New Tutorial Vid: Tempo Mapping Wandering Recordings

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kloeckno
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Post 02 Feb 2015

JiggeryPokery wrote:Very funny video. I was constantly thinking, the automation can't be used with anything that involves a delay line, so would still need exporting first.

But "Bounce to new recording" includes tempo automation?! That's a great bit of info! Probably dumb for not even thinking that would be the case.

The video does, however, prove that including the ability to adjust the sensitivity of audio markers would pretty much be considered a necessity now. (I think that's what tt_lab is secretly implying ;) )
No, I believe it embeds tempo information, but when the tempo automation lane gets deleted, it basically timestretches the clip back to a fixed tempo. But I think that's what you meant :)

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ryanharlin
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Post 02 Feb 2015

kloeckno wrote:No, I believe it embeds tempo information, but when the tempo automation lane gets deleted, it basically timestretches the clip back to a fixed tempo. But I think that's what you meant :)
Exactly, speaking in technicalities... audio clips in Reason include meta data that includes tempo information. And that tempo information isn't a fixed number like "this was recorded at 140BPM." It's a fully variable map of tempo data. Incidentally, I've heard it mentioned but haven't tested it myself that this fully fluid tempo map info translates to Take so if you automate tempo slowdowns in your music, it'll come across.

Bigsby
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Post 02 Feb 2015

Great tutorial.  The process at the end is not intuitive, and I've wished Reason had this exact capability.  I see it's in the manual under "Audio and tempo matching."  I doubt I would have found it on my own!  Probably a good idea to save a copy with the tempo mapping in case you need to adjust later.

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tiker01
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Post 02 Feb 2015

ryanharlin wrote:
But there are times when maybe you want to stop in the process before you delete the tempo lane. For example, maybe you've mapped a piano player with a totally great feel that isn't steady but it's great! You could map it and then add all your loops and midi and you'd be able to quantize your midi to his great feel by leaving the tempo map in place and producing it from there. Make sense?
Hi Ryan,

I get the idea but cannot fully understand the steps. If it not too much of an effort could you make a short video or slideshow on the subject.

Cheers,

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craven
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Post 02 Feb 2015

ryanharlin wrote:
Effectively this is quantization, craven. It's just a rather efficient method of dealing with a giant bunch of unknowns.

I'll try to explain: Automatic quantization happens when you have 3 things:

1.) A known tempo for your song
2.) A known tempo your recording is played at
3.) Little human fluctuations within that known tempo that need correcting.

The problem is that when an artist records without a click they often wander and thus ruin item number two in the above list. Make sense?
thanks for your elaborated explanation, I think I understood it already beforehand, but I was still wondering why a computer algorithm could not correct 3) the human fluctuations automatically after it figured out 2) the tempo of the recording (maybe after the user gave some hints, but not as many as in your video :) ).



 I guess, I was more thinking in the direction of markers, because that's how I did it so far as well:
[color=#333333 wrote:tt_lab] My trick is to delete all the markers except from the 1 and sometimes the 3 and quantize.
5 minutes job.

:ugeek:

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ryanharlin
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Post 02 Feb 2015

tiker01 wrote:I get the idea but cannot fully understand the steps. If it not too much of an effort could you make a short video or slideshow on the subject
There's nothing extra to show that I haven't shown. What I'm saying in that quote is that you could stop at 7:54 seconds in the video if you wanted to. You don't have to iron out all the tempo changes to feel like a fixed tempo. The tempo map teaches the sequencer how to play in time with the audio clip so if really wanted to keep the slowing down and speeding up feel of the recording but also wanted to program ReDrum step sequencer drums, for example, you could do the tempo mapping automation lane and then the ReDrum would follow correctly in its speeding up and slowing down, but you'd be able to program it without having to worry about it losing sync with the audio file.

Maybe it's tough to fully understand until you do it but all I'm saying is:

1.) If you love recording but want it to have a fixed rigid feel. Follow all the steps completely
2.) If you love the recording AND the changing tempo but want your sequencer to follow that same changing tempo, just stop the tutorial at 7:54 and start producing at that point.

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Purpleb
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Post 02 Feb 2015


:D  
AWESOME TUTORIAL!!!!!!

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Olivier
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Post 02 Feb 2015

tiker01 wrote:I get the idea but cannot fully understand the steps. If it not too much of an effort could you make a short video or slideshow on the subject
ryanharlin wrote:
There's nothing extra to show that I haven't shown. What I'm saying in that quote is that you could stop at 7:54 seconds in the video if you wanted to. You don't have to iron out all the tempo changes to feel like a fixed tempo. The tempo map teaches the sequencer how to play in time with the audio clip so if really wanted to keep the slowing down and speeding up feel of the recording but also wanted to program ReDrum step sequencer drums, for example, you could do the tempo mapping automation lane and then the ReDrum would follow correctly in its speeding up and slowing down, but you'd be able to program it without having to worry about it losing sync with the audio file.

Maybe it's tough to fully understand until you do it but all I'm saying is:

1.) If you love recording but want it to have a fixed rigid feel. Follow all the steps completely
2.) If you love the recording AND the changing tempo but want your sequencer to follow that same changing tempo, just stop the tutorial at 7:54 and start producing at that point.
Love it... There's beauty in simple solutions :)
Too bad i can't do this trick on note clips..

I like sometimes to just grap Radical piano, press REC and improv.. If however i want to grab pieces of that i'm usually in for a lot of editing to clean it up. Being able to do the same trick on a note clip would be a ridiculous timesaver. Or am i missing something ? Any smart tricks i can use here other then, play it again against a click ? :P
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Leighbeater
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Post 02 Feb 2015

Hi Ryan

awesome video

what if you have elements that are in time say like my example here

http://phead.mu/s/06TgPBqF

drums and bass in time but guitar picking is not

how do i fix the guitar picking while keeping the drums and bass the same, is that possible or i have to wait until discover allows individual stems in a future update?

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ryanharlin
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Post 02 Feb 2015

I just replied to your PM but yes, if its material that you only have access to via discover then a tune like this would need stems to get at the guitar without messing up the drums. That being said, even if you HAD the stems, tempo mapping wouldn't be the right move for a track like the one you linked because the drums are playing in a fixed tempo and it's just that the guitar isn't locking with the drums. It's keeping up with them, just not grooving. For that, tempo mapping isn't the right tool for the job. Just normal slice quantizing in Raason would be all you need. But like I said, if you didn't have dedicated access to the stems or a version with the guitar solo'd, then you couldn't move the guitar slices in this master file without mucking up the drum timing.

Leighbeater
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Post 02 Feb 2015

ryanharlin wrote:I just replied to your PM but yes, if its material that you only have access to via discover then a tune like this would need stems to get at the guitar without messing up the drums. That being said, even if you HAD the stems, tempo mapping wouldn't be the right move for a track like the one you linked because the drums are playing in a fixed tempo and it's just that the guitar isn't locking with the drums. It's keeping up with them, just not grooving. For that, tempo mapping isn't the right tool for the job. Just normal slice quantizing in Raason would be all you need. But like I said, if you didn't have dedicated access to the stems or a version with the guitar solo'd, then you couldn't move the guitar slices in this master file without mucking up the drum timing.
thanks Ryan, yeah just got your PM, i thought my original PM to you didn't go through, thanks for your help

John
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Post 02 Feb 2015

A quick and dirty version would be to do the same thing (disable strech, automate tempo, bounce to new recording) , but instead of drawing in the tempo automation, record the tempo automation live using the tap tempo. Not very exact, but quick. And dirty.

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selig
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Post 02 Feb 2015

Hi Ryan,

While this is indeed quite cool, it's still not as handy as editing slices IMO - allow me to explain. But first I'll just say that knowing both approaches allows you to choose the one that works best - they both end up with the same result. 

The advantages to editing slices:
•You can listen the results as you go by simply hitting play and you'll hear your work at steady tempo, allowing you to correct any mistakes you may have made on the fly.
•You can check your work as you go against your existing REX loops and drum tracks - makes it easy to know how it will sound. 
•You can apply these exact same techniques to Note Clips, something I actually just happened to need to to yesterday! Learn one approach and apply it to both situations!
•You don't have to line things up perfectly like with your tempo method, so you can work quickly - just get the slices close and then Quantize away!
•You can continue to tweak the timing/slices after the initial sync work is done, as you don't have to commit your work to a new audio file at any point.

As for your example… you know I love you so I hate to bust your bubble here, but that song was recorded to a click at 55 BPM - it's just difficult to tell since she plays so freely around the click. The "tell" is that you can set the tempo to 55 BPM and adjust the start time of the original file to bar 1.3.2.70 and the song will stay synced from start to finish - not PERFECTLY synced, but close enough that if you simply import the file to a new session at 55 BPM and apply the offset I specified above, you can then simply hit quantize and end up with what you created with MUCH less work!

In fact, here's a short video I made of me going through those steps, which took about 30 seconds total! ;)
Definitely not up to your video standards, but it's about the data here folks!


Selig Audio, LLC

kloeckno
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Post 02 Feb 2015

John wrote:A quick and dirty version would be to do the same thing (disable strech, automate tempo, bounce to new recording) , but instead of drawing in the tempo automation, record the tempo automation live using the tap tempo. Not very exact, but quick. And dirty.
I have wanted to do this myself, but unfortunately the tempo changes aren't recorded when you use the tap tempo. I wish it were possible but as far as I could tell it isn't.

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ryanharlin
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Post 02 Feb 2015

Great video Giles! Yes there are quick ways to do it that will often work. And there are versions that have some advantages (like you mention a few) however, I stand by my method!! My method is good peoples!  :)

I've found that global quantizes like this can harm the intra-measure feel of the performance as slices not meant for quantization and randomly identified transients are locked into time. They also don't work for player ritardando or even sometimes sustained chords held for a non-tempo specific period of time. So hey, everyone use the method that works for you. For me, I've always found this video's method to be the most reliable sure-fire approach. Plus in a masochistic way, I enjoy doing it. I fall into a groove while I stream netflix in the background. :)

I suppose you could always try the quick and dirty stuff and go from there if you get less than awesome results.

As for her being to a click at 55bpm... that raises more questions than it answers for me because she definitely didn't use the built in click in Take or else it would've come across in the Drop. But good catch... now can we just figure out if she had a click in her ear or something? Who would record to a click in an app with a click but not use that app? A greater mystery, I've never known.

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ryanharlin
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Post 02 Feb 2015

kloeckno wrote:I have wanted to do this myself, but unfortunately the tempo changes aren't recorded when you use the tap tempo. I wish it were possible but as far as I could tell it isn't.
Actually they are. I just tested this to make sure I wasn't imagining things. Create a tempo automation lane in the Transport track of the sequencer, select it, hit record, and tap tempo you way along... the tempo changes are recorded as automation.

sharpblue
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Post 02 Feb 2015

i'm not interested in discover/take etc, but this is a good video, the tempo mapping technique will come in handy etc ;)

kloeckno
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Post 02 Feb 2015

kloeckno wrote:I have wanted to do this myself, but unfortunately the tempo changes aren't recorded when you use the tap tempo. I wish it were possible but as far as I could tell it isn't.
ryanharlin wrote:
Actually they are. I just tested this to make sure I wasn't imagining things. Create a tempo automation lane in the Transport track of the sequencer, select it, hit record, and tap tempo you way along... the tempo changes are recorded as automation.
I'll be damned! I must've left off a step or something. Now I need to try it and figure out what I was missing!

kloeckno
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Post 02 Feb 2015

The tempo automation technique is also good if you have more than one track. The slice marker quantization technique will only work on a single audio lane!

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hollyn
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Post 02 Feb 2015

eauhm wrote:This is so much more pretty a method than i've been using :P Thanks !!
Yes, for me too! Oh how much time I've spent with the razor tool, lol. Thanks, Ryan. This one's a keeper.

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selig
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Post 02 Feb 2015

ryanharlin wrote:Great video Giles! Yes there are quick ways to do it that will often work. And there are versions that have some advantages (like you mention a few) however, I stand by my method!! My method is good peoples!  :)

I've found that global quantizes like this can harm the intra-measure feel of the performance as slices not meant for quantization and randomly identified transients are locked into time. They also don't work for player ritardando or even sometimes sustained chords held for a non-tempo specific period of time. So hey, everyone use the method that works for you. For me, I've always found this video's method to be the most reliable sure-fire approach. Plus in a masochistic way, I enjoy doing it. I fall into a groove while I stream netflix in the background. :)

I suppose you could always try the quick and dirty stuff and go from there if you get less than awesome results.

As for her being to a click at 55bpm... that raises more questions than it answers for me because she definitely didn't use the built in click in Take or else it would've come across in the Drop. But good catch... now can we just figure out if she had a click in her ear or something? Who would record to a click in an app with a click but not use that app? A greater mystery, I've never known.
The first thing I look for in tracks like this is a constant overall tempo. I've been doing stuff exactly like this for a LOT longer than I'd like to think, especially if you include remapping MIDI tracks not recorded to a click! So it's almost second nature to me at this point. ;)

I find that ether way you MUST hit the proper down beats, and the ones that are missed by the transient detection are typically the ones you can't see by eye anyway. 

BTW, I often just simply deleted slices that are affected as you mention above - 99% of the time things go right back to normal! 

But in the end, the idea of moving events and using quantize are the same concepts for notes and audio, which is a plus in my book as I try to learn the fewest 'tricks' necessary to get the job done (creature of habit, for sure). :)


Selig Audio, LLC

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ryanharlin
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Post 02 Feb 2015

selig wrote:I'll just mention my method took all of 30 seconds… ;)
Ah but if you do it in 30 seconds you forego the pleasure of listening to this song in hyperlapse mode. ;)

http://phead.mu/s/C6SPcgaM

:t2018:

Leighbeater
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Post 02 Feb 2015

selig wrote:I'll just mention my method took all of 30 seconds… ;)
ryanharlin wrote:
Ah but if you do it in 30 seconds you forego the pleasure of listening to this song in hyperlapse mode. ;)
ryanharlin wrote:
:t2018:
Man how does he write music like that, wish i could :)

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selig
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Post 03 Feb 2015

selig wrote:I'll just mention my method took all of 30 seconds… ;)
ryanharlin wrote:
Ah but if you do it in 30 seconds you forego the pleasure of listening to this song in hyperlapse mode. ;)
ryanharlin wrote:
:t2018:
I know, I know - you can be SO persuasive sometimes…
That track is priceless - I only WISH I could be as cheesy at will.
;)
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JiggeryPokery
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Post 03 Feb 2015

Tutorial thread moved to Tutorial Forum. Great threads: let's have 'em in the right places! :)

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