Is there a way to "record" CV data?

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NekujaK
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Post 04 Nov 2016

Is there a way to record CV data to an automation lane?

For example, if I have an LFO signal from a Subtractor unit manipulating a filter cutoff in Thor, can I "record" the LFO data so it appears as data in an automation lane for the filter?

Many thanks in advance...
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8cros
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Post 04 Nov 2016

Yes, you will help to Thor. Make 2 CV-Audio Converters.
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jam-s
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Post 04 Nov 2016

You can use Thor to record CV into an audio track or you can hook up an "external midi instrument (EMI)" to the CV source and use a (virtual) midi-loopback + remote-override to map it to the control you want to modulate and then record it as automation data.
Both ways are not that straight forward, but there are some blogposts/videos explaining both.
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selig
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Post 04 Nov 2016

8cros wrote:Yes, you will help to Thor. Make 2 CV-Audio Converters.
To do this, take the CV into Thor (or use LFO 2 in Thor), and then route that to an audio output in the Mod Matrix. Patch the audio output into a new Mix Channel and then make that a REC SOURCE (in the Rack View for the Mix Channel).

Now you can create an audio track, and select Thor as the source, then record!

To play back the audio as CV, reverse the process using another Thor (put it in the insert for the Audio Track to keep things organized). Route the Audio from the "To Devices" jack in the Insert into Thor (any audio input), and use the Mod Matrix to route it to a CV output and on to your destination.

Make sense?
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NekujaK
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Post 04 Nov 2016

Thank you for the responses. I'll give Selig's technique a try, but before I do... I just want to make sure this technique will provide the result I'm looking for. Basically, I want the data from the LFO to appear as data points in an automation lane so I can make edits to it and/or copy and paste it to other parameter automation lanes. I'm not sure if Selig's technique is doing that... but like I said, I haven't tried it yet.
Thanks!
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jam-s
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Post 04 Nov 2016

Both ways will give you data you can edit. While the Thor method keeps everything CV the midi loopback method converts the CV to midi/automation data which quite often has more limited modulation options on the parameter to be modulated when you compare it to the CV input. On the other hand it's easier to work with as it's easier to copy and apply to any other parameter. (The Thor method can do this as well, but you will have to duplicate the recorded audio track and hook up the internal Thor to the CV in of the other modulation target.)
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rcbuse
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Post 04 Nov 2016

If you wish you record/edit and then loop CV data, I suggest Shape, but I'm biased!

https://shop.propellerheads.se/product/ ... fo-editor/

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selig
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Post 04 Nov 2016

NekujaK wrote:Thank you for the responses. I'll give Selig's technique a try, but before I do... I just want to make sure this technique will provide the result I'm looking for. Basically, I want the data from the LFO to appear as data points in an automation lane so I can make edits to it and/or copy and paste it to other parameter automation lanes. I'm not sure if Selig's technique is doing that... but like I said, I haven't tried it yet.
Thanks!
No, my method is not recording CV as automation, it would appear I totally mis-read your original post! (sorry about that)
jam-s' method is what you want, if I'm now understanding you correctly.
:)

EDIT: one cool thing you CAN do with my method is load the audio as samples, then use NNXT to play back the audio/CV triggered from notes/CV gates. This can lead to very interesting and unexpected results, especially when playing the samples at different pitches or playing multiple samples at once.
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NekujaK
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Post 04 Nov 2016

Thanks, Selig. Although your method wasn't quite what I was looking for, you opened my eyes to the fact that CV can be recorded to an audio track, which I was unaware of.

Jam's method looks a little more involved than what I was hoping to get into, but I'll try to find some more info describing the technique and perhaps give it a shot.

Maybe it's just me, but it would seem like "bouncing" CV data directly to an automation lane would be a nice feature to have in Reason. Personally, I like having everything laid out visually in front of me. Invisible CVs moving around in the background always makes me feel like I don't have full control over what's going on in a track. But that's just me.

Meanwhile, Shape looks great! Pretty much does exactly what I want, plus a lot more. Thanks for the suggestion, Panda.

I appreciate everyone's responses.
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ljekio
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Post 05 Nov 2016

Another way - JS plugin for Reaper what convert CV data in audio stream as MIDI CC.
Why not loopback with EMI? Because so you cannot reach sharpen envelope.
http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=62754

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Bloma
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Post 29 Apr 2019

Hey, I'm wondering if anyone has been successful with any of these methods? I used this guide (https://www.reasonexperts.com/how-to-re ... th-cv.html) and it seems to work at first, but then stops registering. And when it did work, the automation seems too extreme, as it goes from maximum to minimum almost every time. Is there a way to get LFO data into a automation lane with Shape?

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O1B
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Post 29 Apr 2019

"This can lead to very interesting and unexpected results, especially when playing the samples at different pitches or playing multiple samples at once."
I must try this. Thanks!
selig wrote:
04 Nov 2016
NekujaK wrote:Thank you for the responses. I'll give Selig's technique a try, but before I do... I just want to make sure this technique will provide the result I'm looking for. Basically, I want the data from the LFO to appear as data points in an automation lane so I can make edits to it and/or copy and paste it to other parameter automation lanes. I'm not sure if Selig's technique is doing that... but like I said, I haven't tried it yet.
Thanks!
No, my method is not recording CV as automation, it would appear I totally mis-read your original post! (sorry about that)
jam-s' method is what you want, if I'm now understanding you correctly.
:)

EDIT: one cool thing you CAN do with my method is load the audio as samples, then use NNXT to play back the audio/CV triggered from notes/CV gates. This can lead to very interesting and unexpected results, especially when playing the samples at different pitches or playing multiple samples at once.

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chimp_spanner
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Post 29 Apr 2019

Interesting. As far as I'm aware the only way to input automation data is either using the mouse, or by MIDI input from a control surface. So...maybe this could be achieved using the external MIDI instrument? I mean, it has a CV in that can be mapped to a MIDI CC. I guess you could send it to your interface's MIDI out, run a cable back in to the MIDI input and then use "learn" to assign the MIDI input to a parameter and record it as though it were coming from the movement of a control or something? Would that work? I'd try it but I'm still working! And procrastinating on RT at the same time :D

Of course, bear in mind that automation is automatically reduced by Reason, so it wouldn't be as high res as the source signal, but for slow-to-medium speed modulation I think it'd do just fine.

bidaar
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Post 29 May 2020

why would someone want to have a sound from cv , I havent fully get why would want to do that . like converting cv to audio or .
I only could think of audio to cv for modulating some parameter based on that audio .
can some one just link me toward a video or article . I dont know nothing about audio to cv and cv to audio thanks
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Sterioevo
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Post 29 May 2020

bidaar wrote:
29 May 2020
why would someone want to have a sound from cv , I havent fully get why would want to do that . like converting cv to audio or .
I only could think of audio to cv for modulating some parameter based on that audio .
can some one just link me toward a video or article . I dont know nothing about audio to cv and cv to audio thanks
Search up audio rate modulation. Advantages relate to the resolution of the audio date as compared to cv data (think samples/second).

This has become increasingly popular with the developments in modular synthesis capabilities.

Bear in mind that this thread is quite old and a lot of developments have taken place within Reason when it comes to working with audio rate modulation, and the approach of recording cv as audio was an early method to record waveform shapes as cv automation.

There have been considerable developments with the reason platform in recent years that have opened up a multitude of other possibilities, with numerous devices natively supporting audio rate modulation.

E.g pulsar can send cv and audio rate modulation to pulverisers filter, try both methods out to hear the differences.

bidaar
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Post 30 May 2020

I thought the benefit of this is for example I convert a percussion loop to a cv signal the i can use that cv signal to modulate a synth , this way the synth modulates with the shape and timing of my percussion loops . guess i just was thinking about whole nother thing in this context . buy But I'll research what u said
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Sterioevo
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Post 30 May 2020

there is nothing stopping you from plugging an audio split of your percussion loop into the frequency modulation parameter on the pulveriser (or any other compatible device) and listening to what transpires. you might need to do a bit of tweaking to find some sweet spots, who knows what one might find.
Pulveriser also has a follower that might be more what you are looking for, or the vocoder?...

bidaar
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Post 31 May 2020

thanks ! yeah sounds intresting ! I mean what i said and what u said . but anyways so whats the general and intended use of Audio to cv RE but uberwave ?
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bidaar
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Post 31 May 2020

I mean I saw its video in the shop and looked similar to what i said
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Boombastix
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Post 31 May 2020

Use the Ext Midi Device,
connect the LFO CV to the Assignable CV (set it to 1 [MW]),
set the out port to a Loop Back (ie loopMIDI as an example, and assuming you have it installed).
Then activate another instrument channel and the MW should be moving. Hit record.
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Post 31 May 2020

bidaar wrote:
31 May 2020
thanks ! yeah sounds intresting ! I mean what i said and what u said . but anyways so whats the general and intended use of Audio to cv RE but uberwave ?
That's funny because I did previously think to post a link to this RE, I own it and it comes in handy. I didn't because there are so many different ways to cross the audio/cv divide including many stock device solutions. Thor was/is a groundbreaker in this respect, and there is still mileage in the old vocoder ;)

As boombastix posted there are many different ways to record CV, the underlying consideration is the latency involved with conversions and the resolution of the control signal.

To use an analogy, cv rate modulation is like using pixels/bitmaps and audio rate is pushing towards a vector interpolation. This is a big part of the reason computer/hardware syncing solutions use audio - accuracy provided by sample rate.

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selig
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Post 31 May 2020

i just want to add that recording CV to audio is not just for "audio rate" effects!
For example, I've long been a fan of the Rhodes Suitcase stereo panning, recognizing it's slightly odd response and failing to duplicate it with any known LFO shape. So I "sampled" it.
To do this, I ran a sine wave through the external input, and recorded both channels as audio. Then I looped that and loaded it into an NNXT, and used Audio to CV (Thor IIRC) to convert to a CV which I used to control the level of the signal to be affected. BTW, this was not a simple waveform on the panning, and there would have been no way to replicate this shape with any available tools to my knowledge.
The result was for the first time I was able to hear the classing Rhodes panning applied to any signal, via a slightly off the beaten track approach: sampling a CV (by converting to audio).
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orthodox
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Post 31 May 2020

selig wrote:
31 May 2020
i just want to add that recording CV to audio is not just for "audio rate" effects!
For example, I've long been a fan of the Rhodes Suitcase stereo panning, recognizing it's slightly odd response and failing to duplicate it with any known LFO shape. So I "sampled" it.
To do this, I ran a sine wave through the external input, and recorded both channels as audio. Then I looped that and loaded it into an NNXT, and used Audio to CV (Thor IIRC) to convert to a CV which I used to control the level of the signal to be affected. BTW, this was not a simple waveform on the panning, and there would have been no way to replicate this shape with any available tools to my knowledge.
The result was for the first time I was able to hear the classing Rhodes panning applied to any signal, via a slightly off the beaten track approach: sampling a CV (by converting to audio).
For panning, I would use Audio by Audio amplitude/ring modulation, without any CV conversion.

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Boombastix
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Post 31 May 2020

selig wrote:
31 May 2020
i just want to add that recording CV to audio is not just for "audio rate" effects!
For example, I've long been a fan of the Rhodes Suitcase stereo panning, recognizing it's slightly odd response and failing to duplicate it with any known LFO shape. So I "sampled" it.
To do this, I ran a sine wave through the external input, and recorded both channels as audio. Then I looped that and loaded it into an NNXT, and used Audio to CV (Thor IIRC) to convert to a CV which I used to control the level of the signal to be affected. BTW, this was not a simple waveform on the panning, and there would have been no way to replicate this shape with any available tools to my knowledge.
The result was for the first time I was able to hear the classing Rhodes panning applied to any signal, via a slightly off the beaten track approach: sampling a CV (by converting to audio).
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selig
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Post 31 May 2020

Boombastix wrote:
31 May 2020
selig wrote:
31 May 2020
i just want to add that recording CV to audio is not just for "audio rate" effects!
For example, I've long been a fan of the Rhodes Suitcase stereo panning, recognizing it's slightly odd response and failing to duplicate it with any known LFO shape. So I "sampled" it.
To do this, I ran a sine wave through the external input, and recorded both channels as audio. Then I looped that and loaded it into an NNXT, and used Audio to CV (Thor IIRC) to convert to a CV which I used to control the level of the signal to be affected. BTW, this was not a simple waveform on the panning, and there would have been no way to replicate this shape with any available tools to my knowledge.
The result was for the first time I was able to hear the classing Rhodes panning applied to any signal, via a slightly off the beaten track approach: sampling a CV (by converting to audio).
Soundtoys Panman and Tremolator.
Yea close, but not quite - the real deal is a very odd shape, none have nailed it - most use trapezoid which is close but still, you should see it! Once I sampled it and heard it I realized none were doing it quite right. Maybe it's a quirk of the model I chose, maybe it's "close enough" for most. I'm not a purist, just found it interesting how much different it sounded to every other panner out there.

I should add that the left and right channel have a different shape - left is smoother and slower to fade in/out, right is quicker and less "s-curvy". Again, a very odd shape, even including a slight jump in levels at the point in time where it should otherwise be steady. And it never fully pans all the way to one side, there is always a bit of "bleed". All contributing to it's quirky and difficult to reproduce quality IMO.
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