help me :).

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selig
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18 Apr 2018

"Master level get's red" means absolutely nothing. You may want to better understand levels, and meters better. Levels meaning knowing what levels you are outputting rather than what color the meter is, and meters meaning knowing what different meters tell you (peak meters, vs VU or RMS meters, vs LUFS metering, etc).

Mastering is an art, and the skills are not acquired overnight. Mixing is another (different) art. Composing and arranging is yet another, as is performing. Lots to learn about any one of these subjects, let alone trying to master (!) all of them at once! Take your time, start small, learn the basics and start at the beginning (programming/playing/arranging music). Start with creating great drums, then bass, then melodies/FX/breaks etc, then build arrangements, then move to mixing, then to mastering (or let someone else master for you if at all possible!). You can tackle all at once, but seriously make sure your basics are there with your music first - doesn't make sense to mix a song that's not built/arranged well, as it doesn't make sense to master a song that isn't mixed well. Or to put it another way, the better the tracks, the easier the mix. The better the mix, the easier to master, etc.

All to say, learn to build a strong foundation, then build on that foundation!

If you want more specific feedback, post a work in progress and a reference track that is your 'target'. Plenty of folks here will be happy to give feedback. Even better to post a song file and get folks to show you want they would do to it to make it match your target better! Lots of talent here, and a willingness to share as well. :)
Selig Audio, LLC

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Adabler
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18 Apr 2018

aminionarris wrote:
18 Apr 2018
where ist that BASS ahhhh and why its so quiet although the master level gets red
I am not able to give you any expert advice on how to mix and master music as I am learning myself, but I wonder, what is your monitor or headphone situation? From where I sit, the lower end in the second track seems louder?
:reason: 12, Win10

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aminionarris
Posts: 14
Joined: 13 Apr 2018
Location: Rostock Germany

18 Apr 2018

selig wrote:
18 Apr 2018
"Master level get's red" means absolutely nothing. You may want to better understand levels, and meters better. Levels meaning knowing what levels you are outputting rather than what color the meter is, and meters meaning knowing what different meters tell you (peak meters, vs VU or RMS meters, vs LUFS metering, etc).

Mastering is an art, and the skills are not acquired overnight. Mixing is another (different) art. Composing and arranging is yet another, as is performing. Lots to learn about any one of these subjects, let alone trying to master (!) all of them at once! Take your time, start small, learn the basics and start at the beginning (programming/playing/arranging music). Start with creating great drums, then bass, then melodies/FX/breaks etc, then build arrangements, then move to mixing, then to mastering (or let someone else master for you if at all possible!). You can tackle all at once, but seriously make sure your basics are there with your music first - doesn't make sense to mix a song that's not built/arranged well, as it doesn't make sense to master a song that isn't mixed well. Or to put it another way, the better the tracks, the easier the mix. The better the mix, the easier to master, etc.

All to say, learn to build a strong foundation, then build on that foundation!

If you want more specific feedback, post a work in progress and a reference track that is your 'target'. Plenty of folks here will be happy to give feedback. Even better to post a song file and get folks to show you want they would do to it to make it match your target better! Lots of talent here, and a willingness to share as well. :)
Thanks for the fast answer. So start at beginning.

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aminionarris
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Location: Rostock Germany

18 Apr 2018

Adabler wrote:
18 Apr 2018
aminionarris wrote:
18 Apr 2018
where ist that BASS ahhhh and why its so quiet although the master level gets red
I am not able to give you any expert advice on how to mix and master music as I am learning myself, but I wonder, what is your monitor or headphone situation? From where I sit, the lower end in the second track seems louder?
Hi, thank you too for the fast answer. I cant use monitor cause of sitting in livingroom ^^. If i master i use Headphones: "bd dt 770 Pro" and try to listen songs on different system (hifi at home, mp3 player and car hifi). The lower end is louder? I think cause of more lower sounds are on this part. On first part i got more melodic at the end they are less. Try to start new learning with help here :).

Greetings Martin

RobC
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19 Apr 2018

I'd suggest equalizing your headphones to flat response, first. That with the sine wave method, where you listen to sine wave tones at different frequencies, and equalize one at a time, so they sound equally loud.
Then I would equalize at least the prominent sounds (such as kick and bass as you say), individually, so they likewise have a balanced frequency spectrum (high/low pass filter to taste afterwards). Maybe soft clip extreme peaks/spikes in them. Then mix to taste.
Also, compare Kick and Bass - try inverting one of them. If your sub starts lacking, you don't need to invert. If it gets more powerful, then some of the sub frequencies canceled each other out. It's a good idea to offset them a bit - like the bass with ReGroove. Let it play back a bit after the kick, so it doesn't weaken the click of it. Do it to taste.
Personally, I don't like side-chain compression. I rather automate the mix fader of those sounds, which happen to wash it away. Say, long washy pads, windy noise effects, etc. That's not difficult, just draw an inverted sawtooth shape where you set the lowest point to taste according to your kick, I presume, and set its length (when it gets back to the set audio level) likewise. Then take your automation clip and offset it if needed, so it sounds perfectly right with clicks and whatnot.
Mixing is tricky. If you want everything to be equally loud, then set the levels in comparison to 1 sound. Never play the two together, cause it will fool your ears. Just do an A/B listening while setting the level.
Or, if you mix something for a chorus for example, then set the level of the least important sound, then start setting the levels of the more and more important sounds, mixing them one by one from zero, until you finish mixing the most important ones - probably bass, kick and vocals. (For example: I would start mixing with pad, lead, hat, snare, bass, kick and finally vocals ~ or maybe the bass before snare and hat - you can always make adjustments). Don't forget that you get used to sounds playing, so if you start with the most important ones, you might end up mixing them a bit 'to the background'.

When it comes to mastering, decide who you make music for? PhD guys, nerds and geeks who care more about technical details and terms? Record labels, that who are most interested in advertising and selling - which risked sound quality and created the loudness war? Fellow musicians to whom you're a competition, like it or not? ...or maybe the listener, that can very much set the audio level themselves and is looking for pleasant sounding, good music?
No need to make it overly loud, nor risk clipping just for loudness. Clipping or limiting extreme peaks and spikes is fine.
When doing a final mastering, I'd suggest going to the busiest part of the music and balancing the audio spectrum according to that with equalization, until you don't hear that one frequency is louder than the other. So, no notch sounds, no resonant sounds, just perfect. You can even try doing this by reversing the part, so transients don't fool your ears.
Once your tone is improved, it's up to you how much, and why you want to limit the dynamics.
Don't forget that a master equalization is going to affect the whole sound obviously. That's why I prefer to equalize everything individually.

Trust me, creating a good sound can be learned quicker than you think.
Never forget, the road to achieving a professional sound is a lot of fun! You will enjoy it.

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normen
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19 Apr 2018

^-- The thing with all of the above is that if you don't know why you would want to take any of these steps then the information is completely useless and will lead to the initial results of OP.

If you follow the steps taken to produce the best album in the world and apply them to your track you will get...... (suspense rising) ...garbage :)

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nickb523
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19 Apr 2018

I've owned various models of monitors, nice hardware compressors and eq's but i've come to the conclusion that none of it really matters.

If you can get to know you listening environment intimately (and i mean intimately) you will be able to achieve what you want, whether it's on a set of $15 computer speakers or the very best monitoring system money can buy.

Take your headphones and spend serious time with them. I'm talking every style of music, every day, for hours at a time. Eventually, something should click and you'll be able to dial in settings that work and translate well despite a limited setup.

As Selig said "it's an art" and it really is. It takes time to figure out what is right and wrong (and even then that is open to interpretation). Even when you think you've nailed it you will still have 'off days'.

The tools help, but they are not the be all end all. :)

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Kalm
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19 Apr 2018

I agree with Selig, start with one thing first. Understand your difference in levels. Everyone here is pointing at your listening environment which is the truest statement in life but, thats something I can't really address unless posted. If you cant work on your listening environment first or you're using a good pair of headphones then proceed to the second paragraph.

The number one issue I hear people having trouble with when it comes to levels is that they want to use processors and effects to fix the simple problems and basic aspects of a mix. Understand that the biggest change that can happen to your music besides a listening environment is differences in levels. That will change both dynamics and frequency response of your sounds relative to each other. Learn to balance them first. Turn down and listen to 2 or 3 tracks similar to your mix. Then before touching any eq or compression or anything, just try to level match as best as possible your sounds to theirs. Don't worry about brightness, or color, or transient control and that good stuff yet. Levels is 50% of your mix.

Second, get a system to setting your levels every time you open your mix. Remember the changes you make in the beginning will effect everything down the chain as you mix. Find yourself a workflow when you open a mix and perform leveling that way every time you start a song, you know how to get expected results, not just randomly attacking each problem as they present themselves. One such things people do is keep permanent monitoring levels. This is to alleviate hearing changes in frequency response and dynamics from constantly turning up your monitoring environment. When you have a monitoring reference level, youll always know when something is too loud or too quiet because you can't just simply touch the master output knob of your interface and crank things up. Leave it alone, no touchy.
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Marco Raaphorst
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19 Apr 2018

Interesting you mentioning afx. Aphex is a wild guy. Most of his stuff is mixed in a wild way. Not smooth, not perfect balanced stuff, even hummy and noisy sometimes. Aphex is not a perfectionist. He gets nervous when it takes too much time I guess. It's raw.

I love mixing in a raw way too. Not smoothing things out 'till they suck.

RobC
Posts: 1848
Joined: 10 Mar 2018

19 Apr 2018

normen wrote:
19 Apr 2018
^-- The thing with all of the above is that if you don't know why you would want to take any of these steps then the information is completely useless and will lead to the initial results of OP.

If you follow the steps taken to produce the best album in the world and apply them to your track you will get...... (suspense rising) ...garbage :)
I'm confused now, what's wrong?

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nickb523
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19 Apr 2018

RobC wrote:
19 Apr 2018
normen wrote:
19 Apr 2018
^-- The thing with all of the above is that if you don't know why you would want to take any of these steps then the information is completely useless and will lead to the initial results of OP.

If you follow the steps taken to produce the best album in the world and apply them to your track you will get...... (suspense rising) ...garbage :)
I'm confused now, what's wrong?
You'll know in 10 mins... i've mastered "Kampf der Schetterlinge" from the youtube vid with stock tools and i will upload the .reason file shortly. That should act as a decent guide. :)

RobC
Posts: 1848
Joined: 10 Mar 2018

19 Apr 2018

nickb523 wrote:
19 Apr 2018
RobC wrote:
19 Apr 2018


I'm confused now, what's wrong?
You'll know in 10 mins... i've mastered "Kampf der Schetterlinge" from the youtube vid with stock tools and i will upload the .reason file shortly. That should act as a decent guide. :)
I meant, what was wrong with what I said?
I guess one day I need to make a master with my current methods, and then people can decide how it sounds.

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normen
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19 Apr 2018

RobC wrote:
19 Apr 2018
I'm confused now, what's wrong?
You seem to be, where did I say something was wrong? :)

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nickb523
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19 Apr 2018

RobC wrote:
19 Apr 2018
nickb523 wrote:
19 Apr 2018


You'll know in 10 mins... i've mastered "Kampf der Schetterlinge" from the youtube vid with stock tools and i will upload the .reason file shortly. That should act as a decent guide. :)
I meant, what was wrong with what I said?
I guess one day I need to make a master with my current methods, and then people can decide how it sounds.
quoted wrong person on the trigger finger man.. i thought you were the OP. :)

RobC
Posts: 1848
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19 Apr 2018

normen wrote:
19 Apr 2018
RobC wrote:
19 Apr 2018
I'm confused now, what's wrong?
You seem to be, where did I say something was wrong? :)
Well, did you mean that others might not know when and why to use what I said, or that everything I said won't work? xD

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nickb523
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19 Apr 2018

aminionarris wrote:
18 Apr 2018
Hi there,

i hope im on the right topic.

i have an big problem on mixing and mastering my tracks. I want to do stuff like afx, tom cowbell and coldstorage with my own touch. But everytime i suck at bass. Higher sounds i would say are clear but when i try to get a depth bass everytime i loose. I try to use compressor and sidechains but nothing happened. I read tutorials but i think 1 question and 4000 different answers :). Im an autodeduct and my english is not the best. Its ok to offer som food or speak about weather, but if the tutorials go very technical im lost often. Then i translate with google and lost allready.

So, what im looking for. Do exist an good excample for Mastering Electronic Music as rsn file? So i can see what happen. Or much better, can i give someone one of my rsnfiles and he can master it a bit to show me what im doin wrong?

15 years in mastering / mixing Pain. Help ...

For example two of my songs.

Song nr 1 is ok but song 2 suck. I tried to copy what im doin on Track 1 (compressor siedechain ...) on track 2. But no bass and less quiet

Track 1
good bass (i would say) and loud enough.
Track 2
where ist that BASS ahhhh and why its so quiet although the master level gets red

Pls help me :).

Alihoopa - https://allihoopa.com/s/1wGaV4Jl

.reason file - https://www.skpsounds.com/stuff/forumidmthing.zip

Hope this helps you identify the issues. ;)

Nick :)
Last edited by nickb523 on 19 Apr 2018, edited 1 time in total.

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aeox
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19 Apr 2018

nickb523 wrote:
19 Apr 2018
Alihoopa - https://allihoopa.com/s/1wGaV4Jl

.reason file - https://www.skpsounds.com/stuff/forumidmthing.zip

Hope this helps the OP identify the issues. ;)

Nick :)
There is no amount of "mastering" that can fix that. The mix, arrangement and frequency priority needs to be re-thought out in my opinion.

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nickb523
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19 Apr 2018

aeox wrote:
19 Apr 2018

There is no amount of "mastering" that can fix that. The mix, arrangement and frequency priority needs to be re-thought out in my opinion.


I agree. But i'm trying to help out with a practical example.

RobC
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19 Apr 2018

(I only read, though. Didn't check audio just yet. Description was informative, though.)

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aeox
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19 Apr 2018

nickb523 wrote:
19 Apr 2018
aeox wrote:
19 Apr 2018

There is no amount of "mastering" that can fix that. The mix, arrangement and frequency priority needs to be re-thought out in my opinion.


I agree. But i'm trying to help out with a practical example.
Okay :) Apologies if they came off as rude!

jimmyklane
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19 Apr 2018

RobC wrote:
19 Apr 2018
I'd suggest equalizing your headphones to flat response, first. That with the sine wave method, where you listen to sine wave tones at different frequencies, and equalize one at a time, so they sound equally loud
I’m sorry, but I completely disagree. They should NOT sound at the same perceived volume because our ears are not balanced. See the fletcher-munson curves for details. Even when a monitoring system is calibrated to 83dB SPL sine waves will sound louder as the spectrum gets higher....to a point, and then they get softer.

SUGGESTION TO OP: Try to standardize your listening levels to a system like k-12 or k-14. In addition, if your music falls ROUGHLY into the same frequency plot as pink noise you will probably be on the right track. In all music, but especially EDM, the speakers actually do the work of providing bass extension. The bass will have more energy and take up more of the mix, but if it’s too hot you will get mushy, flabby bass and compressors that fall flat because they are reacting to mostly the bass. Because you are on headphones you may have trouble until you know them extremely well. I’ve had the same pair of cans for over 10 years for example.

If you give me a reason file, I will mix and master it for you for free. You will get a sense of what’s right for THAT SONG. Each and every song is a little different, and even when mastering an album you’ll need different settings and equipment for each track. You simply cannot standardize music.

I have not checked out your songs yet, but I’ll do so when I’m back to my studio and can listen on the monitors. I’ll give some concrete help then.
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RobC
Posts: 1848
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19 Apr 2018

jimmyklane wrote:
19 Apr 2018
RobC wrote:
19 Apr 2018
I'd suggest equalizing your headphones to flat response, first. That with the sine wave method, where you listen to sine wave tones at different frequencies, and equalize one at a time, so they sound equally loud
I’m sorry, but I completely disagree. They should NOT sound at the same perceived volume because our ears are not balanced. See the fletcher-munson curves for details. Even when a monitoring system is calibrated to 83dB SPL sine waves will sound louder as the spectrum gets higher....to a point, and then they get softer.
It's true that our ears react differently at different audio levels, but if we listen to everything at a target audio level (matching the given sound's loudness to it), then why is it that much of a problem if it's balanced to our hearing. Or why can we find people suggesting doing that? Why did it work for me?

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aminionarris
Posts: 14
Joined: 13 Apr 2018
Location: Rostock Germany

19 Apr 2018

Hi guys,

wow, thanks for all that response. Didnt thought for so much impressions.

@nickb523 now im allready confused ^^, try to understand what you doo. Never used the mix-section before (only for sidechain), worked like older versions with eq under every instrument.

@RobC im complete overhelmed with all the technical/physical informations, need some time to work thru your Post ^^

@jimmyklane thanks a lot, that would be awsome, 1 track for example would be great

@normen genau so ist es, ich bastel seid 15 Jahren im Kämmerlein umher, leider fehlt mir wohl wirklich das knowhow. Ich verlasse mich komplett aufs Gehör ohne zu wissen an was ich da gerade drehe ;).

So at last many Thanks of you Guys. Im little affraid to upload my rsn fiile (feel on level like a little kid who hammer on his piano).

enclose my file for "Kampf der Schmetterlinge":

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ikhpo5e6g2hib ... eason?dl=1

(i hope it works via dropbox)

Greetings Martin

RobC
Posts: 1848
Joined: 10 Mar 2018

19 Apr 2018

aminionarris wrote:
19 Apr 2018
Hi guys,

wow, thanks for all that response. Didnt thought for so much impressions.

@nickb523 now im allready confused ^^, try to understand what you doo. Never used the mix-section before (only for sidechain), worked like older versions with eq under every instrument.

@RobC im complete overhelmed with all the technical/physical informations, need some time to work thru your Post ^^

@jimmyklane thanks a lot, that would be awsome, 1 track for example would be great

@normen genau so ist es, ich bastel seid 15 Jahren im Kämmerlein umher, leider fehlt mir wohl wirklich das knowhow. Ich verlasse mich komplett aufs Gehör ohne zu wissen an was ich da gerade drehe ;).

So at last many Thanks of you Guys. Im little affraid to upload my rsn fiile (feel on level like a little kid who hammer on his piano).

enclose my file for "Kampf der Schmetterlinge":

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ikhpo5e6g2hib ... eason?dl=1

(i hope it works via dropbox)

Greetings Martin
I could be wrong, so stick to what others say for now.

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