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I'm producing a techno-inspired electronica album that will be released digitally and physically. I am aware of the war on loudness in the digital realm but I'm torn with giving a physical album to somebody that is not loud enough. Should I try to have different masters or find some middle ground between the digital and physical realm? I was thinking -12 LUFS across the board but I don't think that is going to work for me since my music is supposed to be hitting pretty hard. Maybe I'm overthinking this and it is more dependent on the musical content.

Not sure the accuracy of the article but have a read. https://www.masteringthemix.com/blogs/l ... -streaming

RandomSkratch wrote: ↑

18 Oct 2017

Not sure the accuracy of the article but have a read. https://www.masteringthemix.com/blogs/l ... -streaming

Good read. What's the difference between LUFS and DR? I know the basics I think. Is DR measured on the loudest section of the song and LUFS is measured for the whole song? I always thought they were the same but they're clearly not. So confused :S

CaliforniaBurrito wrote: ↑

18 Oct 2017

I'm producing a techno-inspired electronica album that will be released digitally and physically. I am aware of the war on loudness in the digital realm but I'm torn with giving a physical album to somebody that is not loud enough. Should I try to have different masters or find some middle ground between the digital and physical realm? I was thinking -12 LUFS across the board but I don't think that is going to work for me since my music is supposed to be hitting pretty hard. Maybe I'm overthinking this and it is more dependent on the musical content.

Some expert Reason users say: don't worry about it.

The streaming services all follow a different norm. So when you mix something super dynamic, the limiter on Spotify might kick in. Or YouTube, Apple Music etc.

-15 LUFS is my safe bet. For a song.

Marco Raaphorst wrote: ↑

19 Oct 2017

CaliforniaBurrito wrote: ↑

18 Oct 2017

I'm producing a techno-inspired electronica album that will be released digitally and physically. I am aware of the war on loudness in the digital realm but I'm torn with giving a physical album to somebody that is not loud enough. Should I try to have different masters or find some middle ground between the digital and physical realm? I was thinking -12 LUFS across the board but I don't think that is going to work for me since my music is supposed to be hitting pretty hard. Maybe I'm overthinking this and it is more dependent on the musical content.

Some expert Reason users say: don't worry about it.

The streaming services all follow a different norm. So when you mix something super dynamic, the limiter on Spotify might kick in. Or YouTube, Apple Music etc.

-15 LUFS is my safe bet. For a song.

And when you master to -15LUFS what DR is that? Do you know how to achieve a DR of 9 and LUFS of -13 to -16? I want to understand this better.

Galaxy wrote: ↑

19 Oct 2017

Marco Raaphorst wrote: ↑

19 Oct 2017

Some expert Reason users say: don't worry about it.

The streaming services all follow a different norm. So when you mix something super dynamic, the limiter on Spotify might kick in. Or YouTube, Apple Music etc.

-15 LUFS is my safe bet. For a song.

And when you master to -15LUFS what DR is that? Do you know how to achieve a DR of 9 and LUFS of -13 to -16? I want to understand this better.

Maybe my blogpost helps: https://melodiefabriek.com/blog/loudness/

Marco Raaphorst wrote:

CaliforniaBurrito wrote: ↑

18 Oct 2017

I'm producing a techno-inspired electronica album that will be released digitally and physically. I am aware of the war on loudness in the digital realm but I'm torn with giving a physical album to somebody that is not loud enough. Should I try to have different masters or find some middle ground between the digital and physical realm? I was thinking -12 LUFS across the board but I don't think that is going to work for me since my music is supposed to be hitting pretty hard. Maybe I'm overthinking this and it is more dependent on the musical content.

Some expert Reason users say: don't worry about it.

The streaming services all follow a different norm. So when you mix something super dynamic, the limiter on Spotify might kick in. Or YouTube, Apple Music etc.

-15 LUFS is my safe bet. For a song.

Can you elaborate on this built in limiter?

I was under the impression there was no limiters used by these services, which was the whole idea behind using LUF standards in the first place, right? Or did I miss something important?

What I understood to be the case with streaming services was that your music was analyzed and simply turned up or down to assure all music played at the same measured loudness.

If there are limiters being used, then it matters what levels you choose - but if not, then it only matters what you want your music to sound like. Meaning that if you want your music super-compressed, then do so (and understand it will be turned down when streaming, which is intended to do the same thing what a listener would do).



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selig wrote: ↑

19 Oct 2017

Marco Raaphorst wrote:
Some expert Reason users say: don't worry about it.

The streaming services all follow a different norm. So when you mix something super dynamic, the limiter on Spotify might kick in. Or YouTube, Apple Music etc.

-15 LUFS is my safe bet. For a song.

Can you elaborate on this built in limiter?

I was under the impression there was no limiters used by these services, which was the whole idea behind using LUF standards in the first place, right? Or did I miss something important?

What I understood to be the case with streaming services was that your music was analyzed and simply turned up or down to assure all music played at the same measured loudness.

If there are limiters being used, then it matters what levels you choose - but if not, then it only matters what you want your music to sound like. Meaning that if you want your music super-compressed, then do so (and understand it will be turned down when streaming, which is intended to do the same thing what a listener would do).



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They change things all the time, but see for example this discussion on Spotify https://community.spotify.com/t5/Live-I ... -p/1128406

selig wrote: ↑

19 Oct 2017

Marco Raaphorst wrote:
Some expert Reason users say: don't worry about it.

The streaming services all follow a different norm. So when you mix something super dynamic, the limiter on Spotify might kick in. Or YouTube, Apple Music etc.

-15 LUFS is my safe bet. For a song.

Can you elaborate on this built in limiter?

I was under the impression there was no limiters used by these services, which was the whole idea behind using LUF standards in the first place, right? Or did I miss something important?

What I understood to be the case with streaming services was that your music was analyzed and simply turned up or down to assure all music played at the same measured loudness.

If there are limiters being used, then it matters what levels you choose - but if not, then it only matters what you want your music to sound like. Meaning that if you want your music super-compressed, then do so (and understand it will be turned down when streaming, which is intended to do the same thing what a listener would do).



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Ya that's exactly what I thought. I get that the LUFS standard is a way to normalize playback volume. What has always confused me is how LUFS and DR measurements differ. Example being the DR measurement in the FLAM rack extension compared to the LUFS in Red Rock's Measure or Lectric Panda's meter? FLAM also uses LUKS which is what? K weighted? So the time window/gate level/audio band dependency is different right? Some music sounds better dynamic some sounds better compressed. If we want to optimize our music so YouTube/SoundCloud/iTunes does the least amount of volume normalization we should probably aim for -16 to -12 LUFS. If we make dense music like the OP does how can someone lower the LUFS of a song if the DR is more narrow, just turn it down? Sorry I'm so confused.

Btw, good read Marco. I appreciate the link to your blog.

Galaxy wrote:

selig wrote: ↑

19 Oct 2017

Can you elaborate on this built in limiter?

I was under the impression there was no limiters used by these services, which was the whole idea behind using LUF standards in the first place, right? Or did I miss something important?

What I understood to be the case with streaming services was that your music was analyzed and simply turned up or down to assure all music played at the same measured loudness.

If there are limiters being used, then it matters what levels you choose - but if not, then it only matters what you want your music to sound like. Meaning that if you want your music super-compressed, then do so (and understand it will be turned down when streaming, which is intended to do the same thing what a listener would do).



Sent from some crappy device using Tapatalk

Ya that's exactly what I thought. I get that the LUFS standard is a way to normalize playback volume. What has always confused me is how LUFS and DR measurements differ. Example being the DR measurement in the FLAM rack extension compared to the LUFS in Red Rock's Measure or Lectric Panda's meter? FLAM also uses LUKS which is what? K weighted? So the time window/gate level/audio band dependency is different right? Some music sounds better dynamic some sounds better compressed. If we want to optimize our music so YouTube/SoundCloud/iTunes does the least amount of volume normalization we should probably aim for -16 to -12 LUFS. If we make dense music like the OP does how can someone lower the LUFS of a song if the DR is more narrow, just turn it down? Sorry I'm so confused.

Btw, good read Marco. I appreciate the link to your blog.

But if ALL that’s happening is volume adjustment, does it matter what level you mix at since the result is your mix will not sound louder or quieter than the songs on either side of it?


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selig wrote: ↑

19 Oct 2017

Galaxy wrote:
Ya that's exactly what I thought. I get that the LUFS standard is a way to normalize playback volume. What has always confused me is how LUFS and DR measurements differ. Example being the DR measurement in the FLAM rack extension compared to the LUFS in Red Rock's Measure or Lectric Panda's meter? FLAM also uses LUKS which is what? K weighted? So the time window/gate level/audio band dependency is different right? Some music sounds better dynamic some sounds better compressed. If we want to optimize our music so YouTube/SoundCloud/iTunes does the least amount of volume normalization we should probably aim for -16 to -12 LUFS. If we make dense music like the OP does how can someone lower the LUFS of a song if the DR is more narrow, just turn it down? Sorry I'm so confused.

Btw, good read Marco. I appreciate the link to your blog.

But if ALL that’s happening is volume adjustment, does it matter what level you mix at since the result is your mix will not sound louder or quieter than the songs on either side of it?


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Of course, that much I understand and aiming for a target LUFS is mostly pointless cause of the exact reason you state above. Unless you work in broadcast then I'd imagine aiming for target LUFS is an important practice. What I would like to understand is the relationship between LUFS and DR, cause I've seen their read outs differ. Say a song that has a DR of 8 but an LUFS of -14? How does that work?

Galaxy wrote:

selig wrote: ↑

19 Oct 2017

But if ALL that’s happening is volume adjustment, does it matter what level you mix at since the result is your mix will not sound louder or quieter than the songs on either side of it?


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Of course, that much I understand and aiming for a target LUFS is mostly pointless cause of the exact reason you state above. Unless you work in broadcast then I'd imagine aiming for target LUFS is an important practice. What I would like to understand is the relationship between LUFS and DR, cause I've seen their read outs differ. Say a song that has a DR of 8 but an LUFS of -14? How does that work?

Short answer - loudness is subjective and every attempt to quantify it will result in a different value (since different parameters are used to make the measurements). The biggest difference appears to be how “time” is used (or not used), since humans use time in our perception of loudness.

That is to say ALL of these types of measurements are compromises used to try to find a way to quantify the unquantify-able and subjective. These are all just one way to turn a feeling into a number, so to speak, so they will all possibly give you a different result!


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For your physical product (cd) I'd match what your competitors / peers are doing (so long as it still sounds good).

Zac wrote:For your physical product (cd) I'd match what your competitors / peers are doing (so long as it still sounds good).

Good suggestion - I’d also add that when going ‘physical’ I would hire an experienced mastering engineer and let THEM advise you rather than asking random folks on the internet.

Zac’s point that it’s genre specific is important!


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Well of course, -3 LUFS like Metallica is the only way to go

Peter your mixes always sound good whatever I listen to them on.

I think I'd go along with Zac, just match the loudness with something representative in the same genre.

Somebody would have to pretty ham-fisted to make one of your tracks sound bad.

aeox wrote: ↑

19 Oct 2017

Well of course, -3 LUFS like Metallica is the only way to go

Ha ha I couldn't believe the mastering on death magnetic. .. unbelievable. Having said that I have a lot of lp records in that genre that are way too low in loudness. I.e when enjoyed at good gain it makes me jump when the arm drops or lifts, and don't let it skate XD

An easy trick: A/B compare reference stuff playing on YouTube, Spotify etc. Using your ears.

Sound quality is not that important. Simply check the music that's available. Not everything sounds superb but most people will not notice. During the loudness war most people were not complaining. And even worse: the musicians asked for loud mastering. Clipped bits all over the song.

Thanks guys for the feedback. I agree that this issue can be dependent on the genre and personal references. I read something recently about electronic music still being the wild west when it comes to loudness and it will be the last to conform to any loudness standards. Really though, if I was doing any other kind of music, I'd probably be more laid back with loudness.

CaliforniaBurrito wrote: ↑

19 Oct 2017

Thanks guys for the feedback. I agree that this issue can be dependent on the genre and personal references. I read something recently about electronic music still being the wild west when it comes to loudness and it will be the last to conform to any loudness standards. Really though, if I was doing any other kind of music, I'd probably be more laid back with loudness.

Well not on all the streaming services. Lufs norms are not genre specific.

Check out the Levels plugin. Might be useful in your case. https://www.masteringthemix.com/products/levels

My last two albums were mastered super loud, which has come back to bite me with the move to -14 LUFS. Spotify's normalization came down hard and my music now sounds a little too quiet.

SoundCloud still doesn't do any normalization, though, so the loudness war still exists there. For my new album, I'm planning two mixes, a -14 LUFS master for streaming and digital, and a whatever-just-make-it-loud master for SoundCloud.

fieldframe wrote: ↑

28 Oct 2017

My last two albums were mastered super loud, which has come back to bite me with the move to -14 LUFS. Spotify's normalization came down hard and my music now sounds a little too quiet.

SoundCloud still doesn't do any normalization, though, so the loudness war still exists there. For my new album, I'm planning two mixes, a -14 LUFS master for streaming and digital, and a whatever-just-make-it-loud master for SoundCloud.

Interesting. Thanks for the insight. What would you think about doing -12 LUFS for all platforms including physical cd? CD Baby's physical cd duplication and distribution service offers a digital release addition to the package with their digital partner. (It took me a while to figure out that CD Baby was actually two entities.) Although I'm wondering if it is best to try two separate submissions which is more of a hassle when I'd rather have it be one and done.

By the way, I've been listening to my album at -12 LUFS in the car, earbuds, laptop speakers and it is loud enough for sure.

fieldframe wrote: ↑

28 Oct 2017

My last two albums were mastered super loud, which has come back to bite me with the move to -14 LUFS. Spotify's normalization came down hard and my music now sounds a little too quiet.

SoundCloud still doesn't do any normalization, though, so the loudness war still exists there. For my new album, I'm planning two mixes, a -14 LUFS master for streaming and digital, and a whatever-just-make-it-loud master for SoundCloud.

Spotify doesn't make your mix sound softer than others. This is why they use that gain control. Yours will sound exactly as loud as the rest but overly usage of compression might make it sound a little less dynamic and boring.