Another reason for you to hate Waves

[dan_g]

this is really bad news. a really bad move by waves.


luckily i only have really bought a few plugins of them besides some freebies. has anyone a good alternative to C6 Multiband Compressor and L1 Ultramaximizer?

so i'm quoting my self here. i'm sure anybody knows the spreadsheet with the alternatives by now.


so i also did some research before looking into that spreadsheet, an i was so dumb getting C6 when there was a better option directly in my sight. i own Toneboosters EQ for years now and have never thought of trying Toneboosters MBC. this thing has replaced my C6 instantly. also L1 is replaced with Kratos 2 and i'm even going back to the old Ozone Maximizer RE.

[dvdrtldg]

What if this is all just a devious ploy to get people to stop whining about Waves Update Plan?

They'll let everyone have a meltdown about the forced subscription for a few weeks, then say "OK OK, existing licence users can still update their plugins" and you'll never hear a peep of complaint about WUP again. Genius!

[robussc]

The economics of software is weird. On the one hand it's the only product we buy that we expect to get better (or at least updated) after we purchase it (and the cost of doing that has to be paid from somewhere). But on the other hand it's one of the few products where making 10,000,000 copies costs nothing. The profit margin on software is astronomical compared to many other product areas and one would think there would be enough left from that to cover the maintenance expenses

If only it were that easy.

Yes, it costs you nothing to sell another copy, but you still have to:
1. Develop it (including testing and support).
2. Market it (which still gives a cost to each sale).
3. Continue paying developers.
4. R&D (many of which will go nowhere).
5. Licensing (e.g. buying sounds, or for the use of a hardware brand name).
6. Office costs.
7. Hardware costs (for development and testing).

Sure, but most of those costs are also shared by all other business.

In a nutshell, we know that it's not a goldmine (hence why some DAWs went out of business completely or were bought out).

So no, the profit margin is not astronomical, because you first need to break even, and then continue to break even. This will be harder as each year goes by (until you end up with people complaining that you're taking too long to introduce features your competitors have, etc.)

I agree that the profit has to last and is a real problem for small devs. But for a big player like Waves? And, I would posit, DAW development is much harder than plugin development as you have to deal with a lot more variables and expectations.

But I won't argue it further. I just find the software industry to be a interesting economic area (and I do work in software development - though not audio software, so I'm not completely guessing and are we considering SaaS? Or course we are...)

And just to double check myself:

Monosnap gross margin on software - Google Search 2023-03-27 16-28-52.png (44.21 KiB) Viewed 2141 times

Most businesses would kill for that kind of margin!

[jam-s]

Hey, all you "happy" (ex-)customers, come over, join us at the dumpster fire!

[QVprod]

Started phasing out my waves plugins because of WUP. I’m only down to one now that I got for free recently. NLS. I’ll be looking for a suitable replacement for that soon. Possibly a plugin alliance equivalent.

[avasopht]

Monosnap gross margin on software - Google Search 2023-03-27 16-28-52.png

Most businesses would kill for that kind of margin!

Note that he's saying a "good gross margin" for "companies he works with".

While most businesses would kill for that margin, the economics are completely different to most businesses (which is why they're not doing SaaS).

Software companies go out of business, or struggle to get enough sales to grow their team (hence the many complaints of RS being slow).

But the key thing is that the success of SaaS doesn't make perpetual licenses just as good, nor do the margins of the companies Monosnap work with give any indication of this market.

Waves do seem to be doing well (no idea of their margins though).

But then Twitter runs at a loss. It's not all peaches in the software world.

In any case, music software companies face a very pressing problem. We're reaching the point of diminishing returns when it comes to instruments and effects, and it's not as easy to just release a product with more processing power as you can with hardware, as it's all done on the user's CPU.

Roland Cloud is largely based on hardware and sounds that are over 25 years old, and yet it's still relevant today. I doubt anyone would be left behind if they never upgraded for the rest of their life.

I was amused in 2008 by my friend's insistence that his Roland rompler (either a JV or XV series) with a few cards is all he'll ever need.

I get where he's coming from now.

While I have bought lots since 2006, I almost felt the same about what I had back then (but was still trying to figure out how to get the workstation sound).



It's funny, I see some long-time users criticizing R+, but then see some new users feeling blown away by its offering.

I guess there's a reference point we all make with what we think is all we need for our desired sound, and anything beyond that, no matter how impressive is ignored. After all, what's a new synth to someone who samples? And what's a modelled piano to someone who just needs 90s digital piano sounds?

Of course, I don't know their financials or the innards of this market, but there's an impending point of diminishing returns and market saturation ahead. And the way music software has been sold for the last 25 years might be due for retirement any minute now.

Maybe everything will eventually be bought out by hardware companies, or companies like BandLab. But the business model of perpetual licenses for music software might become riskier by the year/quarter.

[joeyluck]

I think subscriptions make sense for a company that has that many plugins that also wants to continue to update and maintain all of them.

The WUP was an attempt to fund continued development. Some people use very old plugins and many people aren't buying them. Other companies would probably just ditch support for a great number of plugins after so many years.

So even though I am not a fan of subscriptions, or their annoying waveshells, I feel like there should be a hats off to them for trying to find a way to keep their entire inventory supported and up to date.

[kuhliloach]

I see no need to install or use my old plugins by Waves. I may have re-installed them had they gone a better direction but trying to milk people this way is terrible.

[avasopht]

I see no need to install or use my old plugins by Waves. I may have re-installed them had they gone a better direction but trying to milk people this way is terrible.

Well, that all depends on whether they're milking users or are just trying to stay afloat ...

[robussc]

Of course, I don't know their financials or the innards of this market, but there's an impending point of diminishing returns and market saturation ahead. And the way music software has been sold for the last 25 years might be due for retirement any minute now.

Maybe everything will eventually be bought out by hardware companies, or companies like BandLab. But the business model of perpetual licenses for music software might become riskier by the year/quarter.

Great points. Definitely interesting times.

[danc]

Of course, I don't know their financials or the innards of this market, but there's an impending point of diminishing returns and market saturation ahead. And the way music software has been sold for the last 25 years might be due for retirement any minute now.

Maybe everything will eventually be bought out by hardware companies, or companies like BandLab. But the business model of perpetual licenses for music software might become riskier by the year/quarter.

Great points. Definitely interesting times.

Totally agree about the market of selling plugins and it now going into a season of diminishing returns and market saturation. Although the pull of GAS is super strong there is a limit to the number of compressors, reverbs, gates, channel strips, choruses, phasers, side-chains tools, instruments (etc etc.) one needs to make music.

I think there will be a lot of fall-out over the next few years, with smaller plugin providers collapsing (or as discussed - merging with the big boys).

And... I have noticed that 2023 is extremely quiet with new/interesting plugins coming onto the market. And then I was thinking... yeah... but seriously... what do I actually need that I don't already have? Nothing probably. Ok - the claim of adding AI to plugins is looming... and realised already by some companies... but to be honest we do already have what we need - anything else is just frothy "want".

ALSO - I moved over to a better PC the other day and found that registering some of my plugins didn't work because the online activation process was switched off because that particular company didn't exist anymore. So - for me, that was the end of using those VSTs as there wasn't an offline process. How many more plugins will fall into that category, with a limited shelf-life of only working on current machines.

[EdGrip]

Waves were always a bad vibes company and I am glad my instincts continue to be proved right.

[Despondo]

Egg on face. Looks like they heard all of the outcries.

https://www.pro-tools-expert.com/produc ... tid=Zxz2cZ

[joeyluck]

Egg on face. Looks like they heard all of the outcries.

https://www.pro-tools-expert.com/produc ... tid=Zxz2cZ

Might've been their plan all along. Who knew people would be begging for the WUP back lol

[crimsonwarlock]

Egg on face. Looks like they heard all of the outcries.

https://www.pro-tools-expert.com/produc ... tid=Zxz2cZ

Lessons to be learned for other companies. Or to be more precise, I hope Reason Studios take notice

[Neo]

338509204_733895015016364_6389782737394384338_n.jpg (20.42 KiB) Viewed 1911 times

Dear Waves community,
My name is Meir Shashoua, and I’m the CTO and Co-Founder of Waves Audio.
Over the past few days, many of you have expressed concerns about our decision to discontinue perpetual plugin licenses and our move to an exclusive plugin subscription model. I would like to start by apologizing for the frustration we have caused many of you, our loyal customers. We understand that our move was sudden and disruptive, and did not sufficiently take into consideration your needs, wishes, and preferences. We are genuinely sorry for the distress it has caused.
After respectfully listening to your concerns, I want to share with you that we are bringing back the perpetual plugin license model, side-by-side with the new subscriptions. You will again be able to get plugins as perpetual licenses, just as before.
In addition, those of you who already own perpetual licenses will once again be able to update your plugins and receive a second license via the Waves Update Plan—again, just as before. This option, too, will be available alongside and independently of the subscription program.
We are currently putting all our efforts into making perpetual licenses available to you again, as quickly as possible. In the meantime, you can keep up-to-date on this news page: https://www.waves.com/news/perpetual-wa ... s-are-back where we will post the latest updates on perpetual license availability.
I would like you to know that we are committed to you, our users. We listened to your feedback, and we will continue to listen to you. Waves is a company filled with users and creators, just like you, and we are all as passionate about the products as you are. With this in mind, we will strive to find the way to make things right by you, and hopefully regain your trust.
Thank you for your feedback and continued support—I wish you all the best,
Meir Shashoua
CTO and Co-Founder
Waves

https://www.facebook.com/waves

[avasopht]

Sounds like free PR, ... bonus points if they turn it into a subscribe to own programme

[joeyluck]

Sounds like free PR, ... bonus points if they turn it into a subscribe to own programme

I think so too. That's way too fast for them to flip things back.

They knew what the response would be and they allowed no time to see if people would adapt.

And now people appreciate their upgrade plan

[selig]

Sounds like free PR, ... bonus points if they turn it into a subscribe to own programme

I think so too. That's way too fast for them to flip things back.

They knew what the response would be and they allowed no time to see if people would adapt.

And now people appreciate their upgrade plan

Just another case of history repeating…
Way back around late 1990s Waves was the ONLY company to charge for an update that added automation to plugins in Pro Tools. Took just about as long for them to get a bunch of negative feedback and then “change their mind”. Not long after that they added WUP, and I left the ‘fold’ so I’m not sure if there were other examples…

[tallguy]

And just like that, I received an email from Waves

After respectfully listening to your concerns, I want to share with you that we are bringing back the perpetual plugin license model, side-by-side with the new subscriptions. You will again be able to get plugins as perpetual licenses, just as before.

That didn't take very long, they must have gotten so much s**t from their customers

[MuttReason]

Sounds like free PR, ... bonus points if they turn it into a subscribe to own programme

I think so too. That's way too fast for them to flip things back.

They knew what the response would be and they allowed no time to see if people would adapt.

And now people appreciate their upgrade plan

Hmmmm... actually, as someone who's worked on more corporate crises in my day jobs over the years than I care to remember.... that looks a LOT to me like textbook corporate crisis management.

You can write a grovelling CEO apology email pretty damn quickly when you've drafted many dozens of them I recognise the layout, structure and language here... it's the same old 'we screwed up, we didn't listen, you told us, now we're listening, we're sorry' template I've seen time and time again.

I very much doubt it's a PR masterplan. Or put it this way.... if Waves thought this *was* a PR masterplan then it's the dumbest ever because right now I'm pretty sure a bunch of people with Waves plugins have been busily researching alternatives, and a bunch of them won't come back. I know I have, and won't!

In other words, I think Waves really did make an almighty mess of it all, got hammered within hours, looked at the numbers (it's a competitive market full of Waves substitutes if your customers are p*ssed off enough), got a massive fright... called in the crisis comms people, and here we are.

It's people power in action, people.

[avasopht]

I very much doubt it's a PR masterplan. Or put it this way.... if Waves thought this *was* a PR masterplan then it's the dumbest ever because right now I'm pretty sure a bunch of people with Waves plugins have been busily researching alternatives, and a bunch of them won't come back. I know I have, and won't!

Hmm, but would the "master plan" be a dumber idea than ending perpetual licenses without any warning, cool off, refund offer, or subscription free for a period equivalent to cost of purchases?

[Popey]

Who knows the master plan but it cannot have been a good look that you tube was full of wave alternative videos and hate.

Personally I would not see the value if they foresaw this amount of negativity. I would not be surprised to see a fair few fully wupped licences for sale as people transition.

[crimsonwarlock]

I'm pretty sure they messed up. The amount of negative reactions by many of the very visible community influencers, within 24 hours after them announcing subscriptions only, was impressive to say the least. I bet Plugin Alliance got a nice infusion of new customers overnight.

[bxbrkrz]

Don't hate Waves. Hate the game. Force a change of the game. We'll then get better players.