Inverted Clipping & Clipping From Inside

Have an urge to learn, or a calling to teach? Want to share some useful Youtube videos? Do it here!
User avatar
MarkTarlton
Posts: 795
Joined: 15 Jan 2015
Location: Santa Rosa, CA

21 Mar 2019

https://www.dropbox.com/s/egcu8etjey85k ... e.mp4?dl=0

check this out...I posted before but never heard from ya

king of kongs refill

User avatar
selig
RE Developer
Posts: 11685
Joined: 15 Jan 2015
Location: The NorthWoods, CT, USA

21 Mar 2019

MarkTarlton wrote:
21 Mar 2019
selig wrote:
21 Mar 2019
And assuming there's no difference in the sound of a push out vs a push in, how can it sound any different oscillating in and out?
by itself you can't, but than add low end of other instruments and you bet you will. the bob clearmountain sample might have had an entire kit mic'd up and it could have been the outside mic, or he could have made up for the sloshy phase/polarity by inverting on the board. it's impossible to tell, and I wouldn't assume because it's in his sample pack that all of his bass drums do this....if it's from a drumkit sample bank where multiple sources are used...would need more info to make that call.
Only if they are in the same room as the original recording, like a floor tom etc. And even then, they would have to be played at the exactly the same time - a few samples early or late, and you may end up with the opposite effect.

Since polarity is related to frequency, you can't know ahead of time how it would interact with other low frequency material. And in my experience, the only time polarity makes a consistent difference is on a single multi-mic'ed instrument.

For example, if the bass and kick play exactly the same time, and neither one changes frequency/pitch, then you MIGHT hear a difference polarity inverting one of the two channels. All bets are off if the timing relationship changes even a few ms, or the frequency changes.
Selig Audio, LLC

User avatar
MarkTarlton
Posts: 795
Joined: 15 Jan 2015
Location: Santa Rosa, CA

21 Mar 2019

https://mixwiththemasters.com/td4

here is jjp explaining it. please watch and than explain this to me.

User avatar
selig
RE Developer
Posts: 11685
Joined: 15 Jan 2015
Location: The NorthWoods, CT, USA

21 Mar 2019

MarkTarlton wrote:
21 Mar 2019
https://www.dropbox.com/s/egcu8etjey85k ... e.mp4?dl=0

check this out...I posted before but never heard from ya

king of kongs refill
This is not at all what we're talking about with regards to absolute polarity. We were not discussing how two samples can interact, we were talking about whether it matters whether the speaker cone moves in first or out.

Also worth remembering, the woofer only represents the lowest frequencies. The attack comes from the tweeter. And in most natural kick samples, as is the case with the sample example I posted, the low frequency doesn't "bloom" until a cycle or so - and with that in mind (and why I posted the example, which was the first random kick I found), it really cannot matter whether it moves IN first or OUT. :)
Selig Audio, LLC

User avatar
MarkTarlton
Posts: 795
Joined: 15 Jan 2015
Location: Santa Rosa, CA

21 Mar 2019

again watch my video than...it's a drum machine, not live drums and it does indeed matter

edit - can you hear what happens when things are out of polarity with just a snare and kick? it becomes very thin. in my opinion it makes a huge difference

User avatar
selig
RE Developer
Posts: 11685
Joined: 15 Jan 2015
Location: The NorthWoods, CT, USA

21 Mar 2019

MarkTarlton wrote:
21 Mar 2019
https://mixwiththemasters.com/td4

here is jjp explaining it. please watch and than explain this to me.
He says he does it but doesn't say why.

I can't hear a difference when flipping polarity on a kick - can you?

There was a craze 10-20 years ago in nashville using phase clickers on all microphones to be sure they were all in the same polarity. Now days I hardly see anyone do it, at best they will do it to all microphones once and label any that are opposite of the majority.

Many times I've had to invert the polarity of the kick to match the rest of the kit - that means it's sucking in first, but it simply can't be heard. Again, do the test I outlined above - if you can correctly identify the correctly polarity even 75% of the time (let alone identify when it has changed) I'll be very impressed. And you'll have far better ears than mine! ;)
Selig Audio, LLC

User avatar
MarkTarlton
Posts: 795
Joined: 15 Jan 2015
Location: Santa Rosa, CA

21 Mar 2019

if you can't hear the difference in my example I posted, I bet a lot of other people can. not everyone can hear phase discrepancies.

User avatar
selig
RE Developer
Posts: 11685
Joined: 15 Jan 2015
Location: The NorthWoods, CT, USA

21 Mar 2019

MarkTarlton wrote:
21 Mar 2019
if you can't hear the difference in my example I posted, I bet a lot of other people can. not everyone can hear phase discrepancies.
Arg! Am I not being clear?

Again, we are not discussing phase interaction between two sources - of COURSE I can hear that. I've specifically said that would happen long before you posted that example, LOL!

Let's try again: what we were discussing was the question about being able to hear the difference on ONE SINGLE SOURCE when flipping polarity.

I have no idea how we are so completely speaking past each other here, my sincere apologies if the problem is on my end!
Selig Audio, LLC

RobC
Posts: 1833
Joined: 10 Mar 2018

22 Mar 2019

selig wrote:
21 Mar 2019
RobC wrote:
21 Mar 2019


I understand that by now, I just didn't know if it would make a difference if the sub woofer first sucks the air in, or pushes it out.
Nope, because we don't hear phase we hear changes in air pressure - and we don't distinguish between negative or positive changes. We need BOTH in order to hear a sound.

For example, what if a woofer just pushes out and stays there: what frequency is the sound? All we would hear is a click. In a theoretically perfect world that click would have infinite frequency response (would contain all frequencies). But in order to achieve that it would need to move infinitely fast from one position to the next. Laws of physics prevent that from happening! More of what we would hear would be due to the non-linearities of the speaker, as it tries to defy physics and instantly move from one point in space to another.

Interestingly, and more to the point, if we do the inverse, have the woofer push IN, we would hear EXACTLY the same thing. How could it sound any different?

And assuming there's no difference in the sound of a push out vs a push in, how can it sound any different oscillating in and out?
Makes sense, I just got confused. But at least this also cleared up that weird effect (or rather artifact) with in-ears.

RobC
Posts: 1833
Joined: 10 Mar 2018

17 Apr 2019

selig wrote:
21 Mar 2019
RobC wrote: And sure! Like I said, removing the negative waveforms, like in the example pics below (or the positive ones ~ can have different sound); or adding them to the top, sort of flipping them up can do various weirdnesses.
Sound like full and half rectifying?

As for the overall subject, and though you’re probably tired of hearing me say stuff like this, I’ve been exploring “level mapping” (didn’t know anyone else used the term) in Reaktor for many years now. That’s partly where the Selig Leveler came from, mapping lower levels to a target level (up to a point).

It’s indeed fun to take the peak levels down to zero, producing what I call the “hole puncher” effect.

LOTS of fun stuff can happen, and my explorations will eventually become a new RE.


Sent from some crappy device using Tapatalk
Since I replied to this comment regarding that other thread about how else (other than pitch change) inaudible frequencies can be used, I'll add here something I forgot:

(This applies to anything, actually, that has a loud enough waveform.) When we take a sample, and set a loop, that is microscopic enough and repeats itself at such rate that we start hearing new harmonics. That is something that opens yet another completely different world of possibilities from our loaded sample. The larger the detail, the more possibilities we have when we sweep the loop section through the sample.
Best thing is, we can previously filter the inaudible frequencies, or maybe change the pitch all the way down, until we hear digital artifacts - doesn't matter, cause for the tiny loop cycle, anything works.

I think this stuff is pretty simple. Definitely not mad science ~ though after seeing Matthias' comment today, I guess people like me are viewed as crazy at the Props, for finding a way to use 192 kHz. Oh well, it's better to know the truth, that to think people would take me seriously.

Post Reply
  • Information
  • Who is online

    Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 11 guests