Some stuff about sound

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RobC
Posts: 318
Joined: 10 Mar 2018

16 Apr 2018

Think a waveform (simplified words EDIT: I meant, I'm gonna use everyday words in this post xD) - and the basic things that can be modulated:

- Pitch
- Position (ex. the start point of a loop)
~ Time (ex. delay)
- Loudness
- Tone (ex. filtering)
- "Phase (inversion)" (sorry, can't find a more humane word)

What else is there?

Also, any dedicated built-in phase rotation in Reason (Y axis) - can that be achieved with messing around with crossfading between two out of phase signals (~ 180 degrees)? EDIT: The latter - Yes. xD


All bullshit.
Last edited by RobC on 17 Apr 2018, edited 2 times in total.

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O1B
Posts: 864
Joined: 26 Jan 2015

16 Apr 2018

Thor's Step Sequencer:


Pitch, Position (LOOP), AMP, Time (delay), Phase (PWM)

Let's see... you could modulate the modulations you already chose.
That's enough modulation for a lifetime.

Just looking at the Envelope. What Kind? ADSR? AD? Loop?
... if you can, modulate the A D S or R with a tempo sync'd (or not) TRI or SIN or RAMP LFO.
If you've never done that, try it and listen to the VELOCITY.

EQ Modulation. Freq or Gain.
Limited only by the inputs and outputs (and, our ability to 'read' them)

but, don't skimp on the quality of the modulators.
- LFO doesn't go slow or fast enough.
- 'Attack' quality of ADSR is shite.
- doesn't give specific enough control.
- maybe it allows you to record your own modulation event.
Image

Reason Chapter 3 Verse 13
"All modulation devices are not created equal."

[NOTE to SELF: Planar 2 to be released (Planar 1 is phased out)]
Image
RobC wrote:
16 Apr 2018
Think a waveform (simplified words) - and the basic things that can be modulated:

- Pitch
- Position (ex. the start point of a loop)
~ Time (ex. delay)
- Loudness
- Tone (ex. filtering)
- "Phase (inversion)" (sorry, can't find a more humane word)

What else is there?

Also, any dedicated built-in phase rotation in Reason (Y axis) - can that be achieved with messing around with crossfading between two out of phase signals (~ 180 degrees)?
Last edited by O1B on 16 Apr 2018, edited 1 time in total.

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Ahornberg
Posts: 1131
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Location: Vienna, Austria
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16 Apr 2018

Every waveform can be decomposed to a set of sinewaves. And each of this sinewaves can be modulated in terms of pitch, phase and volume. The "thing" that does this magic is called Parsec.

RobC
Posts: 318
Joined: 10 Mar 2018

16 Apr 2018

O1B wrote:
16 Apr 2018
Thor's Step Sequencer:


Pitch, Position (LOOP), AMP, Time (delay), Phase (PWM)

Let's see... you could modulate the modulations you already chose.
That's enough modulation for a lifetime.

Just looking at the Envelope. What Kind? ADSR? AD? Loop?
... if you can, modulate the A D S or R with a tempo sync'd (or not) TRI or SIN or RAMP LFO.
If you've never done that, try it and listen to the VELOCITY.

EQ Modulation. Freq or Gain.
Limited only by the inputs and outputs (and, our ability to 'read' them)

but, don't skimp on the quality of the modulators.
- LFO doesn't go slow or fast enough.
- 'Attack' quality of ADSR is shite.
- doesn't give specific enough control.
- maybe it allows you to record your own modulation event.
Image

Reason Chapter 3 Verse 13
"All modulation devices are not created equal."

[NOTE to SELF: Planar 2 to be released (Planar 1 is phased out)]
Image
RobC wrote:
16 Apr 2018
Think a waveform (simplified words) - and the basic things that can be modulated:

- Pitch
- Position (ex. the start point of a loop)
~ Time (ex. delay)
- Loudness
- Tone (ex. filtering)
- "Phase (inversion)" (sorry, can't find a more humane word)

What else is there?

Also, any dedicated built-in phase rotation in Reason (Y axis) - can that be achieved with messing around with crossfading between two out of phase signals (~ 180 degrees)?
These are just the basics, what can be modulated - it's just the sound itself, not the modulation possibilities, or similar ~ that will be another topic. This time, I was wondering if there's something else on a very raw level that can be modulated.

RobC
Posts: 318
Joined: 10 Mar 2018

16 Apr 2018

Ahornberg wrote:
16 Apr 2018
Every waveform can be decomposed to a set of sinewaves. And each of this sinewaves can be modulated in terms of pitch, phase and volume. The "thing" that does this magic is called Parsec.
Parsec is sounding more and more interesting to me. Especially if it can do all the magic with audio from outside. EDIT: I forgot, 'every waveform'. Very promising!

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Ahornberg
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Location: Vienna, Austria
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16 Apr 2018

In digital audio you can go from the "time domain" (e.g. a recording) to the frequency domain (e.g. spectral analysis) but this has a drawback. You will loose transients because the calculation from the time domain to the frequency domain needs a time window that is at least as long as a full cycle of the lowest frequency you want to convert.

On the other hand, a waveform represents a distinct amount of samples that will be looped over and over again. This kind of static waveform can only consist of harmonic overtones with frequencies that are integral multiplies of the base frequency. To construct a "metallic" or "bellish" sound you need inharmonic overtones, so in this case a sound like this doesn't have a static waveform at all.

At the end there are only sinewaves, each representing a single pitch, and sound is created by stacking sinewaves. A filter is simply nothing more than an algorhitm that does a phaseshift on some of the sinewaves coming into the filter by adding a delayd version of itself, and at 180 degrees phaseshift a given frequency is cancelled out. Satuartion is nothing else than adding harmonic frequencies to an incoming signal.

That's the whole magic.

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O1B
Posts: 864
Joined: 26 Jan 2015

16 Apr 2018

Basics... You're funny, dude. Same vein as your listed ideas. I'd like to hear your advanced ideas.

"it's just the sound itself, not the modulation possibilities" That doesn't make any sense. Predictably.

Think a waveform (simplified words) - and the basic things that can be modulated:is what you wrote in OP.

Just load Parcec or Grain and practice. If you want an ADVANCED Grain, grab:

Morphagene: "Macro and Meso to Sound, Micro And Object scales of individual notes and their sonic matter."
Image

or, is this too advanced...?
you are funny.

here's a tutorial... seriously, all of it is applicable in Reason. Six parts if you have the attention span

RobC wrote:
16 Apr 2018

These are just the basics, what can be modulated - it's just the sound itself, not the modulation possibilities, or similar ~ that will be another topic. This time, I was wondering if there's something else on a very raw level that can be modulated.

RobC
Posts: 318
Joined: 10 Mar 2018

16 Apr 2018

Ahornberg wrote:
16 Apr 2018
In digital audio you can go from the "time domain" (e.g. a recording) to the frequency domain (e.g. spectral analysis) but this has a drawback. You will loose transients because the calculation from the time domain to the frequency domain needs a time window that is at least as long as a full cycle of the lowest frequency you want to convert.

On the other hand, a waveform represents a distinct amount of samples that will be looped over and over again. This kind of static waveform can only consist of harmonic overtones with frequencies that are integral multiplies of the base frequency. To construct a "metallic" or "bellish" sound you need inharmonic overtones, so in this case a sound like this doesn't have a static waveform at all.

At the end there are only sinewaves, each representing a single pitch, and sound is created by stacking sinewaves. A filter is simply nothing more than an algorhitm that does a phaseshift on some of the sinewaves coming into the filter by adding a delayd version of itself, and at 180 degrees phaseshift a given frequency is cancelled out. Satuartion is nothing else than adding harmonic frequencies to an incoming signal.

That's the whole magic.
Thank you very much for the deep info! Gotta say, it's a clever solution. I could find use for it, since I always start off with sort of static sound generation before I would start any common sound design changes to the sound (like using an amplifier envelope).

RobC
Posts: 318
Joined: 10 Mar 2018

16 Apr 2018

O1B wrote:
16 Apr 2018
Basics... You're funny, dude. Same vein as your listed ideas. I'd like to hear your advanced ideas.

"it's just the sound itself, not the modulation possibilities" That doesn't make any sense. Predictably.

Think a waveform (simplified words) - and the basic things that can be modulated:is what you wrote in OP.

Just load Parcec or Grain and practice. If you want an ADVANCED Grain, grab:

Morphagene: "Macro and Meso to Sound, Micro And Object scales of individual notes and their sonic matter."
Image

or, is this too advanced...?
you are funny.

here's a tutorial... seriously, all of it is applicable in Reason. Six parts if you have the attention span

RobC wrote:
16 Apr 2018

These are just the basics, what can be modulated - it's just the sound itself, not the modulation possibilities, or similar ~ that will be another topic. This time, I was wondering if there's something else on a very raw level that can be modulated.
No.
This is a very basic topic.
The first step when designing sound.
I was simply wondering if there are other features what a sound is made of.
Modulation is a further step.

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selig
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Posts: 6244
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16 Apr 2018

I think of all sound as being broken down into three categories:
Pitch
Timbre
Volume

PLUS, how each of these three vary over time (their "envelope").

If you want a more technical point of view, then you need to know the frequency, volume, phase, and dynamic range to define any sound as a whole. This is a concept paraphrased from the excellent book "Digital Audio Explained for the Audio Engineer" by Nika Aldrich:


Can't recommend this book enough if you want to fully understand digital audio concepts in depth.
Selig Audio, LLC

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O1B
Posts: 864
Joined: 26 Jan 2015

17 Apr 2018

I think OP is lost if he is looking for Pitch, Timbre, and Amplification.
The Starting Point.

He really should have a go at Square one: Starts at "Pitch, Timbre, and Volume"


He might even learn about the 7 Components of a Synthesizer.

buuutt, ... attention span for learning/ reading is necessary.

RobC
Posts: 318
Joined: 10 Mar 2018

17 Apr 2018

selig wrote:
16 Apr 2018
I think of all sound as being broken down into three categories:
Pitch
Timbre
Volume

PLUS, how each of these three vary over time (their "envelope").

If you want a more technical point of view, then you need to know the frequency, volume, phase, and dynamic range to define any sound as a whole. This is a concept paraphrased from the excellent book "Digital Audio Explained for the Audio Engineer" by Nika Aldrich:


Can't recommend this book enough if you want to fully understand digital audio concepts in depth.
Thank you! I wanted to know if there's anything more, something hidden when it comes to say, an oscillator.
For example, an oscillator generates a sawtooth waveform. We can set up its pitch, audio level (Robert Katz forbid using volume!!! xD - He's right though), horizontal and vertical phase. I can't even add the delay or filtering to that yet, cause it's not a basic feature.

There we go, people not understanding what the hell I want to say, again. xD

RobC
Posts: 318
Joined: 10 Mar 2018

17 Apr 2018

O1B wrote:
17 Apr 2018
I think OP is lost if he is looking for Pitch, Timbre, and Amplification.
The Starting Point.

He really should have a go at Square one: Starts at "Pitch, Timbre, and Volume"


He might even learn about the 7 Components of a Synthesizer.

buuutt, ... attention span for learning/ reading is necessary.
I'm trying to clear the goddamn bricks up!

Image

See, it's all there, but there's just a little bit to fill in.

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Ahornberg
Posts: 1131
Joined: 15 Jan 2016
Location: Vienna, Austria
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17 Apr 2018

I think OP's goal is to create totally new and fresh sounds that were never been heard before on this planet (at least, this is my personal goal too). One great tool for this is Kaleidoscope by 2CAudio http://www.2caudio.com/products/kaleidoscope#_overview It works as an audio effect with up to 512 resonators, each working on a different frequency with an unique envelope. All envelopes are stored in a graphics file and can be edited in a graphics editor of your choice like Gimp or PhotoShop. Kaleidoscope is extremely heavy on CPU and runs best in Reason by disabling the multiprocessor feature.

When it comes to manipulating pitch, I recommend diving into microtonal music. Thor and some other synth provide this KBD-knob in the oscillator section. Some VST synths can load tuning files. The trick is to change the number of notes per octave to something different than 12. Just take a listen to

RobC
Posts: 318
Joined: 10 Mar 2018

17 Apr 2018

Ahornberg wrote:
17 Apr 2018
I think OP's goal is to create totally new and fresh sounds that were never been heard before on this planet (at least, this is my personal goal too). One great tool for this is Kaleidoscope by 2CAudio http://www.2caudio.com/products/kaleidoscope#_overview It works as an audio effect with up to 512 resonators, each working on a different frequency with an unique envelope. All envelopes are stored in a graphics file and can be edited in a graphics editor of your choice like Gimp or PhotoShop. Kaleidoscope is extremely heavy on CPU and runs best in Reason by disabling the multiprocessor feature.

When it comes to manipulating pitch, I recommend diving into microtonal music. Thor and some other synth provide this KBD-knob in the oscillator section. Some VST synths can load tuning files. The trick is to change the number of notes per octave to something different than 12. Just take a listen to
Creating sounds from scratch was what I always did, so that's still the plan, but I want to collect every raw possibility. I'll probably just build my desired sound generator synthesizer in Reaktor. I'll just clear the bricks up in my head, first.

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Ahornberg
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Location: Vienna, Austria
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17 Apr 2018

RobC wrote:
17 Apr 2018
Creating sounds from scratch was what I always did, so that's still the plan, but I want to collect every raw possibility. I'll probably just build my desired sound generator synthesizer in Reaktor. I'll just clear the bricks up in my head, first.
If you got Razor for Reaktor too, I would suggest analysing how this synth works.

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selig
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Posts: 6244
Joined: 15 Jan 2015

17 Apr 2018

RobC wrote:
17 Apr 2018
selig wrote:
16 Apr 2018
I think of all sound as being broken down into three categories:
Pitch
Timbre
Volume

PLUS, how each of these three vary over time (their "envelope").

If you want a more technical point of view, then you need to know the frequency, volume, phase, and dynamic range to define any sound as a whole. This is a concept paraphrased from the excellent book "Digital Audio Explained for the Audio Engineer" by Nika Aldrich:


Can't recommend this book enough if you want to fully understand digital audio concepts in depth.
Thank you! I wanted to know if there's anything more, something hidden when it comes to say, an oscillator.
For example, an oscillator generates a sawtooth waveform. We can set up its pitch, audio level (Robert Katz forbid using volume!!! xD - He's right though), horizontal and vertical phase. I can't even add the delay or filtering to that yet, cause it's not a basic feature.

There we go, people not understanding what the hell I want to say, again. xD
If what you say is not being understood, it may (or may not) be either because you are not specific enough, or you are not using the terms most are familiar with. Audio is a VERY complex subject, and has a language of it's own (technical terms, etc.). If you do not know how to speak that language, then I suggest the book I posted above, or any other number of excellent books, that will give you the foundation to ask questions that can be understood - or maybe reading the books will answer the questions for you. You seem to have many questions - if you are truly curious, dig deeper with some of the excellent resources available online or from books on the subjects you are interested in. Stay curious, which begins IMO with a strong foundation!

As for your questions, some questions and comments:

OK, first, are you talking about synthesis (creating a waveform electronically/digitally), and if so what type of synthesis? Or are you talking about sound in the physical world? Or are you talking about how to capture physical sound as an electrical and/or digital signal?

An oscillator produces a waveform. A waveform defines the initial timbre of the sound. That waveform can be created any number of ways. If you do not understand the characteristics of the fundamental waveforms (sine, triangle, rectangle/square, sawtooth, for starters) I would suggest you start there. If you can already describe the qualities of these waveforms, we can move on from there!

You mean Bob Katz? And exactly when did he forbid using "volume"? FWIW, "Volume" is a measurement of signal strength, and you cannot avoid having volume, or what you have is silence!

There is no "horizontal and vertical" phase. Phase is phase, one measurement. Delay and filtering are processes.
Selig Audio, LLC

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O1B
Posts: 864
Joined: 26 Jan 2015

17 Apr 2018

A Post from 2012. Interesting piggyback.

Allerdings kann es auf Dauer eintönig werden, da man nur dasselbe tut. Level für Level.
https://www.bisaboard.de/index.php/Thre ... 02-Tetris/

Image

EDIT: Good. I see that Selig's in. I'm out. It was fun while it lasted.
Sound to it's elements. But, not that, and not that, and not that, and not that :lol:
... Ok, then.

RobC wrote:
17 Apr 2018

I'm trying to clear the goddamn bricks up!
Image

See, it's all there, but there's just a little bit to fill in.

RobC
Posts: 318
Joined: 10 Mar 2018

17 Apr 2018

I confused terms earlier, so I tried something generic, which doesn't seem to work either and to top it off I also don't have the best communication skills, so it won't work anyway. No point to continue.

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