So like, what exactly makes for a high quality sample / patch?

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avasopht
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14 Oct 2017

Heard a few mentions this week of getting better quality sample / instrument libraries. So I have to ask, what exactly constitutes high quality?

Miroslav, Sonic Reality and many others were all recorded professionally, so what makes something like Stringwerks or the one that comes with Kontakt higher quality? Is it more to do with style / trends, articulations or even expressiveness (range of expressions in a single patch depending on velocity, etc.)? What is this "quality" I hear people speak of?

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normen
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14 Oct 2017

Lol, are you trolling as well now? ;) I am pretty sure you know very well that theres no objective "good". A distorted guitar would traditionally be considered the worst thing that could happen.

"But oh", some might say "theres definitely a good piano sample and a bad one" - no there isn't. Look at how people still want the sound of a Mellotron even today - the worst kind of sample there could be.

"But oh, some synths have cleaner waves than others" - yeah but that isn't automatically good either. The Virus aliased like heck and people loved it - possible even because of that.

But still yes, if you want the best reproduction of a piano in a room as a playable sample instrument of course the library with more samples etc., in a sampler that has features especially tailored for that will get closer to the desired result. That still doesn't mean that that piano sampler will sound better in a certain mix :)

Ostermilk
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14 Oct 2017

avasopht wrote:
14 Oct 2017
Heard a few mentions this week of getting better quality sample / instrument libraries. So I have to ask, what exactly constitutes high quality?

Miroslav, Sonic Reality and many others were all recorded professionally, so what makes something like Stringwerks or the one that comes with Kontakt higher quality? Is it more to do with style / trends, articulations or even expressiveness (range of expressions in a single patch depending on velocity, etc.)? What is this "quality" I hear people speak of?
I guess there are many different qualties to look for rather than a single definition. For some it might mean detailed multi mic'd and velocity layered sampling which, along with scripting/keyswitching for articulation, is able to fake realism to a greater or lesser extent. The 'greater' end of the spectrum would represent better quality in this example then, no?

In reality though a well chosen or tailored handful of samples can often trump a megalithic library in terms of being right for a particular project, as you are likely to be aware already.

There are other aspects of quality as well, such as playability of a piano for example, some folk will have preferences in this regard. I use Superior Drummer mostly because I just click with how it works, yet someone else may well prefer BFD or something else as capable. In these instances it's less about 'quality' and more about the 'qualities' that appeal to a particular user.

That which produces the very best result, is as near a definition as I can get to the question of 'what is this 'quality'. you hear people speak of.

Do you have any ideas yourself?

avasopht
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14 Oct 2017

normen wrote:
14 Oct 2017
Lol, are you trolling as well now? ;)could happen.
Welllll.. :twisted:

I think it's an important question some people ought to ask themselves and think deeply about. And it's exactly what you said. I think quality is more often than not "quality," in that it's a label given to what is desirable for perhaps a distinctive sound targeting one's genre of preference.

avasopht
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15 Oct 2017

Ostermilk wrote:
14 Oct 2017
Do you have any ideas yourself?
You pretty much nailed it. I think that quality is too commonly seen as an elusive property of a sound rather than as you say, considering what exactly are the qualities or properties being sought after.

I find music making so much more fulfilling with a perceptiveness of what a sound is made and how to manipulate my sounds. Also if I really wanted a choir I can't replicate, I can at least replicate the character I wanted from it in some way.

I imagine a lot of fantastic sounds are overlooked by the novice because of this. Maybe it just needed a little EQ, filtering or distortion.

When it comes to drums and pianos, there's so much to getting it to feel right to someone who is accustomed to the many variations, sounds and characteristics of physical and mechanical instruments.

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hurricane
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15 Oct 2017

This is really easy, at least when it comes to pianos. Take a Reason factory piano for example, and directly compare it to a Piantoeq piano. But don't just listen to demos, actually play both pianos. Your ears and fingers should tell you almost immediately which is "higher quality". : )
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normen
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15 Oct 2017

hurricane wrote:
15 Oct 2017
This is really easy, at least when it comes to pianos. Take a Reason factory piano for example, and directly compare it to a Piantoeq piano. But don't just listen to demos, actually play both pianos. Your ears and fingers should tell you almost immediately which is "higher quality". : )
Well I tried and I didn‘t hear that, I just heard two different sounds. What am I supposed to listen to to realize the quality? :)

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hurricane
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15 Oct 2017

Well, mr "professional" audio engineer, either you really don't know (and who knows maybe you don't - have some of your music samples you can show us?) OR you're trying to prove a silly point in a silly way. And as a long-time lurker, I've seen plenty of silly debates around here lately. I think you know what "high quality" means in this context, and if you don't maybe you should replace the word "professional" from your title. I mean, you wouldn't want to mislead people now, would you? : )

"What am I supposed to listen to to realize the quality?"
- Normen, Professional Audio Engineer

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Exowildebeest
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15 Oct 2017

"Realism" would be the closest to an objective criterium one can get for sampled acoustic instruments, I think.

What's realistic/what's reality is also subjective of course, but still...

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normen
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15 Oct 2017

hurricane wrote:
15 Oct 2017
Well, mr "professional" audio engineer, either you really don't know (and who knows maybe you don't - have some of your music samples you can show us?) OR you're trying to prove a silly point in a silly way. And as a long-time lurker, I've seen plenty of silly debates around here lately. I think you know what "high quality" means in this context, and if you don't maybe you should replace the word "professional" from your title. I mean, you wouldn't want to mislead people now, would you? : )

"What am I supposed to listen to to realize the quality?"
- Normen, Professional Audio Engineer

Danke.
Oh, is it you Mr. Miyagi? Neat how you adapt your name to the trolling style.

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normen
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15 Oct 2017

Exowildebeest wrote:
15 Oct 2017
"Realism" would be the closest to an objective criterium one can get for sampled acoustic instruments, I think.

What's realistic/what's reality is also subjective of course, but still...
But an audio recording can per se not be "realism". You have sounds that are generated by a whole complex 3D object vibrating, captured through a few membranes and then played back by larger membranes :)

You CAN NOT currently reproduce what you'd hear if you were in that room with the piano, not even with the Kunstkopf. So its always artistic decisions in the "how" it sounds, consequently "realism" isn't the same as "quality".

But sure, what you mean is "does it sound like a mic'd piano?" which is fair enough but still it doesn't say anything about the "quality", which at worst is simply a subjective human construct and at best depends on the situation - but you know that.

For example I personally don't like the sound of a piano playing chords AT ALL - single notes are kind of cool though, I love that note in "Baker Street" or a cool boogie woogie run - I guess these two could be done with Reason stock pianos in a way that would please me 100% :)

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Exowildebeest
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15 Oct 2017

That's all rather philosophical.

Let's stay practical. If I want a "realistic" piano in my track, would I reach for a Kontakt library that advertises itself as "Hyperreal Piano 3.0" but that lacks multiple samples per note and has sounds of babies crying in the background on G#4 and F2? Or would I go for the one that doesn't these faults?

The latter obviously, and by those simple practical standards, it's higher quality.

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normen
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15 Oct 2017

Exowildebeest wrote:
15 Oct 2017
That's all rather philosophical.

Let's stay practical. If I want a "realistic" piano in my track, would I reach for a Kontakt library that advertises itself as "Hyperreal Piano 3.0" but that lacks multiple samples per note and has sounds of babies crying in the background on G#4 and F2? Or would I go for the one that doesn't these faults?

The latter obviously, and by those simple practical standards, it's higher quality.
Well its a bit different in this case. What you actually do is saying that you can't use the piano that is standing in the studio right away after playing a few notes on it and demanding a Steinway instead of simply playing with the band and seeing if it works for the actual music you intend to do. I can tell you I HATE people like that on stage and in the studio :)

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