Idividual Track Levels

[Creativemind]

Hi All!

Just been analyzing a track and wondering about individual track dB levels.

I have an acoustic guitar, a bass (synthesized - NN-XT), Verse Vocals, Bridge Vocals. Bridge Backing Vocals, Chorus Vocals, Chorus Vocal Double, Chorus Backing Vocals and also Strings, Piano and Drums (an imported stereo wav).

I've put a Selig Gain on each channel to give me a reading. The readings stated here are the Peak Hold reading on Selig Gain and the mode is set to Trim. I wonder whether this is the right mode for what I'm doing?

Anyway, here's what the Peak Hold is telling me. The two numbers are what the lowest and highest dB readings are that it fluctuates between.

Acoustic Guitar - -22dB and -14dB.
Verse Vocals - -16dB and -09dB.
Bridge Vocals - -21dB and -11dB.
Bridge Backing Vocals - -23dB and -16dB.
Chorus Vocals - -17dB and -6dB.
Chorus Vocal Double (Not duplicated, sang again) - -14dB and -3dB.
Chorus Backing Vocals - -17dB and -08dB.
Piano - -25dB and -12db.
Bass - -20dB and -15dB.
Strings - fluctuates between -15dB to -17dB
Drums - -6dB and 0dB.
Fingerclick (Kong) - -14dB.

Are these usual kind of readings? I suppose reading the individual track meter levels is better than using Selig Gain is more accurate here? I just don't know how (in Reason) you get an accurate level reading, it always seems like you have to guess.

I have a Maximizer on the Master Section (which is bypassed at the moment) but when it's on it brings the overall Master Output Level (according to the Peak Hold reading on Selig Gain again) to -0dB. This is just for loudness purposes for myself, I'd obviously leave it at -6dB before sending it off to be mastered. I understand though, that you want to increase the individual channels to bring it up to 0dB and not use the Maximizer on the Master Section, right?

Thanks!

[normen]

That looks pretty normal to me, yes. Actually pretty hot for what I usually do. You gotta see that in digital desks -18dBFS = +4dBu, which means the "analog" 0dB point is at -18dbFS digital. So having 20dB of headroom isn't unusual. And its no problem pulling that up at the master stage really because the dynamic range of modern systems (analog and digital) is just so wide (100+dB) that 20 dB more or less really don't make a difference. Just look out for your analog noise floor and your digital 0dB point and you're fine these days.

Back in the day when you had to deal with sometimes less than 40dB of dynamic range in devices (i.e. from noise to distortion) gain staging was MUCH more important.

[Creativemind]

How does what analog does matter in the digital realm?

[selig]

How does what analog does matter in the digital realm?

Because every signal eventually ends up analog, and many signals start out analog. And because our digital levels are based on analog levels because the two worlds need to co-exist (at least for some)!

To answer your questions, not being sure exactly where you are measuring your signal (console input, pre fader channel, post fader channel), these levels look a bit hot according to how I like to work, which is to keep channel peak levels at or below -12 dBFS (which puts typical RMS levels in the -20 to -30 dBFS range), and to have the master fader peak between -6 and -3 dBFS with no processing added. Post-fader channel levels then fall where ever they need to fall for a balanced sounding mix.

But again, not enough information to answer every question with any authority.

As for metering “accuracy” it depends on what you are measuring. Reason’s channel meters measure RMS, not peak, which has uses but does not relate well to final output levels with regards to clipping. IMO all digital mixers need peak meters at the least, which is one reason why I created Selig Gain in the first place!

And yes, you’re using Selig Gain correctly to measure levels - the meters always read peak levels regardless of the fader mode (Trim/VCA).

There is no “guessing” in Reason with regards to levels - if the peak meter says the peak level is -6 dBFS, then that’s the peak level. If the VU meter says it’s - 26 dBFS, that’s the level.

We have plenty of ways to measure levels accurately in Reason, so typically the bigger question is WHERE you measure levels, and what SHOULD those levels be (for both peak and RMS measurements).




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[normen]

How does what analog does matter in the digital realm?

It only matters because you record analog sound from your microphone and the analog noise it and the preamp makes After that you're pretty much right. Its just that if your "first digital version" of the audio already has noise on it then that noise will stay there.

[Creativemind]

Thanks everyone...Selig. I had the Gain as an insert (last in the chain if there were any fx added) in the rack on each track.

[selig]

Thanks everyone...Selig. I had the Gain as an insert (last in the chain if there were any fx added) in the rack on each track.

Great - now where was the insert in the channel?

IMO gain should be the same at every process, so no matter where you measure it (upstream of the channel fader) it should be pretty much the same.

In analog systems, you needed to gain stage because different parts of the signal path had different amounts of dynamic range/signal to noise/headroom.

But in Reason there are only two ranges to work with: huge and incredibly huge. The main signal path is 32 bits, which gives a theoretical dynamic range of 1500 dB, while the Big Mixer’s mix bus is 64 bit (3000 dB dynamic range). This range extends above and below 0 dBFS, which is why you can go over 0 dBFS internally then bring it back down before it hits the outputs and it’s OK!

Because there are no ‘bottle necks’ to worry about except for at the final output, you can simply keep your levels the same at every point in the signal path, which is extremely helpful in many ways.

That is to say that every signal should have a similar peak level before it gets to the fader, and then it’s up to you how you want to balance your tracks against each other as to what levels each channel/fader should sit at.


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