The Stereo Fatigue Problem (Professional help needed)

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RobC
Posts: 1833
Joined: 10 Mar 2018

14 Apr 2018

(...cause it's driving me crazy!)
Last time I had a question, and figured it out by typing it out - the stupidity of hyperactive tendencies...

There's another problem:
When a sound is just panned without any additional stereo effects, on its own, it certainly can give that "slightly-deaf-on-one-side" feel - kind of fatiguing. When the sound is heard on its own, nevertheless. Happens especially with anything close to hard panning.
What about when there are other sounds playing in the stereo field, though? Do they ease the fatiguing, or does the hard panned sound need some sort of stereo flavor in both channels (say for a simple example, a bit of reverb)?

The thing is, I'm hesitant to add any effects, I'd rather create the arrangement in a way, so that there's a little something going on in both channels. After all, an added stereo effect would reduce the stereo field, the stereo "dynamics".

Of course, the music should be enjoyable, but is that hard panning fatigue really a thing that bothers everyone? I started caring about it after reading an article (I got successfully manipulated xD).

So, what to do?

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normen
Posts: 3431
Joined: 16 Jan 2015

14 Apr 2018

It's mainly the fact that there is absolutely NOTHING on the other ear. Just adding some white noise at a certain level will remedy that "sucking your ear wax out" feeling, it doesn't even have to be really perceivable. Thats also why when you cut audio you never have a gap with absolute zero, you cut out some noise floor from another part and insert that as silence.

TL;DR: Just have SOME sound on the other ear.

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aeox
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Posts: 3222
Joined: 23 Feb 2017
Location: Oregon

14 Apr 2018

RobC wrote:
14 Apr 2018
(...cause it's driving me crazy!)
Last time I had a question, and figured it out by typing it out - the stupidity of hyperactive tendencies...
This seriously happens to me more often than I'd like to admit.
RobC wrote:
14 Apr 2018
There's another problem:
When a sound is just panned without any additional stereo effects, on its own, it certainly can give that "slightly-deaf-on-one-side" feel - kind of fatiguing. When the sound is heard on its own, nevertheless. Happens especially with anything close to hard panning.
What about when there are other sounds playing in the stereo field, though? Do they ease the fatiguing, or does the hard panned sound need some sort of stereo flavor in both channels (say for a simple example, a bit of reverb)?

The thing is, I'm hesitant to add any effects, I'd rather create the arrangement in a way, so that there's a little something going on in both channels. After all, an added stereo effect would reduce the stereo field, the stereo "dynamics".

Of course, the music should be enjoyable, but is that hard panning fatigue really a thing that bothers everyone? I started caring about it after reading an article (I got successfully manipulated xD).

So, what to do?
Hard panning can be very fatiguing to my ears. Especially when there isn't something to balance the sound on the other side, so that it doesn't actually sound like there is something slammed to either side of the field.

FWIW, I rarely hard pan anything to the left or right. There are some exceptions of course. An exception would be something equivalent to two separate guitar takes panned hard left and right. I do the same thing but with synths.

When I want something to keep it's "mono" intact, I'll add some stereo chorus and/or stereo ping pong delay for width. After all, just like volume dynamics, it's all about contrast!
Last edited by aeox on 14 Apr 2018, edited 1 time in total.

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Chizmata
Posts: 918
Joined: 21 Dec 2015
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14 Apr 2018

i like to pan something on a similar frequency but with different timbre or rhythm exactly on the opposite position of the stereo field.

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aeox
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Posts: 3222
Joined: 23 Feb 2017
Location: Oregon

14 Apr 2018

You can get away with a lot of cool stuff. Keeping in mind that most people are going to be listening to the track in mono, so the meat of the track should be very mono. A common tip around here that I've found useful is to frequently check your mix in mono to see how any panning/width adjustments sound in mono.

I'm sure you know most of this stuff anyway, just my 2c.

RobC
Posts: 1833
Joined: 10 Mar 2018

14 Apr 2018

normen wrote:
14 Apr 2018
It's mainly the fact that there is absolutely NOTHING on the other ear. Just adding some white noise at a certain level will remedy that "sucking your ear wax out" feeling, it doesn't even have to be really perceivable. Thats also why when you cut audio you never have a gap with absolute zero, you cut out some noise floor from another part and insert that as silence.

TL;DR: Just have SOME sound on the other ear.
I was thinking of when I don't want to avoid soloing a sound, I'll create a HAAS "reverb" (with some sum/differences work) and add to taste. It would also be pretty useful to add some repeater effects when playing around with the delay's feedback.

I never really considered the dead silence part, so that's interesting - though dithering might or might not be sufficient for that.
Thank you!

avasopht
Competition Winner
Posts: 3932
Joined: 16 Jan 2015

14 Apr 2018

RobC wrote:
14 Apr 2018
I was thinking of when I don't want to avoid soloing a sound, I'll create a HAAS "reverb" (with some sum/differences work) and add to taste. It would also be pretty useful to add some repeater effects when playing around with the delay's feedback.

I never really considered the dead silence part, so that's interesting - though dithering might or might not be sufficient for that.
Thank you!
You might find this Haas panner combinator a good starting point.

RobC
Posts: 1833
Joined: 10 Mar 2018

14 Apr 2018

aeox wrote:
14 Apr 2018
RobC wrote:
14 Apr 2018
(...cause it's driving me crazy!)
Last time I had a question, and figured it out by typing it out - the stupidity of hyperactive tendencies...
This seriously happens to me more often than I'd like to admit.
RobC wrote:
14 Apr 2018
There's another problem:
When a sound is just panned without any additional stereo effects, on its own, it certainly can give that "slightly-deaf-on-one-side" feel - kind of fatiguing. When the sound is heard on its own, nevertheless. Happens especially with anything close to hard panning.
What about when there are other sounds playing in the stereo field, though? Do they ease the fatiguing, or does the hard panned sound need some sort of stereo flavor in both channels (say for a simple example, a bit of reverb)?

The thing is, I'm hesitant to add any effects, I'd rather create the arrangement in a way, so that there's a little something going on in both channels. After all, an added stereo effect would reduce the stereo field, the stereo "dynamics".

Of course, the music should be enjoyable, but is that hard panning fatigue really a thing that bothers everyone? I started caring about it after reading an article (I got successfully manipulated xD).

So, what to do?
Hard panning can be very fatiguing to my ears. Especially when there isn't something to balance the sound on the other side, so that it doesn't actually sound like there is something slammed to either side of the field.

FWIW, I rarely hard pan anything to the left or right. There are some exceptions of course. An exception would be something equivalent to two separate guitar takes panned hard left and right. I do the same thing but with synths.

When I want something to keep it's "mono" intact, I'll add some stereo chorus and/or stereo ping pong delay for width. After all, just like volume dynamics, it's all about contrast!
Welcome to the nutty club, hehe.
Honestly, there will always be something going on in both channels in my case, I was rather worried about dry panning.
Now, for mono, I will provide a very different, mono mix. - I'm no star with song releases, so I can do that for a while.

I also do the mono check, but not just with a button, but also a knob, that crossfades from stereo to mono (you can hear any crosstalk situation). The one channel phase inverted surround sounds create an interesting effect: while the frontally panned parts just go to the center as you turn the stereo image towards mono, the surround ones don't just cancel out and get quieter, but they first go completely to the side (remaining very noticeable) and when the inverted channel totally canceled out, only then it fades towards mono. Thus creating a superb headphone experience, and "naturally" mixes a wide image for any stereo speaker setup. Clearly, more easily audible sounds can only be risked for the artificial surround channel.

RobC
Posts: 1833
Joined: 10 Mar 2018

14 Apr 2018

Chizmata wrote:
14 Apr 2018
i like to pan something on a similar frequency but with different timbre or rhythm exactly on the opposite position of the stereo field.
That's definitely something I will consider, too during arrangement!

RobC
Posts: 1833
Joined: 10 Mar 2018

14 Apr 2018

avasopht wrote:
14 Apr 2018
RobC wrote:
14 Apr 2018
I was thinking of when I don't want to avoid soloing a sound, I'll create a HAAS "reverb" (with some sum/differences work) and add to taste. It would also be pretty useful to add some repeater effects when playing around with the delay's feedback.

I never really considered the dead silence part, so that's interesting - though dithering might or might not be sufficient for that.
Thank you!
You might find this Haas panner combinator a good starting point.
Looks pretty complex at first glance, gonna dig more deeply into it, thank you!

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Loque
Moderator
Posts: 11175
Joined: 28 Dec 2015

14 Apr 2018

I never liked hard panned is that are only audible on one side. But if i do hard panning, i often create a short reverb on that side and a longer on the other with predelay to get a kind of slap back effekt. Or a pan delay that starts on the other side. So i mostly go for the impression of a far sound that echos from the opposite direction.
Reason12, Win10

RobC
Posts: 1833
Joined: 10 Mar 2018

14 Apr 2018

Loque wrote:
14 Apr 2018
I never liked hard panned is that are only audible on one side. But if i do hard panning, i often create a short reverb on that side and a longer on the other with predelay to get a kind of slap back effekt. Or a pan delay that starts on the other side. So i mostly go for the impression of a far sound that echos from the opposite direction.
Personally, I think heavily outside the box at the moment, and break every rule (including panning), but I want to do so very carefully, so my experiment doesn't go wrong, hehe.

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normen
Posts: 3431
Joined: 16 Jan 2015

14 Apr 2018

Theres a whole school of mixing where you ONLY pan either har left, hard right or center. But dare I say with the most respect to the mixing skill of those people that they also tend to be on the esoteric side with special gear they can't live without for unmeasurable reasons etc.

It surely solves some phasing and other issues but imo it's wasted opportunity, especially today as people are listening more and more on headphones and you can actually expect them to "sit in the proper listening position".

RobC
Posts: 1833
Joined: 10 Mar 2018

14 Apr 2018

normen wrote:
14 Apr 2018
Theres a whole school of mixing where you ONLY pan either har left, hard right or center. But dare I say with the most respect to the mixing skill of those people that they also tend to be on the esoteric side with special gear they can't live without for unmeasurable reasons etc.

It surely solves some phasing and other issues but imo it's wasted opportunity, especially today as people are listening more and more on headphones and you can actually expect them to "sit in the proper listening position".
Okay, I'm not simplifying/limiting to such level either. xD But like I said, I was concerned about simply panning without stereo effects.
Headphones are what I aim towards mostly, hence the panning law watches not to put additional pressure on the ear, whichever side it turns towards.
Now, I hope nobody believed that I would put a center sound completely out of phase (well, for a side/differences-effect I will) - or that I would expect a completely hard panned one to have a surround-like effect with the empty channel inverted, haha. Nope, that one will be for sounds panned 75% to the left, or right ~ the three of us immediately figured that one out yesterday (me, myself, and I xD).

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