What if I can't get good speaker placement?

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Jagwah
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29 Jul 2017

The more I read about mixing the more I see an emphasis placed on the importance of the room and speaker placement.

I do have a square room but my speaker's position is not central to a wall or corner. I also do not have bass traps or any kind of room treatment. Another thing is they are up against a wall. I have my speakers a good distance apart, and they are directed right at my ears as specified in their manual, but that's all.

I understand that I am actually hearing the room more than I am hearing my speakers, but there must be a lot of producers without the luxury of a dedicated, correctly set up room. Things can not be rearranged, so what do I need to think about and approach differently when mixing in an inapropriate room?


Thanks!

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Ahornberg
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29 Jul 2017

Maybe you can make your own absober panels:


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demt
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29 Jul 2017

Most people use either end of the desk
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4filegate
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29 Jul 2017

Ahornberg wrote:
29 Jul 2017
Maybe you can make your own absober panels:
Ta!
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demt wrote:
29 Jul 2017
Most people use either end of the desk
2x microphone stand Threaded connector 3/8"

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AttenuationHz
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29 Jul 2017

Ahornberg wrote:
29 Jul 2017
Maybe you can make your own absober panels:

All that proves is towels are better than absorbing than "re-labelled packaging foam" how would they compare to the proper acoustic panels is what I'd want to know!

He could have compared the weakest absorption material to a bunch of bananas and came to the same conclusion! :lol:
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boomer
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29 Jul 2017

Likely your biggest problem will be caused by small room dimensions (but you didn't say what they were). Other things are reasonably easy to fix. Speakers up against walls are usually way better than those a few feet out. It's all about 1/4wave distances.

Cheapest fix, open a door or window and have a pair of good headphones to compare your mixes to. Usually you won't hear low bass in the small room and make the mistake of adding too much low end. Then you play it pack in a big room and the bass just jumps out as in a big room you will all of a sudden be able to hear all the lows you added but couldn't hear in the small room.

"Real bass traps" will help. But understand that that does not mean hanging egg crates on the wall.

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AttenuationHz
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29 Jul 2017

boomer wrote:
29 Jul 2017
Likely your biggest problem will be caused by small room dimensions (but you didn't say what they were). Other things are reasonably easy to fix. Speakers up against walls are usually way better than those a few feet out. It's all about 1/4wave distances.

Cheapest fix, open a door or window and have a pair of good headphones to compare your mixes to. Usually you won't hear low bass in the small room and make the mistake of adding too much low end. Then you play it pack in a big room and the bass just jumps out as in a big room you will all of a sudden be able to hear all the lows you added but couldn't hear in the small room.

"Real bass traps" will help. But understand that that does not mean hanging egg crates on the wall.
The opposite is true speakers up against walls create a proximity effect which boosts low frequencies. If you have no choice but to place them up against a wall make sure they are front ported meaning the port for low frequencies is on the front as opposed to the back. 1/4 wave distances or 1/4 points in any shaped room are where the standing waves (meaning that's where frequencies can cancel each other out) they're most likely to occur particularly if the room is square. So the best course of action is to place your listening position so you're in between these points i.e 1/3 of the way of the room width/length.


The main thing you should be doing with your listening position is making it so it's in an equilateral triangle to your ears, so if the tweaters are 100 cm apart you should be sitting in the middle of them with the distance from each ear being 100cm to the tweeters. Its best practice to have your monitors at a 30° angle. If they're 7 feet apart the same rule applies you need to be 7 feet from them with them being at a 30° angle.
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boomer
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29 Jul 2017

AttenuationHz wrote:
29 Jul 2017

The opposite is true speakers up against walls create a proximity effect which boosts low frequencies.
This is true. But this is easily fixed with EQ. OTOH you cannot bring back the nulls from phase cancellation with an equalizer.

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AttenuationHz
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29 Jul 2017

boomer wrote:
29 Jul 2017
AttenuationHz wrote:
29 Jul 2017

The opposite is true speakers up against walls create a proximity effect which boosts low frequencies.
This is true. But this is easily fixed with EQ. OTOH you cannot bring back the nulls from phase cancellation with an equalizer.

It should not be fixed with EQ on your master chain though it should only be fixed with an external or room EQ in between your sound-card output and speakers. If you remove the frequencies caused by proximity on your master when monitoring you'll have to make sure you bypass when exporting the file. That's what leads to having no bass when listening to the track in another environment. Thinking that the lovely bass in the low end caused by the proximity of the monitor to the wall is too much and backing it off with EQ. When you go into a different studio there will be to little bass because you removed it.

Guess what though the nulls don't exist. They are the product of the room. It's a Psychoacoustic effect!
It is not too much of an ask for people or things to be the best version of itself!

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demt
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29 Jul 2017

Modern systems like woofers means plenty of good headphone work when creating and mixing in fact our music is played by the customers through so many different types of devices we should advise them to use the bass and treble controls for more than compensating for volume
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boomer
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29 Jul 2017

AttenuationHz wrote:
29 Jul 2017
boomer wrote:
29 Jul 2017


This is true. But this is easily fixed with EQ. OTOH you cannot bring back the nulls from phase cancellation with an equalizer.

It should not be fixed with EQ on your master chain though it should only be fixed with an external or room EQ in between your sound-card output and speakers.
Well of course! You are tuning the speakers to the room. It really has nothing to do with the sound source.
Guess what though the nulls don't exist. They are the product of the room. It's a Psychoacoustic effect!
You would be incorrect there. They absolutely exist and are quite easy to measure.

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AttenuationHz
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29 Jul 2017

boomer wrote:
29 Jul 2017
AttenuationHz wrote:
29 Jul 2017



It should not be fixed with EQ on your master chain though it should only be fixed with an external or room EQ in between your sound-card output and speakers.
Well of course! You are tuning the speakers to the room. It really has nothing to do with the sound source.
Guess what though the nulls don't exist. They are the product of the room. It's a Psychoacoustic effect!
You would be incorrect there. They absolutely exist and are quite easy to measure.
Are they present in the track is the point I'm making in the context of what I'm talking about. Same way as you remove the bass frequency from a track, In another room you will hear no bass, in another room you will hear the nulls! And that room if it has nulls you won't hear them frequencies in the track.

You don't tune speakers to the room though you tune the room to the speakers!

If it was possible to get a flat frequency response from a set of monitors you would pretty much want the same frequency response from the room!
It is not too much of an ask for people or things to be the best version of itself!

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aeox
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29 Jul 2017

My speakers just sit on my desk for when I lay down to watch netflix (bedroom producer).. I can't really get good placement either. I suppose for my situation it would help to get some monitor stands and put them further away from me behind the desk.

I use headphones for now.

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selig
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29 Jul 2017

boomer wrote:
AttenuationHz wrote:
29 Jul 2017

The opposite is true speakers up against walls create a proximity effect which boosts low frequencies.
This is true. But this is easily fixed with EQ. OTOH you cannot bring back the nulls from phase cancellation with an equalizer.
Few things are fixed with EQ - you can't EQ a dip, for example. The opposite example, ringing room modes, cannot be fixed by EQ since it's more about the 'hang time' than the frequency response, which produces "loose bass" response (the opposite of "tight bass" response, which is more desirable).

Speakers against a wall are typically a bad idea, but sometimes unavoidable (in small rooms). However, it's even worse if you have speakers that are rear-ported, and should definitely be avoided in that case (or use different monitors).




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AttenuationHz
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29 Jul 2017

aeox wrote:
29 Jul 2017
My speakers just sit on my desk for when I lay down to watch netflix (bedroom producer).. I can't really get good placement either. I suppose for my situation it would help to get some monitor stands and put them further away from me behind the desk.

I use headphones for now.
Really what it boils down to is how well you know the sound on the speakers. I can tell you 100% that if you placed them on stands with acoustic foam for speakers on them they would sound so much better.
Image

I have Adam f5's and they are on make shift shelves because I just have not got the space for the stands they are front ported and sit at 30° pretty close to the wall about 4 inches. But removing the foam they are sitting on changes the sound big time.
I have acoustic foam behind them but no other treatment beside natural absorbers jackets/dirty underwear/carpet/curtains/dog.

If you can't afford the expensive treatments. I know I can't. That monitor foam is cheapish and well worth the investment.

I've thought of investing in treatment myself but I'm still researching it to be honest because every space is different and acoustics is math. There is a lot of online calculators that you input your dimensions and a massive list will be shown for what treatment to buy, It can't be trusted if you ask me, its just a selling tool. But I'm sure there are a few that will tell you the least amount. I believe you should you have treatment at the parallel points at both ears the wall behind you and the ceiling above you that would be pretty inexpensive. I may try out the towel thing myself but the panels are pretty easy to make for sure rock wool and your favourite canvas or material!
It is not too much of an ask for people or things to be the best version of itself!

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AttenuationHz
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29 Jul 2017

There a few other tricks you could use for mixing. How does the track sound when not in the room. Anything stick out that you do not hear in the room. You can use you're surroundings as natural filters go out of the room and stand in the shower with the shower doors or curtain closed any higher frequency more prominent? Stick your head into a wardrobe in another room bass sound well? Stand in the hallway. Point being you can kill two birds with one stone taking a break while you make a cup of tea while a track is playing how does that sound, your not concentrating on the track so anything you're not hearing while mixing it might be more prominent.
It is not too much of an ask for people or things to be the best version of itself!

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Jagwah
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29 Jul 2017

Hey guys really appreciate the feedback, I'll add a few details and see if it helps.

It's a rental so nothing is going to be attached to the walls. I have ISO-L8R stands, as good as or arguably better than foam. Rokit 5 speakers. I love working in and even mixing in my headphones (Beyer DT770s) - but surely the speakers are a better mixing choice as I purchased them for this reason, even with a bad room position? They are about 9cm from the wall, at roughly a 30 degree angle. To the left of me is a big desk hutch, it's awesome but probably no good for room acoustics.

The room itself is almost square. The wall behind me and the wall my speakers are on is 3.42m (342cm). The other two walls to my left and right are 3.72m (372cm). My speakers are set left of centre, and to my right on the same wall in the corner is the entry door. Also, the wall on my right, up at the end behind me is a cupboard door. I have windows but they won't be open when I'm mixing.
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AttenuationHz
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30 Jul 2017

Jagwah wrote:
29 Jul 2017
Hey guys really appreciate the feedback, I'll add a few details and see if it helps.

It's a rental so nothing is going to be attached to the walls. I have ISO-L8R stands, as good as or arguably better than foam. Rokit 5 speakers. I love working in and even mixing in my headphones (Beyer DT770s) - but surely the speakers are a better mixing choice as I purchased them for this reason, even with a bad room position? They are about 9cm from the wall, at roughly a 30 degree angle. To the left of me is a big desk hutch, it's awesome but probably no good for room acoustics.

The room itself is almost square. The wall behind me and the wall my speakers are on is 3.42m (342cm). The other two walls to my left and right are 3.72m (372cm). My speakers are set left of centre, and to my right on the same wall in the corner is the entry door. Also, the wall on my right, up at the end behind me is a cupboard door. I have windows but they won't be open when I'm mixing.

18927298_1334695309948915_1143654023_o.jpg
If you want to get pretty close to 30°▼60° angle here's how it might take a little bit of time but its worth the effort.

First thing you might want to do is make sure your ears are level with the Tweeters! If they are not then placing the stands on books to give them a boost works well as long as both stacks of books are level or if you can extend the stands which it looks like they are that type.

I see your on the shortest wall that's good. The angle pretty much needs to be exact though and for both speakers luckily you can make a 30/60 angle with a piece of paper. What I did was take a A4 sheet of paper and a ruler. Measure across 167.5mm (16.75cm) on the end of the page and mark that. Take the ruler and place one end on the mark the other on the opposite corner and fold it over the ruler. The two fold points need to be at the mark and in the corner exactly. Its not an exact 30/60 angle but it's pretty close to it. If you continue to fold each bit sticking out over each other you can use it at the back of the monitors.

You'll be surprised how far off both monitors are without a make shift angle. The Shortest part is 30° and the longest part is 60° (90° straight bit) If you were to place two of these together its very close to an equilateral triangle when both halves are up against each other. You want the shortest part of the folded paper to be facing left on the left monitor (right on the right) and try make the angle as straight as possible to the back of the monitor (the gap in between the wall and monitor will be 30°) as will the front but the side angle will be 60°. Once you get the perfect angle on both I'd recommend marking the position on the desk somehow, tape always works!

Next thing you want is a measuring tape and measure from tweeter to tweeter this is important for getting the equilateral position. Generally there is a sweet spot just behind the head. Listening position is dead centre line of the two monitors in the centre room of the shortest wall. Next thing I would definitely recommend is getting skill saw to that hutch!

Even the lava lamp would be bouncing frequencies around irregularly which in some instances is not necessarily a bad thing but if anything you want the listening position to be as clear as possible and frequencies to be broken up behind you (i.e. acoustic panels)

If you are not sure if you are not in the sweet spot/center with the angle set up you can do it visually instead. Keep your head looking straight at the wall. With your left eye closed, look at the right side of the left monitor (side closest to the screen) with your right eye. Do the same with you right eye closed look at the left side of the right monitor (closest to the screen) with your left eye. The left and right inside parts of both monitors should be equal. :ugeek:
It is not too much of an ask for people or things to be the best version of itself!

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selig
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30 Jul 2017

Considering you're limited by your desk/room space, looks like you're pretty good as is. I don't agree there should be an exact 30° per speaker - most mix engineers I know like to sit INSIDE the triangle, meaning the speakers should hit a spot slightly behind you.
Since you can't move your speaker's width, you're only choice is to angle them more/less - so they should be aimed at your ears or a little past them. This means basically when you look at the speakers you are looking head on to them. If you see the tops, they are too low, if you see the sides they are not angled right.
Yes ideally you should create a nice equilateral triangle between the speakers and your head, which means the distance between speakers is equal to the distance from your ears to each speaker - but that's not always possible because in your room the distance between the speakers is not adjustable. So the quickest way to get the "triangle" without even having to know the angles is to simply measure the distance between the monitors, then from one monitor to your ears - you should ideally be just inside that distance at your mix position.
The rest of your space, since you can't do anything about is, is what it is. IF you could do anything, I'd try to make it more symmetrical - in this case it might mean putting a book case on the right to match the one on your left, or putting curtain on the book case and matching them on the right. But for most folks, you just make the best of the rental situation! Try to listen to music you like before beginning to work on your music, to at least gain an understanding of what your room is doing to the music. You don't necessarily need to take notes, just listen and get used to the sound of your room/monitors. Then when you start working on your music, you'll have more of an internal acoustic 'compass' to guide your decisions.
Keep listening, keep making adjustments if you can, and try to have fun and not stress too much - this isn't rocket science and should remain "fun" even when doing more of the science part of the process. Good luck!


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AttenuationHz
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30 Jul 2017

Just posting this here because I was mentioning acoustic panels.

It is not too much of an ask for people or things to be the best version of itself!

PeterP
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02 Aug 2017

A good way to reduce the impact of bad acoustics in a room is to listen at low volume and be close to your near field monitors.

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selig
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02 Aug 2017

Another thought - is that a corner desk I see in the picture? I had something similar (from Ikea) and opted to make the mix position in the corner rather than along one wall (was a very small room like yours). I know that's breaking many of the placement rules, but for very small rooms you can do just about anything (placement wise) and it will all sound bad, but some setups will sound less bad! ;)

So maybe (if it's physically possible) try the corner orientation and see if it sounds any better than your present orientation. Long ago I found that putting your mixer/speakers along the short wall (so that the longest space was behind you) sounded best to my ears. In a more square room, the longest distance is from corner to corner, which may or may not help in your case. Worth a try IMO!
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adfielding
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02 Aug 2017

I know a lot of people will probably frown upon this, but I'd say... don't worry too much about it. I'm very much of the opinion that knowing the room you're in is much more important than having an amazing monitoring setup, unless you're working as a professional mix/mastering engineer.

I read a really interesting piece from Stephen King a while back about how, once he'd had a decent amount of success, he spent a lot of money getting a really nice, professional space ready to use exclusively as a work-room, primarily because he figured that was the done thing to do. Once he'd set it up, he realised that it was totally uninspiring because he'd essentially put up a barrier between himself and his life. To counter this, he started incorporating his life in his studio and encouraging his family to spend time in there - he got a TV and a nice sofa in there so he could be closer to the things that inspired him rather than shutting them out.

The point of this is that you can have the nicest, most professional studio space to man, but there's not much point in it if you're not inspired to be creative while you're in there. Once you know the quirks of a room, you can work around it. I know tastes differ, but personally I'd take a comfy space in my house over a dingy professional space any day.

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ryanharlin
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02 Aug 2017

adfielding wrote:
02 Aug 2017
I know a lot of people will probably frown upon this, but I'd say... don't worry too much about it. I'm very much of the opinion that knowing the room you're in is much more important than having an amazing monitoring setup, unless you're working as a professional mix/mastering engineer.
I saw the title of this post and then noticed the latest comment was from Adam. I clicked the thread and read the original post and thought "Okay what did Adam have to say... I hope he said what I would've, which is 'don't get too hung up on this'." Scrolled down and sure enough... :)

And Adam is right, too. Don't worry too much about it. I mix in a room and set up that would make a mastering engineer cringe, with my speakers in front of two glass windows even! (the horror!!!) But I've never felt that my room was impeding my mix.

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selig
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02 Aug 2017

To add to Adam and Ryan's wisdom - for the second time in the past few years I find myself working with a (gasp) mono setup. Yup, I said it. Yea, I have thousands of dollars worth of monitors back at the "big" studio, and a very nice set of Equator 8" monitors/sub back in my home workspace in UT. But when I'm here in NYC, which is more and more often, I'm working with a Bose Bluetooth speaker (not using Bluetooth). A few years back, I was using a Roland Cube monitor (still have it for mono reference), and my setup was in a corner.

Here's the thing - the space is more important to me for creative purposes than it is for acoustic purposes. Some of the best studio's I've had the pleasure of working in were sterile (we used to call them the "dentist office" vibe).

Recently read "Studio - Creative Spaces for Creative People" by Sally Coulthard. Even though most of the spaces were for artists/makers, the same rules apply. First, make sure it's a FUN place for you to be, or you'll hate being there. And it goes without saying, if you hate being there, you'll be there less. And the less time you spend there, the less music you make. And so on.

So let your creative space inspire you - if it happens to sound good too, that's a bonus.
;)


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