Steinberg discontinues vst2 for all users

[avasopht]

Let's be honest; Steinberg does not offer much beyond inertial authority.

Usually by now, the standard would be maintained by a consortium of the most prominent figures in digital audio music production.



But Selig is right, that it seems only to cover plugins.

[platzangst]

It's kind of hard for me to get too upset about this, even if the worst-case scenario turned out to be true (which, if I understand the gist of the discussion, it isn't). I already have Reason 9 hanging around just in case I needed to open one of my old projects with the Line6 amps. Not long ago I dug out an old Reaper project, thinking that I might be able to convert it to a Reason project - it was made before Reason had VST support. Turns out some of the VSTs I used then were 32-bit plugins that never got updated to 64-bit, and don't show up in Reason at all, so the project has to stay in Reaper or be rendered to audio for import. My point is, while eternal backwards compatibility is desirable, the harsh reality is that if you live long enough you're going to run into moments like this where you ought to have a plan for what you'll do when the stuff you use stops being supported in some way.

(Of course it's somewhat more easy for me to talk with a Windows system. I haven't used a Mac since the 80s but I can always tell when the OS gets updated by the gnashing of teeth across the Internet regarding compatibility.)

[crimsonwarlock]

Turns out some of the VSTs I used then were 32-bit plugins that never got updated to 64-bit, and don't show up in Reason at all, so the project has to stay in Reaper or be rendered to audio for import.

You can use jBridge (free) or BitBridge to load 32bit plugins. Some VST-wrappers are also capable of this, like BlueCat's Patchwork.

[MrFigg]

Hmm. Use Reason 12 rack plugin to load VST2s in a different DAW ? Does that work?

[crimsonwarlock]

Hmm. Use Reason 12 rack plugin to load VST2s in a different DAW ? Does that work?

The RRP doesn't support VST-plugins

[PhillipOrdonez]

I trust the AI answer on this one (see above). It was pretty convinced it knew the right answer even when I pushed against the answers it gave, it kept reassuring me that people in the forum are misunderstanding or are misinformed

Those chat bots are pretty fckn dumb, and despite the fact they still manage to come to the logical conclusion on this issue! Which i don't find surprising at all. What i do find alarming is the humans who read all that thread and come to OP's conclusion

[MrFigg]

Hmm. Use Reason 12 rack plugin to load VST2s in a different DAW ? Does that work?

The RRP doesn't support VST-plugins

Legal team consulted.

[crimsonwarlock]

My initial perception of all this is that if a VST-plugin developer must sign an agreement with Steinberg, a VST-host (like a DAW) developer will probably also need to sign such an agreement. And if so, Steinberg can cancel that agreement the same way as the plugin-agreement. So, the question that remains: can you develop VST-hosting software without a Steinberg license?

So this is what I found so far: It seems that you need the "VST Module Architecture SDK" (https://www.steinberg.net/developers/), or at least the header-files from that SDK, that are obviously copyrighted by Steinberg. On the Steinberg developers page you can read this:

Please note that there are licensing agreements coupled with the use of development tools which you have to agree.

So far, I've not found anything pointing to the possibility of doing this without the Steinberg SDK and/or a Steinberg license. Also, I cannot imagine Steinberg controlling the plugin-side of VST-technology, without controlling the hosting-side as well (which the above shows they obviously do). Going from there, I'm convinced that the host-developer license contains the same clauses about one-sided termination by Steinberg.

[PhillipOrdonez]

Yes you need a license to host vst. It's understood that future releases won't be able to host vst2 because of this.

[crimsonwarlock]

Yes you need a license to host vst. It's understood that future releases won't be able to host vst2 because of this.

Some people here were thinking host-devs didn't need a license

the only thing I could see is about dropped support for SDK 2.0, which only affects developers as I understand it. i can’t find anything that talks about how this affects VST hosts/devs - do DAW devs even pay a license fee to host VSTs (seems odd if so)?

Host-devs don't need to pay for a license, but they obviously need to SIGN a license, which makes them subject to the clauses therein.

[avasopht]

So far, I've not found anything pointing to the possibility of doing this without the Steinberg SDK and/or a Steinberg license. Also, I cannot imagine Steinberg controlling the plugin-side of VST-technology, without controlling the hosting-side as well (which the above shows they obviously do). Going from there, I'm convinced that the host-developer license contains the same clauses about one-sided termination by Steinberg.

Unless you inferred the API by probing existing VSTs.

ReactOS and Wine do this on a larger scale to replicate the Windows API.

And since VST is just an interface, the precedent was set a long time ago.



The only reason this has not already been done is because there's been no need. Access to the SDK is trouble free and freely available.



Anything lost probably has a good replacement (except for the free TASCAM Kawaii VST using a unique method of hyper sampling the piano, and I think the other good free one came from Steinberg or Yamaha).

[avasopht]

Yes you need a license to host vst. It's understood that future releases won't be able to host vst2 because of this.

Some people here were thinking host-devs didn't need a license

the only thing I could see is about dropped support for SDK 2.0, which only affects developers as I understand it. i can’t find anything that talks about how this affects VST hosts/devs - do DAW devs even pay a license fee to host VSTs (seems odd if so)?

Host-devs don't need to pay for a license, but they obviously need to SIGN a license, which makes them subject to the clauses therein.

A license is needed, but it didn't seem aimed at hosts. I'm sure they'll clarify.

This is some legal overreach, though.

And what happens if a DAW loads a bridge?

What happens if they bundle an existing bridge?

[riemac]

Maybe this one of the reasons why the release of Reason 13 is taking so long?

Maybe they won‘t be the first DAW without VST2 support.

[PhillipOrdonez]

So it seems that the vst3 does appear to require a license to host:

https://steinbergmedia.github.io/vst3_d ... %20license.


However vst2 is a different story according to this post on a juce forum, so can't confirm it's validity:

The license concerns the SDK (which contains the header files needed to compile VST2 plugins/hosts), not the binaries you use the SDK to produce. As long as you have a VST2 SDK licence you are allowed to publish VST2 plugins/hosts, and others are allowed to use them (in binary form) without a license from Steinberg.

https://forum.juce.com/t/hosting-vst2-p ... ense/37079


.

[crimsonwarlock]

Unless you inferred the API by probing existing VSTs.

Yep, there's cleanroom (re)engineering. Already happening for VST2, for example: https://github.com/Xaymar/vst2sdk

However, if it comes to testing the legal validity of this, it will be pretty challenging to prove that there was no knowledge or any form of access to the actual SDK that was re-engineered, as that is a prerequisite for cleanroom development. It's also to be expected that companies like RS will not get involved with the possible legal consequences of that approach.

[selig]

Maybe this one of the reasons why the release of Reason 13 is taking so long?

Maybe they won‘t be the first DAW without VST2 support.

One has to wonder if Cubase will be the last DAW with VST2…

[crimsonwarlock]

However vst2 is a different story according to this post on a juce forum, so can't confirm it's validity:

The license concerns the SDK (which contains the header files needed to compile VST2 plugins/hosts), not the binaries you use the SDK to produce. As long as you have a VST2 SDK licence you are allowed to publish VST2 plugins/hosts, and others are allowed to use them (in binary form) without a license from Steinberg.

https://forum.juce.com/t/hosting-vst2-p ... ense/37079

I found that post too. The problem is not about having a VST2 SDK license (as stated in that post), you need a >>> valid <<< VST2 SDK license. And the existing VST2 license contains clauses that let Steinberg INVALIDATE the license at a certain point in time, which is precisely what they are doing. There are similar clauses in the VST3 license btw. You can check the license agreement section 9 sub 3 and 4 for this: https://steinbergmedia.github.io/vst3_d ... eement.pdf

[crimsonwarlock]

One has to wonder if Cubase will be the last DAW with VST2…

Cubase 13 already doesn't have VST2 support anymore. What am I missing here?

[selig]

One has to wonder if Cubase will be the last DAW with VST2…

Cubase 13 already doesn't have VST2 support anymore. What am I missing here?

I'm only able to report what I found here, I'm not a Cubase user myself: (did I misread this?)
Cubase Pro 13.0.30
"Cubase supports the VST 2 and VST 3 plug-in standards."

https://steinberg.help/cubase_pro/v13/e ... ins_c.html

[crimsonwarlock]

I'm only able to report what I found here, I'm not a Cubase user myself: (did I misread this?)
Cubase Pro 13.0.30
"Cubase supports the VST 2 and VST 3 plug-in standards."

https://steinberg.help/cubase_pro/v13/e ... ins_c.html

I'm not a Cubase user either. But on other music forums, Cubase 13 users are asking for wrapper suggestions to get their VST2 plugins running in C13.

A simpe Google search gives these:
https://helpcenter.steinberg.de/hc/en-u ... scontinued
https://forums.steinberg.net/t/vst2-wor ... -13/877087
https://www.gearnews.com/steinberg-disc ... -plug-ins/

EDIT: I was partially wrong, VST2 is still working in C13

But this was 24 monts ago:

Moreover, within the next 24 months, Steinberg's host applications and plug-ins across macOS and Windows will offer VST 3 compatibility only.