I need mixing help

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aeox
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08 Jun 2017

EDIT: thanks for all the feedback people!! the mp3 has been taken down.

Okay, I've gotten to the point where I'm questioning everything in regard to mixing music.

I read and hear a lot of things about having the correct room and acoustics, monitors, etc. All the while, being restricted to headphones almost 100% of the time. Maybe I've got a decent idea what a good mix sounds like in my headphones, but when it comes to making and mixing my own music, things get iffy for me. Especially so when I'm confronting myself with a mono version of my mix. Also, I've not a damn clue what any of my "music" really sounds like in a proper studio or even a club for that matter. (Which is what matters? I guess?)

I usually keep to myself about these kinds of things but I really want to gather some opinions and advice from different ears and different listening environments about the music I create.

Here is an example of something I've been working on recently:
Your mix advice is so very appreciated.
Last edited by aeox on 18 Jun 2017, edited 1 time in total.

robthompson
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08 Jun 2017

Hi aeox, I'm a composer of cinematic/classical-type stuff, and I wholly sympathise with you. Back in the day, we could do our work (which we'd spent our lives training for) then hand it over to a different pro for mixing, editing, production (done by people who'd spent their lives training for that...), in the certain knowledge that, by the time it emerged into daylight, our piece would be totally transformed - and finished.

Now, everyone is - and is expected to be - his/her own composer/editor/mixer, etc. But there aren't enough life-times to go around! The complexities of mixing are there, and you (and I) now need to get to grips with them if our work is to see the light of day and not be something we're ashamed to let out of the studio.

I was given good advice when younger. Learn how to listen. A musician who can't listen in detail certainly cannot produce detailed work - which is what we all want. If I don't know what I'm hearing, how will I put it right?

Then there's the huge amount of mixing tutorials on offer. I assume you've seen some of them. It is overwhelming, but you have to start somewhere. Decide first whether you're going to pay for lessons (be careful!) or go the free-way. If you go 'free', choose a complete course provided by a music industry pro/performer/producer. Do a little research, it'll pay off.

Make sure you have the equipment needed. You will have to move out of your 'phones into speakers/monitors. Suck it up. I also have laptop, tablet, mobile phone, friends - anything I can lay my hands on to check how it's sounding.

I'll be honest; I hate mixing, but it's (for me) a necessary evil. It must be done.

So, choose your route, have a positive 'will-do' attitude, and approach it seriously and with determination. You'll get there. No-one reaches the summit of a mountain without first negotiating the foothills....

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Audiotic
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08 Jun 2017

I think reading or watching tutorials or theory can only get you so far...
For me it's really important to listen to my stuff on different Speakers/Stereos after mixing them (usually with headphones).
Over time you will get a feel for how the mix should sound on your headphones, to also sound good on different gear.

It's a learning process and I feel that many people (especially in the beginning) put way too much emphasis and hope in mixing instead of working on actual basic music making skills.
If a track is good you will know, even if the mix is not perfect and then you can devote more time into mixing...

Your example for instance... I think apart from the drums being to loud/prominent and maybe the bass being a bit flat, there is not much wrong with the mix. It's the track itself that needs some work. More variety, denser more tweaked (maybe even different) sounds, etc.

Don't get hung up on mixing this early in the process would be my two cents...

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aeox
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09 Jun 2017

Audiotic wrote:I think reading or watching tutorials or theory can only get you so far...
For me it's really important to listen to my stuff on different Speakers/Stereos after mixing them (usually with headphones).
Over time you will get a feel for how the mix should sound on your headphones, to also sound good on different gear.

It's a learning process and I feel that many people (especially in the beginning) put way too much emphasis and hope in mixing instead of working on actual basic music making skills.
If a track is good you will know, even if the mix is not perfect and then you can devote more time into mixing...

Your example for instance... I think apart from the drums being to loud/prominent and maybe the bass being a bit flat, there is not much wrong with the mix. It's the track itself that needs some work. More variety, denser more tweaked (maybe even different) sounds, etc.

Don't get hung up on mixing this early in the process would be my two cents...

thanks for the advice Audiotic!

i do tend to have drums a bit too loud. i suppose this is a habit i've gained over time(many of my favorite songs i've heard always have prominent drums that cut through and hit me in the "chest" ) but will definitely take that into consideration in the future now that you've mentioned it.
the example was a simple sawtooth with the arp player on it, but not a song by any means. just sort of a mixing experiment i guess! i agree fully about there needing more variety, etc. the purpose i suppose, was to keep it as simple as possible while trying to achieve a good frequency balance.

what got me thinking about all of this was reading various posts on the forum about mono checking, using speakers, and how important it is. i do actually have some cheap Krk 5s in my little bedroom that i almost never use because of the sound annoyance to the others around me. sometimes i actually get to turn them on to test some things out, but that is rare.

although this is a career for me, i constantly want to improve my abilities and knowledge in the field. lets face it, i'm not creating top selling records by any means. but in the future, i eventually want to start releasing music under my own name/brand and i want it to be as high of quality as it can be for all listeners and listening environments without needing a mix engineer, mastering engineer and 20 other guys to get the job done for me.


thank you and i really appreciate your input! :]

pLv2

09 Jun 2017

I think mixing can be a very personal thing maybe even more so than composition especially in a community such as this one that is a mixed bag of folks. The soft rock dude might not like a heavy techno kick nor does he have the reference experience to advise on it. Listening to reference tracks in your musical preference and comparing really helps.

Case in point:
aeox wrote:i do tend to have drums a bit too loud. i suppose this is a habit i've gained over time(many of my favorite songs i've heard always have prominent drums that cut through and hit me in the "chest" ) but will definitely take that into consideration in the future now that you've mentioned it.
If your reference tracks have loud drums then your tracks will have loud drums. Why would you listen to somebody else instead of your reference tracks? I can't listen to your track right now but I hope to check it out soon.

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aeox
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09 Jun 2017

pLv2 wrote:I think mixing can be a very personal thing maybe even more so than composition especially in a community such as this one that is a mixed bag of folks. The soft rock dude might not like a heavy techno kick nor does he have the reference experience to advise on it. Listening to reference tracks in your musical preference and comparing really helps.

Case in point:
aeox wrote:i do tend to have drums a bit too loud. i suppose this is a habit i've gained over time(many of my favorite songs i've heard always have prominent drums that cut through and hit me in the "chest" ) but will definitely take that into consideration in the future now that you've mentioned it.
If your reference tracks have loud drums then your tracks will have loud drums. Why would you listen to somebody else instead of your reference tracks? I can't listen to your track right now but I hope to check it out soon.
you also make a good point there.

i was thinking that maybe the drums seemed okay in my headphones, but were a bit loud while listening through someone else's monitors. which made me realize that i've not actually listened to music as a reference in a while since i've been so consumed by actually making the stuff recently.

i guess it's good to take breaks every now and again to go back and listen to these tracks that i really enjoy!

pLv2

09 Jun 2017

Yeah reference tracks will be very helpful. I stopped critically listening to references for a while and my tracks weren't sounding great besides the fact that I wasn't making progress. Now I'm back on the wagon and I feel like I've progressed in just a month of doing music on my days off from work. I agree with Audiotic on the track feedback. Drums are indeed pretty loud but I also think the composition can be tweaked for more balance. I was just thinking it would be cool if the sawtooth morphed into a massive dirty bass that fills out the spectrum when the drums drop. Or just have less aggressive drums from a producing perspective. I advise to be thinking about balance as you make compositional choices and then mixing becomes a hell of a lot easier to the point of not really being an issue.

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Daniel36
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09 Jun 2017

I am not an expert, as a matter of fact, I just opened a thread about some problems I had myself, but as a fellow "headphone mixer", I CAN give you this advice;

When your mix sounds good on your headphones, take all the hard hitting drum elements (kick and snare, mostly) and turn down the faders for as long as you don't hear a difference. Me, personally, I found out that on my headphones I sometimes don't hear the difference in loudness when I turn down the fader, but you will definitely hear the difference when checking it on someone else's monitors.

That, and unfortunately Rob Thompson is right... We have to go towards monitors. Now for me, that is unfortuately not a possibility, but if you happen to have enough room to make that happen, then that is your next investment.

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selig
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09 Jun 2017

Daniel36 wrote:I am not an expert, as a matter of fact, I just opened a thread about some problems I had myself, but as a fellow "headphone mixer", I CAN give you this advice;

When your mix sounds good on your headphones, take all the hard hitting drum elements (kick and snare, mostly) and turn down the faders for as long as you don't hear a difference. Me, personally, I found out that on my headphones I sometimes don't hear the difference in loudness when I turn down the fader, but you will definitely hear the difference when checking it on someone else's monitors.

That, and unfortunately Rob Thompson is right... We have to go towards monitors. Now for me, that is unfortuately not a possibility, but if you happen to have enough room to make that happen, then that is your next investment.
Even the built in speakers of a laptop or desktop can give you SOME information that will help contrast working in headphones alone. Sometimes just having one alternate listening option makes a word of difference!

BTW, the drums don't sound TOO loud to me. They are "strong", but not overpowering, especially towards the end when the other elements rise up to reach the level of the drums (more or less). This is actually something mastering can sometimes take care of, because it's common for limiters/compressors to "eat" the drums (often the snare). All in all it's a least a very close mix with no major problems I can hear!
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Kalm
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09 Jun 2017

It'll completely make a difference in a proper studio environment as you'll hear flaws better. Sometimes you can only hear problems so well in an untreated space and thats the key. However, I wouldn't stress to much over that unless you are able to get to that point. The biggest thing to focus on is mix to your limitations by any means necessary and many times that includes listening to your tracks on multiple sources until its right.

The best thing that worked for me is getting a mentor. Of course I've been in school for 7 years doing this so I've had multiple mentors but it helps a ton. Try to find someone you can rely on that'll listen and challenge your results all the time. If you outgrow that person, find someone else. Tutorial videos will only get you so far.

When in doubt, use a reference. :D this advice is no joke.

I'm also happy to do critiques as well as it also keeps me sharp on my ears, especially when listening to other styles of music away from my own.

Truth be told (and I'm listening through ATH-M50) it sounds clean so far for what I know of that genre. Personal taste wants some more distance between the synth and the kick, like some more room reverb to create depth between the two elements. Also, i would round off the hat some in the HF 16k range <--- but thats subjective to my ears. As far as basic problems, I haven't picked up on anything initially.
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aeox
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09 Jun 2017

Kombucha wrote: So I'll pose this to you . Are you passionate about learning mixing, or do you think your time might be better spent composing and creating? If it's a commercial future you want for your music, perhaps you need to hand it over to someone else. Of all the great artists in history, very few of them worked on both sides of the console.
i'm passionate about it being 100% my product, not having to hand it off to other people. i take joy in all aspects of the music making process. from the start to the finish. for me, mixing and composing aren't so separate. the arrangement and sound design decisions are almost one with the "mixing"process.

the greatest music and mixes i've ever heard are from deadmau5 (IMO) he does not hand off his work to another person, he does it all himself and it's 100% HIS product. something to truly be proud of.

thanks for the reply Kombucha!

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aeox
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09 Jun 2017

Daniel36 wrote:I am not an expert, as a matter of fact, I just opened a thread about some problems I had myself, but as a fellow "headphone mixer", I CAN give you this advice;

When your mix sounds good on your headphones, take all the hard hitting drum elements (kick and snare, mostly) and turn down the faders for as long as you don't hear a difference. Me, personally, I found out that on my headphones I sometimes don't hear the difference in loudness when I turn down the fader, but you will definitely hear the difference when checking it on someone else's monitors.

That, and unfortunately Rob Thompson is right... We have to go towards monitors. Now for me, that is unfortunately not a possibility, but if you happen to have enough room to make that happen, then that is your next investment.
this is exactly what i did after reading Audiotic's advice!

i actually was able to reduce them a bit before even noticing and i do think it helped while remaining the way i had "intended"
selig wrote:Even the built in speakers of a laptop or desktop can give you SOME information that will help contrast working in headphones alone. Sometimes just having one alternate listening option makes a word of difference!
i'd love to get some different monitoring sources ( i don't own a laptop or even a cellphone) but i've been contemplating those MixCubes that everyone talks about.
selig wrote:BTW, the drums don't sound TOO loud to me. They are "strong", but not overpowering, especially towards the end when the other elements rise up to reach the level of the drums (more or less). This is actually something mastering can sometimes take care of, because it's common for limiters/compressors to "eat" the drums (often the snare). All in all it's a least a very close mix with no major problems I can hear!
thanks for the comments on the mix, appreciate it.
Kalm wrote:It'll completely make a difference in a proper studio environment as you'll hear flaws better. Sometimes you can only hear problems so well in an untreated space and thats the key. However, I wouldn't stress to much over that unless you are able to get to that point. The biggest thing to focus on is mix to your limitations by any means necessary and many times that includes listening to your tracks on multiple sources until its right.

The best thing that worked for me is getting a mentor. Of course I've been in school for 7 years doing this so I've had multiple mentors but it helps a ton. Try to find someone you can rely on that'll listen and challenge your results all the time. If you outgrow that person, find someone else. Tutorial videos will only get you so far.

When in doubt, use a reference. :D this advice is no joke.

I'm also happy to do critiques as well as it also keeps me sharp on my ears, especially when listening to other styles of music away from my own.

Truth be told (and I'm listening through ATH-M50) it sounds clean so far for what I know of that genre. Personal taste wants some more distance between the synth and the kick, like some more room reverb to create depth between the two elements. Also, i would round off the hat some in the HF 16k range <--- but thats subjective to my ears. As far as basic problems, I haven't picked up on anything initially.
my mentor has always been Youtube and various streamers, i do agree that tutorials only get me so far. at first they were great but as i gain more insight it's harder and harder to find value in them. although i like to keep reading over the thread posted by Selig regarding common mix mistakes.

appreciate the advice and those things will be taken into consideration in the future!

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Daniel36
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10 Jun 2017

Wouldn't say they are unrelated. In fact, I think improving your mixing skills can make you a better musician and improving your musicianship can make you a better mixer.

But obviously it also depends on what music you are making. I guess that if you are in a rock band, you really don't have the time to dedicate your energy into mixing (as per your post), as much as the drummer isn't going to have time to learn how to play guitar or vice versa, but when you are a pure electronic musician, or at least this holds true for me, mixing really is part of the creative process. I can have the same sound give off a totally different vibe simply because of the loudness, but especially with the type of reverb I choose to use. And that is part of my creative process.

Such as what you can do with the snare, aeox. I think a tiny bit of the right type of reverb can bring it more to life, as well as make it sit better in the mix. Also, that drum break near the end, would be epic if it went into eternity with some kind of echo reverb.

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aeox
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10 Jun 2017

Daniel36 wrote:Wouldn't say they are unrelated. In fact, I think improving your mixing skills can make you a better musician and improving your musicianship can make you a better mixer.

But obviously it also depends on what music you are making. I guess that if you are in a rock band, you really don't have the time to dedicate your energy into mixing (as per your post), as much as the drummer isn't going to have time to learn how to play guitar or vice versa, but when you are a pure electronic musician, or at least this holds true for me, mixing really is part of the creative process. I can have the same sound give off a totally different vibe simply because of the loudness, but especially with the type of reverb I choose to use. And that is part of my creative process.
agreed!
Daniel36 wrote:Such as what you can do with the snare, aeox. I think a tiny bit of the right type of reverb can bring it more to life, as well as make it sit better in the mix. Also, that drum break near the end, would be epic if it went into eternity with some kind of echo reverb.
i have a reverb on the snare at 3% wet with a 1 second decay. you really can't hear it until i take it off and the snare sounds really cheap and "fake".

but you're right, it would probably sound better if i brought up the wetness of the reverb on there to 10% or so. or maybe keep it and add a convolution reverb or something.

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4filegate
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10 Jun 2017

It does not make any sense to select the Maximum sort of spices - the kitchen has it all. How tasty real food can be?

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Carly(Poohbear)
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10 Jun 2017

I mix mainly on headphones too (I ain't great at mixing but I think I'm getting there slowly), you already said you know what sounds decent on your headphones, With Headphones or Monitors the important bit is understanding what they are doing to the sound. e.g. with my headphones they lack a bit in the lows and accentuate the highs, I have an EQ that I put in my master chain that compensates for this which I A/B between when mixing, note I do leave it off for the most part.

REF "Especially so when I'm confronting myself with a mono version of my mix", the main problem here is there have been a couple of video's going around about this, I feel it's wrong to mono stuff on headphones as you are going from one extreme (wiiiiiiiddddddddest stereo field) to another, also the only real way to listen in mono is to listen on ONE speaker only which you can't do with headphones...

Both of my laptop monitors are TV's, and I hate my music being played on them however they do give me pointers if I have something really wrong, I also have found this handy to A/B between for reference. http://www.newaudiotechnology.com/en/pr ... ound-card/


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Oquasec
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10 Jun 2017

Just keep the mix reasonably flat. [Imo]
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aeox
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18 Jun 2017

Oquasec wrote:
10 Jun 2017
Just keep the mix reasonably flat. [Imo]
i try to.. but i really don't know because i just go by what i personally think sounds "good". i got the HD600 headphones because I heard and read many times that they have a exceptionally flat frequency response :D i really don't know what "flat" sounds like though.

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