Best vocoder for an authentic "singing synth"?

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RobC
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Joined: 10 Mar 2018

10 Apr 2018

Hello, everyone!

Did you miss me?
...
Too bad...

Anyway, is there any better vocoder than Reason's? The FFT mode seems pretty good, but I wouldn't mind some more accurate/smooth sound when I vocode a synth with vocals.
I also tried Grain for similar purpose, but yeah, it's too robotic sounding.

I must say, it's far more listenable than hearing our own voice, haha. I like my synth being the vocalist. Like - nah, love it!

I also noticed some sound worsening at higher sample rates - but it could just be because I simply had 192 kHz sound, while the synth and the vocals were 44100 Hz. I guess sample rates matter a lot with the vocoder in Reason.

I want it as "real" sounding as possible, but with the synthesizer's "voice" - without robotic sound, however ~ so no obvious cheap sounding vocoder. (Nope, Eifel 65 style "Blue" isn't enough.)

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Loque
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10 Apr 2018

Did you tried it in combination with Neptune as voice-synth?
Reason12, Win10

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eusti
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10 Apr 2018

Do you have any examples of what you're trying to achieve?

D.

RobC
Posts: 1833
Joined: 10 Mar 2018

10 Apr 2018

Loque wrote:
10 Apr 2018
Did you tried it in combination with Neptune as voice-synth?
No, but that's not what I'm looking for (I think) - probably might try that, too though. Problem is with tone, which could be more accurate. Didn't try it with 192 kHz files - who knows, they could be more accurate, considering waveform detail.

RobC
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Joined: 10 Mar 2018

10 Apr 2018

eusti wrote:
10 Apr 2018
Do you have any examples of what you're trying to achieve?

D.



So, the synth carrier should "follow" the voice more accurately than this. Sadly, it also kind of kills transients a bit as is.

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teddymcw
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10 Apr 2018

I think using Parsec as a vocoder can sound great.

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Loque
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10 Apr 2018

RobC wrote:
10 Apr 2018
eusti wrote:
10 Apr 2018
Do you have any examples of what you're trying to achieve?

D.



So, the synth carrier should "follow" the voice more accurately than this. Sadly, it also kind of kills transients a bit as is.
Bounce vocals to midi, correct the notes, play it in the synth. Use a transient Shaper before or after the vocoder. Make the synth snappy.
Reason12, Win10

RobC
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Joined: 10 Mar 2018

11 Apr 2018

teddymcw wrote:
10 Apr 2018
I think using Parsec as a vocoder can sound great.
Does it beat the detail of Reason's and other vocoders on the market?

RobC
Posts: 1833
Joined: 10 Mar 2018

11 Apr 2018

Loque wrote:
10 Apr 2018
RobC wrote:
10 Apr 2018





So, the synth carrier should "follow" the voice more accurately than this. Sadly, it also kind of kills transients a bit as is.
Bounce vocals to midi, correct the notes, play it in the synth. Use a transient Shaper before or after the vocoder. Make the synth snappy.
I expressed it wrongly, sorry. Melody isn't really an issue, but it's a better detail that I'd like - if possible - with less smearing and other artifacts. I want the vocoder to mimic the voice as perfectly as possible (within the range of the given synthesizer voice - meaning harmonics and such ~ like clearly, I wouldn't expect a sine wave to have as much details, as a noise for example).

Edit: the example already contained added transients before and after. Though this was limited, too for the silly loudness war back then. xD

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O1B
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Joined: 26 Jan 2015

11 Apr 2018

... nice, clean reverberated sample.

Watch the waves on the Minilogue It may guide you in your Reason Synth settings.

Vocoder256. EHX. Starts at 7:14..

RobC
Posts: 1833
Joined: 10 Mar 2018

11 Apr 2018

O1B wrote:
11 Apr 2018
... nice, clean reverberated sample.

Watch the waves on the Minilogue It may guide you in your Reason Synth settings.

Vocoder256. EHX. Starts at 7:14..
I need crystal clean, haha!

Well, I might need to make a smoother, less edgy carrier - probably could try replacing / mixing some high frequencies with noise.

That vocoder also gave me an idea. Since earlier I was searching for Linear Phase, FIR, square shaped band splitting, which has a really accurate, clean isolation capability (then again, not so clean due to ringing and chirping - still better than IIR); And an envelope follower, I could try building a vocoder myself in Reason.

Starting out from 20 Hz, going 10 octaves until about 20 kHz, having 12 notes per octave - I'd need to make 120 splits, so at least every note has its own band. Make that less, since for vocals, I cut at least below 80 Hz and above 15 kHz.
Meh, I doubt that much would sound as accurate as Reason's vocoder's 512 FFT bands.
That, and 120 bands would ring like crazy, so after each band, I'd also need to gate the signal, to filter such artifacts out (great for general noise filtering, too).
Using that live? Haha, hell no. Would need 120 Spectrum Filters, 120 Envelope followers, 120 Gates (unless the envelope follower might take care of that to begin with - oh, right!).
Okay, enough of my crazy theory. No need to start with 120.

I could also just try googling a FIR vocoder. xD

RobC
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Joined: 10 Mar 2018

11 Apr 2018

How stupid can I be?! The FFT mode does work in phase! xD Okay, the question is rather, if there's any better vocoder.

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EnochLight
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11 Apr 2018

RobC wrote:
11 Apr 2018
teddymcw wrote:
10 Apr 2018
I think using Parsec as a vocoder can sound great.
Does it beat the detail of Reason's and other vocoders on the market?
Yes.
Win 10 | Ableton Live 11 Suite |  Reason 12 | i7 3770k @ 3.5 Ghz | 16 GB RAM | RME Babyface Pro | Akai MPC Live 2 & Akai Force | Roland System 8, MX1, TB3 | Dreadbox Typhon | Korg Minilogue XD

RobC
Posts: 1833
Joined: 10 Mar 2018

12 Apr 2018

EnochLight wrote:
11 Apr 2018
RobC wrote:
11 Apr 2018


Does it beat the detail of Reason's and other vocoders on the market?
Yes.
Cool! Any info on how many bands it uses max?
Also, linear phase?

I saw some praising the Fruity Vocoder, but all they say is 'they use some advanced technology that sounds better than FFT' yada yada. Should it be IIR, I run away screaming, haha.

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EnochLight
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12 Apr 2018

RobC wrote:
12 Apr 2018
EnochLight wrote:
11 Apr 2018


Yes.
Cool! Any info on how many bands it uses max?
Also, linear phase?

I saw some praising the Fruity Vocoder, but all they say is 'they use some advanced technology that sounds better than FFT' yada yada. Should it be IIR, I run away screaming, haha.
If you’ve got a trial left for Parsec, certainly try it. I find it to sound loads better than Reason’s own BV512. YMMV.

;)
Win 10 | Ableton Live 11 Suite |  Reason 12 | i7 3770k @ 3.5 Ghz | 16 GB RAM | RME Babyface Pro | Akai MPC Live 2 & Akai Force | Roland System 8, MX1, TB3 | Dreadbox Typhon | Korg Minilogue XD

RobC
Posts: 1833
Joined: 10 Mar 2018

12 Apr 2018

EnochLight wrote:
12 Apr 2018
RobC wrote:
12 Apr 2018


Cool! Any info on how many bands it uses max?
Also, linear phase?

I saw some praising the Fruity Vocoder, but all they say is 'they use some advanced technology that sounds better than FFT' yada yada. Should it be IIR, I run away screaming, haha.
If you’ve got a trial left for Parsec, certainly try it. I find it to sound loads better than Reason’s own BV512. YMMV.

;)
I do, but I'm the person that's like "What if my life will depend on using that trial one day?! D8" xD
It's on my list of things to check out, of course.

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EnochLight
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12 Apr 2018

RobC wrote:
12 Apr 2018
I do, but I'm the person that's like "What if my life will depend on using that trial one day?! D8" xD
It's on my list of things to check out, of course.
Yeah, it goes on sale sometimes so paying full price might be something you regret. Here's info on the vocoder from the manual:
Audio-In
  • This lets you modify the Generator signal by modulating it from the Audio Input on the rear panel of Parsec 2; in practice a vocoder effect. The Audio Input signal is analyzed in real-time and the formants are applied to the Generator signal. The formants can also be shifted up and down in frequency before being applied to the Generator signal.
  • Click or click and drag in the display to set the formant pitch shift amount and the lagging of the audio input signal. With the X parameter you set the formant shift amount, i.e. the “bassy vs. chipmunk”-effect. Range: +/-3.5 octaves. When X=50% there is no formant shift. The Y parameter controls the “lagging” of the audio input signal. At low Y values the vocoder effect is instant, and at higher Y values the audio input signal becomes delayed somewhat and also sustains for a longer time. If the Y parameter is rapidly switched to 100%, you can “freeze” a snapshot the current audio input signal and have it modulate the Generator signal infinitely. The modulation will continue for as long as there is a signal present from the Generator.
Win 10 | Ableton Live 11 Suite |  Reason 12 | i7 3770k @ 3.5 Ghz | 16 GB RAM | RME Babyface Pro | Akai MPC Live 2 & Akai Force | Roland System 8, MX1, TB3 | Dreadbox Typhon | Korg Minilogue XD

RobC
Posts: 1833
Joined: 10 Mar 2018

12 Apr 2018

EnochLight wrote:
12 Apr 2018
RobC wrote:
12 Apr 2018
I do, but I'm the person that's like "What if my life will depend on using that trial one day?! D8" xD
It's on my list of things to check out, of course.
Yeah, it goes on sale sometimes so paying full price might be something you regret. Here's info on the vocoder from the manual:
Audio-In
  • This lets you modify the Generator signal by modulating it from the Audio Input on the rear panel of Parsec 2; in practice a vocoder effect. The Audio Input signal is analyzed in real-time and the formants are applied to the Generator signal. The formants can also be shifted up and down in frequency before being applied to the Generator signal.
  • Click or click and drag in the display to set the formant pitch shift amount and the lagging of the audio input signal. With the X parameter you set the formant shift amount, i.e. the “bassy vs. chipmunk”-effect. Range: +/-3.5 octaves. When X=50% there is no formant shift. The Y parameter controls the “lagging” of the audio input signal. At low Y values the vocoder effect is instant, and at higher Y values the audio input signal becomes delayed somewhat and also sustains for a longer time. If the Y parameter is rapidly switched to 100%, you can “freeze” a snapshot the current audio input signal and have it modulate the Generator signal infinitely. The modulation will continue for as long as there is a signal present from the Generator.
Thank you very much for the info!
Could you add your own carrier synth, if you didn't want to use Parsec as the carrier?

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