What should be the target loudness? MASTERING

[RobC]

Some background info:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal-loudness_contour

Assume, you have the perfectly prepared sound and set the loudness/dynamic reduction in the most efficient way possible.

Question is: what would be the most optimal loudness (where we shouldn't go above or under due to the human hearing's different frequency response at different SPL - so that dynamics/frequency levels don't sound too flat, or don't drift away too much)?

[normen]

I absolute SPL terms you have no control over that because the listener has a volume knob

[RobC]

I've been thinking meanwhile, too.
The listener should set the loudness and then equalize. Because no matter what, there is no one size fits all.
So, I'll probably stick to my original theory, partly. I'll set my audio level according to a 2-5 kHz tone (most sensitive in case of human) to a comfortable SPL. Then equalize my audio to sine waves for general music work. And I'll create a technical gray noise, equalized to sine waves, which if everything is true, at my set SPL, and system equalization, should sound completely even and balanced out, frequency level-wise. That type of gray noise should be an ideal reference as to what technically should fit into a finished sound. (With considering taking care of extreme peaks, and the -1 dB TP of course.)

Now, equalizing the system is yet another annoying thing, because IIR EQs will mask the true sound a bit more. FIR ones are not much of an option, tops if I pre-process the given sound with such EQ. Hmm, maybe I'll do both. After all, when I generate sound, IIR is the only efficient, yet more masked quality option.

[normen]

Well I'd dial it down a bit on the technical terms as you sometimes say complete nonsense there - technically

But yeah, it's very much a personal matter but it shouldn't be driven so far that your system makes all productions sound the same. If the subjective quality of different pieces of music varies wildly that speaks for the objective quality of your speaker system.

[selig]

I should point out that the equal loudness curves were determined by having real (average) people listen to tones and set their levels to sound ‘equal’ in loudness to each other. It’s not something that only “golden ears” can perceive.

So if you trust the average listener to know what is equally loud, you should also trust yourself to already know that - it’s human nature!

That is to say, you don’t need a graph to tell you if one frequency is louder than another - the only thing that can accurately do that is your ears/brain because loudness is subjective.

You can spend a lot of time trying to find a fool proof system to determine how loud something should be (you’re not the first to try), or you could realize you already know how to do that.

If I played you two songs, and one was louder than the other, wouldn’t you instantly know which one was louder?

If I played you two tones, and one was louder, wouldn’t you be able to adjust the levels so that they sounded equal to you?

If yes, then you already have the skills to mix - you just need practice. But if instead of practicing mixing, you spend all your time searching for a formula for how loud each frequency should be, you’ll end up at best begin good at creating formulas. If OTOH you spend that same time practicing mixing, you’ll end up being good at mixing. Your call.

Because no matter what, there is no “one size fits all”.





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[Marco Raaphorst]

As a good compromise for Spotify, Apple Music etc I am using:
-15 LUFS integrated with peaks at - 0.5 dB max

[selig]

As a good compromise for Spotify, Apple Music etc I am using:
-15 LUFS integrated with peaks at - 0.5 dB max

Keeping in mind that “integrated” only works well if your song has a fairly consistent level throughout. If you have a very quiet section it can throw off the reading.

I’ve heard others suggest to measure the loudest part of your song and use that setting.

Then again, I simply prefer to mix it how I want it to sound, and accept that every listener has a volume knob and knows how to use it!


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[RobC]

Okay, then I use simple English.
The clever people that finish musics that go on CD and places, say that the music is good if its tone sounds balanced. No too much bass, no too much treble, just fair.
I once tried to achieve what clever people said and it worked. The music that I finished sounded at least as good as what a very-very clever person finished. I want that.
I wanted to find out if it's possible to make it even better than the very-very clever person.

Thanks, Marco Raaphorst for the input!

[Marco Raaphorst]

As a good compromise for Spotify, Apple Music etc I am using:
-15 LUFS integrated with peaks at - 0.5 dB max

Keeping in mind that “integrated” only works well if your song has a fairly consistent level throughout. If you have a very quiet section it can throw off the reading.

I’ve heard others suggest to measure the loudest part of your song and use that setting.

Then again, I simply prefer to mix it how I want it to sound, and accept that every listener has a volume knob and knows how to use it!


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Also keep in mind that Spotify and all streaming services are auto gaining so you don't need to use the volume knob.

I am using a Reference playlist when mixing/mastering.

[selig]

Keeping in mind that “integrated” only works well if your song has a fairly consistent level throughout. If you have a very quiet section it can throw off the reading.

I’ve heard others suggest to measure the loudest part of your song and use that setting.

Then again, I simply prefer to mix it how I want it to sound, and accept that every listener has a volume knob and knows how to use it!


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Also keep in mind that Spotify and all streaming services are auto gaining so you don't need to use the volume knob.

I am using a Reference playlist when mixing/mastering.

Exactly, but they are using a approximate loudness value to set the gain - not everyone perceives loudness the same way, and not every song stays at the same loudness from start to finish.

To be clear, I don't use loudness 'standards' exactly because the streaming services ARE auto-gaining everything!

[Marco Raaphorst]

To be clear, I don't use loudness 'standards' exactly because the streaming services ARE auto-gaining everything!

Yes, but songs are only lowered in volume, so it is possible that your track will be a little too low in volume.

But auto-gaining makes things a lot easier indeed.

[RobC]

I’ve heard others suggest to measure the loudest part of your song and use that setting.

I reinvented that wheel, too - though by using a reference sound to set up loudness at the busiest section.

[selig]

Yes, but songs are only lowered in volume, so it is possible that your track will be a little too low in volume.

But auto-gaining makes things a lot easier indeed.

YouTube and Tidal don’t turn up but I’ve read that Spotify and iTunes DO turn songs up.

The problem is these ‘standards’ are always changing, and new streaming services mean more ‘standards’.

So IMO it’s still best to make your music sound like you want it to sound, rather than trying to “beat” the system, because the system is always changing!


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[Marco Raaphorst]

YouTube and Tidal don’t turn up but I’ve read that Spotify and iTunes DO turn songs up.

The problem is these ‘standards’ are always changing, and new streaming services mean more ‘standards’.

So IMO it’s still best to make your music sound like you want it to sound, rather than trying to “beat” the system, because the system is always changing!


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Yes, but at the same we're all mixing to a norm. We are using references and are comparing stuff so it sounds more or less the same.

[selig]

Yes, but at the same we're all mixing to a norm. We are using references and are comparing stuff so it sounds more or less the same.

Maybe I’m missing the obvious, but is sounds like you’re agreeing there’s no need to reference LUFS, and continue mixing to references as before, or what?

Unless one is concerned with fighting loudness wars, then it’s totally acceptable your song MIGHT sound softer (but better).



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[Marco Raaphorst]

Maybe I’m missing the obvious, but is sounds like you’re agreeing there’s no need to reference LUFS, and continue mixing to references as before, or what?

Unless one is concerned with fighting loudness wars, then it’s totally acceptable your song MIGHT sound softer (but better).



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I am using LUFS. Just to mix everything agains that normative level. Works great imo. Same as for finding out the amount of lowend and highend things needs, it's all normative.

[Biolumin3sc3nt]

minus -120 dBFS for good measure

[RobC]

minus -120 dBFS for good measure

I think it's about time to stop trolling.

[Biolumin3sc3nt]

minus -120 dBFS for good measure

I think it's about time to stop trolling.

My apologies Rob, I mean well. Sarcasm is hard to read sometimes across thru text. I hope some of the ReasonTalk user's get me by now.

[Biolumin3sc3nt]

As far as the Fletcher-Munson curve goes, that applies to "most" people I will agree. I'm one of those rare exceptions however. I'm not gonna gloat or be like my hearing is better than average Joe. I've had tubes put in and out of my ears since I was a baby. Any water to my uncovered ears was an immediate ear infection, and I was an avid swimmer ( still am). I've had holes in both in my eardrums from ear infections, and i was that kid who had to wear those ugly swimming caps with outrageous big custom earplugs.

Long story short, When i had my hearing checked every year in the "Silent Rooms" - I was able to hear consistently frequencies above 30k - My Doctor said He'd never seen anyone that sensitive and that high. Gave me a graph and said I was in the neighborhood of dog hearing territory. I'd actually like to get a copy of that and show you im not joking.

As far as Mastering goes - I'll never be able to be that guy. Much respect to the guys that do, such as Bob Katz! There's a give and take with everything, while I'm 37 now and I don't believe my hearing is as good as it was in the past, I have a disproportionate bias towards certain frequencies and perception of loudness.

Moral of the story - My feeling of SPL and frequency management might differ from yours. That's why I always have a good friend named Matt critique and double check me

Thanx for listening to my slightly intoxicated rant

- Love, Bio

[RobC]

It can confuse others in a topic like this - indicating sarcasm helps. Now, I dared to make a post in The Kitchen that some people could be better behaved, and of course, random trolls arrived. Somebody even mentioned a random "normy", so I thought since random people got apparently butt-hurt ("#offended #triggered") over it, some pointless trolling attempt would start on my posts.

With that out of the way ~

I started thinking that we need to make music achieve a specific loudness. That's because, the louder we listen to something, the more our hearing response changes, as our "ears" start protecting themselves. I didn't mean any specific curve, just that it changes at different loudnesses. Sorry if that wasn't clear. Better ask me, don't go for how others enjoy twisting my words.
Then again, I start realizing, if I balance my music's tone out perfectly (as mastering teachers suggest), it will sound full and detailed, no matter how quiet or loud we listen to it.
Now, it all depends on the sound system afterwards. A common calibration technique I learned (suited for one person at a set loudness), is to create test tones (mostly using sine waves, listening to one at a time), and equalize the sound so that the listener won't hear one louder than the other. Even a simple 5 band graphical equalizer set up can make a huge difference.
All in all, even if your hearing got damaged, you can calibrate each (L/R) side much more perfectly than any manufactured speaker system with generic calibration on the market.
For me, Bernie Grundman is one of the mixing and mastering kings, and I couldn't be happier when I achieved a better tone (with just a half-work test project) - even if some don't understand my methods at first glance.

Now, this is why I dared to say, there's the dimension of a recording. I'm not sure if we will ever hear what it truly sounds like. After all, by the time our brain processes the sound, it gets pre-processed by our hearing system, and sound system - both pretty complex and unique.
You can hear what a vinyl kind of sounds like, though when you listen close to the needle as a record plays (with speakers off).

[Marco Raaphorst]

It's also good to search for the worst sounding stuff. Some of it were hits, was popular. So sound is not important in popmusic, it doesn't have to sound perfect. Not good even. There's stuff with no low end. Stuff with vocals pushed all the way back. Etc.

It's great to think about how relative it all is. Maybe today we try to mix far too perfect because we have the tool. The old stuff is not perfect and that's probably why we like it so much. Not quantised. Not autotuned. Lively. Dynamics.

I recently listened to a podcast op Tape Op with legend Ken Scoot. He said that even 'till this day he not uses much hardware and alwasy tries to do it all when recording, not when mixing. Crime of the Century was using one plate reverb.

Simplicity is also and old rule which works for most art. People can relate to that. And people adopt to stuff. So if something jumps out of the mix, the human ear detects it and adjusts to it.

It's great to let people listen to your stuff who are not experts. If they say it sounds weird, it is probably weird. But I believe that many mixing engineers are fixing stuff which totally kills it. kills the lively tone. You have a couple of YouTube people who are so much in details, it is insane. Takes too much time and has nothing to do with art. Trying too be too perfect is a real danger. Never go there. Too perfect is boring and killing.

[selig]

Years ago I worked with legendary songwriter Tony Joe White, and while mixing I asked how he wanted it to sound. His answer still sticks with me today. He said he likes it when not everything is in it’s place, when some things stick out too far, and others cause the listener to have to lean in to hear it. To paraphrase, he wants the listener to be engaged, to almost have to work for the experience of getting the whole picture. Amazing educational experience on so many levels!

So if/when you hear a mix that isn’t ‘perfect’, don’t assume it’s lack of skill or accidental. Especially if the soul of the music shines through!



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[O1B]

Spot on, in my opinion. But, one still doesn't leave square one with this advice alone.

put another way, music should have a 'dynamic' effect - on the listener..
DYNAMICS.... but, how?

that's the long road... ears.. meters.. reference... no one mentioned the 'natural world'... etc.
but, what REASON lacks, that starts one down the road. .. is a Good VU meter.

RE: THANKS, RED ROCK SOUND. VST: Thanks, Klanghelm (VUMT)

so many pop songs... are just 'flat'. They make for poor references, imo. So choose carefully.
Master the VU meter, and you're off to the races..

His answer still sticks with me today. He said he likes it when not everything is in it’s place, when some things stick out too far, and others cause the listener to have to lean in to hear it. To paraphrase, he wants the listener to be engaged, to almost have to work for the experience of getting the whole picture. Amazing educational experience on so many levels!

So if/when you hear a mix that isn’t ‘perfect’, don’t assume it’s lack of skill or accidental. Especially if the soul of the music shines through!

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[O1B]

Oh, and Target Loudness.

I like the new euro Rules:

-16.0 -1.0 ... I think MRapp mentioned ~ this. ( I remember people writing "MAKE it -15!!)

Tough to achieve, but it's absolutely possible to have explosions, guitars, and a singer sound like they're on Battle Ground.

then, put on headsets. close eyes.

beats -8 dogcrap.